188 réponses à ce sujet

[Valmy]

Zevrans a rogue, but hes so feminine that he can be grouped with the women.

Seriously?  He is an assassin that sleeps with everything that moves.  That sounds like a male archetype to me...I guess just because he is an Elf?  He even has a really deep voice.

I don't see it at all...but some of you guys seem to think that unless you have biceps the size of a tree trunk you do not deserve to be a male or something.

[Valmy]

Ok, Dragon Age may mark the point in RPG history when developers go that wee bit too far in putting women into the combat/adventurer role.

There are three female companions...two are mages...and one is a rogue with an archer specialty.  In what way is that putting women in the combat/adventurer role more than usual?  That is exact same role women have played in RPGs since forever.

You talk like the game is full of Amazons...

[Melheyon]

Moves stance appearance... and my sounds busted so i only have the visuals to go by.

He looks by far more feminine than the other elves in the campaign.



And basically the main reason why men are warriors, are that we're expendable.



Thinking strictly mathematical, take two tribes, each of 100 soldiers, and 100 civillians.

Tribe A s soldiers are all male, tribe Bs all female, and the civillians are of the opposite gender.



A war comes, and half the army is destroyed,

Now we got one tribe with 100 women and 50 men, and another with 100 men and 50 women.



Tribe A can recover its numbers much faster. Number of births are not as dependant on the number of men as it is on women. How utilised this would be would depend of cultural norms of course.

[gurugeorge]

Why are we so keen to force women into the warrior (this includes the mages; their not out there doing charity work, but killing enemies) role, on the basis of an ideal of equality and 'rights' to participate?

You misunderstand the point - it's not about "forcing" women into any role, it's about not setting up cultural barriers to their participation in whatsoever form of activity they wish to participate in, on an equal footing with men, if they have the chops for it.  (Obviously, any functional task has a certain performance standard - and if a woman can perform well enough to hit that standard, there should be no problem.)

[Dark83]

Why do people keep bringing up Joan d'Arc? She wasn't some super-warrior. She was a 17 year old illiterate farm girl. She didn't chop people up, her primary effect was on morale.

She was a skilled tactician and a successful strategist. Not a warrior, but a leader.

[Spongecakes]

Zevran is manly to the core.

His feminine quirks only accentuate his many manly traits.

Have you ever spoken to him at all?

[Zenthar Aseth]

Zevran is about as manly as the Miss USA

[Dark83]

Zev's a metrosexual. The fact that he's bi is probably a subconscious implication on Bioware's part, hah.

[TheGreenLion]

Well think of it this way, back in say...the 1920s or so women were basically a housewife and the man did the providing period, that's how it was and how it stayed for a LOOOONG time. Then World War II came up and a large amount of the men shipped off to go kill those bastard ****'s/Italians/Japanese and what have you...which left women to fill in for ALL the jobs that previously men had done exclusively (Rosie the Riveter anyone?). That's when things changed in light of women's capabilities, still it was not quite what you'd call "equality" back then.



Today, we have many women in the armed forces doing actual fighting and doing dangerous jobs, and could probably kick my ass bare-knuckled. That's what they want to do, let em do it and more power to them if they can get the job done which, 99% of the time...they can.



Women aren't weak in todays society, while men can build more muscle comparitively as a martial arts guy previously stated, it doesn't take muscle exclusively to put the smack down on someone.



How boring would it be if Leliana/Morrigan/Wynne just hung around camp washing your armor/clothes and cooking, clucking like chickens and being nothing but ambient characters? Supremly boring, really....Fable II had a family option like that but truly unrealized seeing as you just give them gifts and beat the bush (sound familiar?).



I like my fiesty warrior women and if you want to be historical in terms of weapons, weapons as a rule weighed less than 5 pounds, you want to swing it all day not crush one opponent and be spent. Anyone could train to swing a weapon of that size, anyone. Armor was heavy sure, but if you wore armor like soldiers did back then (day and night), that was a normal everyday weight to carry, period.

[WobblySpacePirate]

Last post before I stop watching the thread. The real QFT was the
person who said "Posting in the thread that wants to go back to 1950."

Ordo_Wells wrote...
<snip discussion of how Ordo_Wells penis is sufficiently big>
THEN <well, strictly speaking, prior to. but I don't want to get too picky>

"I would like to mildly point out that you are actually sexist. Being
hateful and mean isn't the entire basis for being sexist, assuming
blanket superiority over women is."

OK, you're Bill OReilly, right?  how could you so grossly misrepresent what I've said ?  REad again. 
"Blanket Superiority"?    Read again. 
How is my talking about women's combat potential in a action-game format resonate with "blanket superiority"?

I don't want to call you an idiot.  I really don't.  Maybe you just read someone elses post, where they also misrepresented my words and drew false conclusions.....

Also, Tell me, please, what is sexism?  Is it saying that Women and Men are fundamentally different?

Your 'combat potential' argument is really a smokescreen for wanting to exclude female figures from your party. It doesn't take much digging to find you repeatedly wanting a 'Merlin' 'wise-sage' archetype. Clearly you haven't sat down and spoken with Wynne (or Zevran for that matter according what other people have said, but then again neither have I). Wynne's entire characterisation is that of the 'wise-sage.' It may not be a Gandalf-style wisdom (which borders on all-knowing) but that archetype is, frankly, a dull rehashing of cliches.

You are sexist because, at best, you refuse to speak to Wynne and give her the opportunity to be a source of wisdom and insight. At worst, you have spoken to her and decided 'Nope, not wise/insightful/mysterious/pointlessly-ambiguous enough.' Either way you have decided she is not up-to-snuff, and it is because of her gender.

You have rejected an intelligent woman because in your mind she cannot stand up to your conception of an intelligent mind. In this regard, I think the reality is that it is your intelligence that is compromised, and not that of Wynne.

[blakskyz]

Sounds like the OP loves a sausage fest.  

[CJohnJones]

Zevran is at least as masculine as Brad Pitt. He is a little androgynous but not so much that he would show up on gaydar at a distance.



Agility is as good as strength. That is the action fiction trope that we are dealing with. It is not about the sexes, really, it is about whether anyone is nimble enough to move their whole body into the reach of an armed and armored person and deliver an instant kill so fast that the other person doesn't even get a stab in. It is the same fictional idea as when someone can spin around and knock a gun out of someone's hand faster than the other person can pull a trigger. It isn't real, but it is fun.



Anyone ever see Rob Roy? If you have, imagine that fight with Liam Neeson and Tim Roth, but put Neeson in plate, where he could only be attacked behind the knee, inside his elbow and under his armpit. Even there he has protection, but it is thinner. Whether with a woman or man, that is the fight we are talking about. Nobody is that nimble, accurate or quick.



Oh, and guns changed everything. Much respect to the women in every police and military force not too stupid to allow them. there is little or nothing that they can't do in those circumstances.

[Zenthar Aseth]

WobblySpacePirate wrote...

Last post before I stop watching the thread. The real QFT was the
person who said "Posting in the thread that wants to go back to 1950."

Ordo_Wells wrote...

THEN

"I would like to mildly point out that you are actually sexist. Being
hateful and mean isn't the entire basis for being sexist, assuming
blanket superiority over women is."

OK, you're Bill OReilly, right?  how could you so grossly misrepresent what I've said ?  REad again. 
"Blanket Superiority"?    Read again. 
How is my talking about women's combat potential in a action-game format resonate with "blanket superiority"?

I don't want to call you an idiot.  I really don't.  Maybe you just read someone elses post, where they also misrepresented my words and drew false conclusions.....

Also, Tell me, please, what is sexism?  Is it saying that Women and Men are fundamentally different?

Your 'combat potential' argument is really a smokescreen for wanting to exclude female figures from your party. It doesn't take much digging to find you repeatedly wanting a 'Merlin' 'wise-sage' archetype. Clearly you haven't sat down and spoken with Wynne (or Zevran for that matter according what other people have said, but then again neither have I). Wynne's entire characterisation is that of the 'wise-sage.' It may not be a Gandalf-style wisdom (which borders on all-knowing) but that archetype is, frankly, a dull rehashing of cliches.

You are sexist because, at best, you refuse to speak to Wynne and give her the opportunity to be a source of wisdom and insight. At worst, you have spoken to her and decided 'Nope, not wise/insightful/mysterious/pointlessly-ambiguous enough.' Either way you have decided she is not up-to-snuff, and it is because of her gender.

You have rejected an intelligent woman because in your mind she cannot stand up to your conception of an intelligent mind. In this regard, I think the reality is that it is your intelligence that is compromised, and not that of Wynne.

LOL, Wynne. She's about as wise as a turtle on a bad day.. she's the most annoying party member by far because she is given wanna-be wise lines and then she's trying to choke the PC on them... really, she's about as far from the wise sage as you can get. It's like Wynne read a very bad book and she's taking her stuff out of it..

And it's not because Wynne is female.. it's because writing a character like her just doesn't work.. either you give the wise sage character some game related info that's good or just fairly vague lines... Wynne's style is more like a soon-to-be-retired lower grade teacher is talking to a 7 year old and then expects him/her to be grateful..

So yeah, Wynne is NOT intelligent... but as she is but a puppet of the writers of DAO, I rather say they did not write her to be intelligent (or intelligently, depends on their intentions)

Oh, and guns changed everything. Much respect to the women in every police and military force not too stupid to allow them. there is little or nothing that they can't do in those circumstances.

Only someone with no knowledge about gunfighting would say such a thing. Guns did not change everything. Especially in police work where you can't basically use them ever...

I am of the opinion that women certainly have their places in the military and police forces. In the military there are plenty, plenty of jobs they can excel at.. the same in police. Especially as a police, a woman officer might defuse a situation whereas a man could not have. However, when there is a physical confrontation.. at best, women tend to be on the way and at worst they're endangering their partner. Yes, there are exceptions. I know a female bouncer (albeit he's more of a guy, really) who can more than handle most guys... but ALL of the female officers I've seen (and everyone else I know who has met female officers..).. they'd only be in the guy's way in a fight. And I would never, ever give them a gun. Not because they'd be ineffective with it.. but because of how easy it'd be to disarm her and use the gun against her and her partner. I am NOT saying it is any different for some guys... but on average the ratio you can trust in a physical confrontation is sky high in men compared to women.

And about military forces that are too stupid to allow women in... I think almost every military allows women at least in some positions. It is NOT stupidity, however, when you don't allow them to actually fight. If you do, that's stupidity. The expenses and risks of that far outweigh the gains.. not just because they would have a lower fighting capability/carrying capability etc.. but because of things such as hygiene, men's will to protect women, separate sleeping quarters etc etc. Allowing women to be on the front lines is just "Political correctness". 

Modifié par Zenthar Aseth, 25 novembre 2009 - 06:48 .

[Dark83]

Women in the military worked well historically. Them ****es be crazy.

[Zenthar Aseth]

Mmm mmm, where/when? Do you mean the Viking Battle Maidens? Or the notorious valkyries?

[Ammadessi]

CJohnJones wrote...

Zevran is at least as masculine as Brad Pitt. He is a little androgynous but not so much that he would show up on gaydar at a distance.

I'm beginning to think that the definition for manly for anyone arguing against Zevran's masculinity has a lot to do with machismo, steroids, and buzz cuts and other false symbols of masculinity.

Long hair =/= feminine, slim build =/= feminine, bisexual =/= feminine. There is hardly anything in any of Zevran's mannerisms that screams feminine. If you really want to apply the logic that hypermasculinity is the only way to be manly, then Alistair is a girl in a fluffy pink dress.

[Zenthar Aseth]

Alistair is not manly. At best he's boyish.

[Eskarne]

Ammadessi wrote...
... then Alistair is a girl in a fluffy pink dress. 

Isn't he?

[Eskarne]

double 

Modifié par Eskarne, 25 novembre 2009 - 07:12 .

[Ammadessi]

Eskarne wrote...

Ammadessi wrote...
... then Alistair is a girl in a fluffy pink dress. 

Isn't he?

I'd pay for DLC that actually has the king make him put on a dress and dance in front of the darkspawn horde. Comedy gold.

[Eskarne]

Ammadessi wrote...

Eskarne wrote...

Ammadessi wrote...
... then Alistair is a girl in a fluffy pink dress. 

Isn't he?[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/blushing.png[/smilie]

I'd pay for DLC that actually has the king make him put on a dress and dance in front of the darkspawn horde. Comedy gold. 

You and me both man 

Modifié par Eskarne, 25 novembre 2009 - 07:14 .

[CJohnJones]

Zenthar Aseth wrote...

WobblySpacePirate wrote...

Last post before I stop watching the thread. The real QFT was the
person who said "Posting in the thread that wants to go back to 1950."

Ordo_Wells wrote...

THEN

"I would like to mildly point out that you are actually sexist. Being
hateful and mean isn't the entire basis for being sexist, assuming
blanket superiority over women is."

OK, you're Bill OReilly, right?  how could you so grossly misrepresent what I've said ?  REad again. 
"Blanket Superiority"?    Read again. 
How is my talking about women's combat potential in a action-game format resonate with "blanket superiority"?

I don't want to call you an idiot.  I really don't.  Maybe you just read someone elses post, where they also misrepresented my words and drew false conclusions.....

Also, Tell me, please, what is sexism?  Is it saying that Women and Men are fundamentally different?

Your 'combat potential' argument is really a smokescreen for wanting to exclude female figures from your party. It doesn't take much digging to find you repeatedly wanting a 'Merlin' 'wise-sage' archetype. Clearly you haven't sat down and spoken with Wynne (or Zevran for that matter according what other people have said, but then again neither have I). Wynne's entire characterisation is that of the 'wise-sage.' It may not be a Gandalf-style wisdom (which borders on all-knowing) but that archetype is, frankly, a dull rehashing of cliches.

You are sexist because, at best, you refuse to speak to Wynne and give her the opportunity to be a source of wisdom and insight. At worst, you have spoken to her and decided 'Nope, not wise/insightful/mysterious/pointlessly-ambiguous enough.' Either way you have decided she is not up-to-snuff, and it is because of her gender.

You have rejected an intelligent woman because in your mind she cannot stand up to your conception of an intelligent mind. In this regard, I think the reality is that it is your intelligence that is compromised, and not that of Wynne.

LOL, Wynne. She's about as wise as a turtle on a bad day.. she's the most annoying party member by far because she is given wanna-be wise lines and then she's trying to choke the PC on them... really, she's about as far from the wise sage as you can get. It's like Wynne read a very bad book and she's taking her stuff out of it..

And it's not because Wynne is female.. it's because writing a character like her just doesn't work.. either you give the wise sage character some game related info that's good or just fairly vague lines... Wynne's style is more like a soon-to-be-retired lower grade teacher is talking to a 7 year old and then expects him/her to be grateful..

So yeah, Wynne is NOT intelligent... but as she is but a puppet of the writers of DAO, I rather say they did not write her to be intelligent (or intelligently, depends on their intentions)

Oh, and guns changed everything. Much respect to the women in every police and military force not too stupid to allow them. there is little or nothing that they can't do in those circumstances.

Only someone with no knowledge about gunfighting would say such a thing. Guns did not change everything. Especially in police work where you can't basically use them ever...

I am of the opinion that women certainly have their places in the military and police forces. In the military there are plenty, plenty of jobs they can excel at.. the same in police. Especially as a police, a woman officer might defuse a situation whereas a man could not have. However, when there is a physical confrontation.. at best, women tend to be on the way and at worst they're endangering their partner. Yes, there are exceptions. I know a female bouncer (albeit he's more of a guy, really) who can more than handle most guys... but ALL of the female officers I've seen (and everyone else I know who has met female officers..).. they'd only be in the guy's way in a fight. And I would never, ever give them a gun. Not because they'd be ineffective with it.. but because of how easy it'd be to disarm her and use the gun against her and her partner. I am NOT saying it is any different for some guys... but on average the ratio you can trust in a physical confrontation is sky high in men compared to women.

And about military forces that are too stupid to allow women in... I think almost every military allows women at least in some positions. It is NOT stupidity, however, when you don't allow them to actually fight. If you do, that's stupidity. The expenses and risks of that far outweigh the gains.. not just because they would have a lower fighting capability/carrying capability etc.. but because of things such as hygiene, men's will to protect women, separate sleeping quarters etc etc. Allowing women to be on the front lines is just "Political correctness". 

Yes, it is ridiculously easy to disarm a woman before she moves her finger a quarter-inch along a trigger. You offend every female cop. I have a "work friend" who is an ex-cop, now an armored-car guard. I really don't think her gender makes her car easier to rob.

Tell your insults to women to the famously effective IDF, which actually conscripts women. 2/3 of those women are eligible for combat duty.

Guns did change everything. Women and small men could hardly even be soldiers or cops once upon a time. Now there are many (especially cops). Now they are only restricted by social factors.

[Beechwell]

As much fun as the discussion about women in the military/the police may be, it is of little relevance to the question if women should be able to be fighters in Thedas. It is already established by the lore that females in DA can fight well. Maybe not as good as the best male fighters, but that is beside the point. Even elves can fight well, and they are all far slighter than humans.



So why do some people not want women (or men they consider unmanly) in fighting roles in a fantasy game? Because it brakes gender stereotypes and roles that are dear to them? Because they prefer a certain manly man type to be the heroes?



If it is just "realism" that you seek, just accept a diminished physical difference between sexes in a fantasy world like you accept the existance of magic. It's there because many people like that particular fantasy, it mirrors the increasing influence women have (and should have) in our world, and the change in the ideal male stereotype. I really don't see what is so bad about this.

[Dark83]

Zenthar Aseth wrote...

Mmm mmm, where/when? Do you mean the Viking Battle Maidens? Or the notorious valkyries?

How about the Scyths, the Spartans, the Celts, the Teutons, the Cimbri, the Gauls, the Norse, the Saxons, and some of the other tribes the Romans conquered?

[Zenthar Aseth]

CJohnJones wrote...

Yes, it is ridiculously easy to disarm a woman before she moves her finger a quarter-inch along a trigger. You offend every female cop. I have a "work friend" who is an ex-cop, now an armored-car guard. I really don't think her gender makes her car easier to rob.

Tell your insults to women to the famously effective IDF, which actually conscripts women. 2/3 of those women are eligible for combat duty.

Guns did change everything. Women and small men could hardly even be soldiers or cops once upon a time. Now there are many (especially cops). Now they are only restricted by social factors.

You show you are very narrow minded. Or are you suggesting that female officers walk around, pointing their gun at everyone... EVERYONE with their finger on the trigger? That'd look weird, not to mention it'd be quite a feat in a big, crowded store. I do not offend every female cop, I am sure there's at least one sensible woman working in the police that I do not offend

I have no insults to tell to anyone. I have not insulted women soldiers/cops, much less women in general.. and look up your facts. Women do not serve in front line combat in the IDF. Some women are in light combat duties and may or may not see combat.. if you paid attention - I said earlier that there are many spots in armies where women can excel. IDF has women in these positions, such as artillery and Air Force. 

Women are still in the fighting positions of the army just because of politics... police is a different thing as they very rarely get any resistance (and if they do, the suspects usually just want to get away, not actively fight..).. but women's capabilities of handling the job has not changed because of equipment. Men will not hit women as easily nowdays, though, so that helps too.