188 réponses à ce sujet

[kansadoom]

Zenthar Aseth wrote...

CJohnJones wrote...

Yes, it is ridiculously easy to disarm a woman before she moves her finger a quarter-inch along a trigger. You offend every female cop. I have a "work friend" who is an ex-cop, now an armored-car guard. I really don't think her gender makes her car easier to rob.

Tell your insults to women to the famously effective IDF, which actually conscripts women. 2/3 of those women are eligible for combat duty.

Guns did change everything. Women and small men could hardly even be soldiers or cops once upon a time. Now there are many (especially cops). Now they are only restricted by social factors.

You show you are very narrow minded. Or are you suggesting that female officers walk around, pointing their gun at everyone... EVERYONE with their finger on the trigger? That'd look weird, not to mention it'd be quite a feat in a big, crowded store. I do not offend every female cop, I am sure there's at least one sensible woman working in the police that I do not offend

I have no insults to tell to anyone. I have not insulted women soldiers/cops, much less women in general.. and look up your facts. Women do not serve in front line combat in the IDF. Some women are in light combat duties and may or may not see combat.. if you paid attention - I said earlier that there are many spots in armies where women can excel. IDF has women in these positions, such as artillery and Air Force. 

Women are still in the fighting positions of the army just because of politics... police is a different thing as they very rarely get any resistance (and if they do, the suspects usually just want to get away, not actively fight..).. but women's capabilities of handling the job has not changed because of equipment. Men will not hit women as easily nowdays, though, so that helps too.

well you are beng a bit sexist

[Zenthar Aseth]

Dark83 wrote...

Zenthar Aseth wrote...

Mmm mmm, where/when? Do you mean the Viking Battle Maidens? Or the notorious valkyries?

How about the Scyths, the Spartans, the Celts, the Teutons, the Cimbri, the Gauls, the Norse, the Saxons, and some of the other tribes the Romans conquered?

Could you provide some sources? The role of Spartan women was to keep the household up and running.. it would also be cool if the source said something about the combat ability of the women in question, again no one is saying women cannot fight 

kansadoom wrote...

well you are beng a bit sexist

Oh noes. Let me tell you: I am not afraid of being called a sexist. I know, I know, terrifying isn't it? But you should also realize that term is only used to shut up criticism of the current values of the society.. I mean, really? Because I am arguing for something I am a big bad sexist? How terrible, how horrible.

http://images.cheezb...41978123024.jpg

Modifié par Zenthar Aseth, 25 novembre 2009 - 07:46 .

[Godzr]

Ordo_Wells wrote...

Before I begin, the disclaimer (the fact I have to post the disclaimer ought to signal that  something's out of whack)
I am not mean or disrespectful and hateful towards women.  Far far far from it.  So, don't go screaming sexism. 

Ok, Dragon Age may mark the point in RPG history when developers go that wee bit too far in putting women into the combat/adventurer role. 

In my party, I currently have an old lady mage, a young lady mage, and a young lady...warrior?  Cmon. 
Then, I have two guys and a dog, and an effiminate, sleezy, pretty boy elf (this elf is about as masculine as that dude who hosts "queer eye for the straight guy"...wait a minute....they look a lot alike too...)

 
As mentioned in another post, Zev’s lack of masculinity can be down to the fact of his bisexual nature.
 

Ordo_Wells wrote...
I thought this RPG was supposed to bring realism and grit to the fantasy genre.   

And it does, obviously discounting the fact that setting, dragons and magic and such. But it does bring a sense of realism to the genre. It is entirely realistic for a woman to be all the above.
 

Ordo_Wells wrote...
Why is my party balanced for the sexes?  it's ridiculous.  Women simply do not have the same kind of physiology as men, and are not made to fight and push inflict physical damage on enemies who are potentially larger and stronger.  Do I really have to explain this, though? 

 
This is true, only in the context that you laid out. Women do not have the same kind of physiology as men, granted, no argument there. But that does not mean they are not capable to fight and inflict physical damage. I can name three women from history who have live and fought in front line battles for everyone male you can mention with historical fact. This is not meant as a boast but to show you the scope of women fighters/warriors/combatants extend beyond Jehanne la Pucelle (Joan of Arc).

Ordo_Wells wrote...
I feel like the fantasy is no longer "AN ancient army of Evil origins rises up to destroy mankind, and an order of knights must organize a resistance and fight them back".

 
This could be because Knights were a masculine order and the women who did wear suits of amour and impersonated knights were a rarity.
 

Ordo_Wells wrote...
Instead, it's "An ancient army of evil origins rises up--but it's not problem; they're such wusses we can send four of our women to take them down."  

 
That’s what the Germanic tribes must have said when the Roman’s were expanding the empire beyond the Danube and Rhine rivers.
 

Ordo_Wells wrote...
I really don't get it.  I mean, do guys really like playing these games as females?  Don't get me wrong, I'm all for that exception to the rule, that one, maybe two, wild card chick who can bring the pain (our aforementioned young lady mage).  BUt this is....preposterous, and a real game-killer for me.  Really, I have to call it bad writing, or a commercially motivated sell-out.

 
Some males do like playing females in RPG’s and vice-versa, this is just personal taste which you’re well aware off. However its not bad writing includes females in theses roles when it is both plausible and historical fact that there are/were and will be female combatants.

Ordo_Wells wrote...
I like Alistair, he's alright.  I like Sten alright too.  but where's the deadly, gravel voiced rogue who hides his face behind a cowl?  Where's the Merlin-esque mage?  Where's Canderous?!  

 
This must be a personal taste, because although I know what your implying here, I don’t imagine my rogues to have gravel voices, the cowl… yes..
The point is it’s an archetypical rogue, and in that same vein Wynn is the archetypical Merlin-esque mage, just a different gender.

Ordo_Wells wrote...
I just have to ask, does anyone else share in this sentiment?  Am I alone?  Or, are there more of you out there who think this game lacks masculine......character.

 
I don’t think the game lacks a masculine character(s) because you have Duncan and Loghain who are both on the very masculine side imho.

[Dark83]

Zenthar Aseth wrote...

Dark83 wrote...

How about the Scyths, the Spartans, the Celts, the Teutons, the Cimbri, the Gauls, the Norse, the Saxons, and some of the other tribes the Romans conquered?

Could you provide some sources? The role of Spartan women was to keep the household up and running.. it would also be cool if the source said something about the combat ability of the women in question, again no one is saying women cannot fight 

The Spartan women fought to defend their homes. See: Chelidonis.
That the Danes and Norse forces had Shieldmaidens isn't really that hard a fact to look up.
That the Celts, Teutons, and Gauls had warrior women shouldn't be a huge surprise.
General Marius reports on the Cimbri women, who acted as archers in wagons, emerging with swords as well.

Also, see the Cambodians.

Modifié par Dark83, 25 novembre 2009 - 07:58 .

[Zenthar Aseth]

Godzr wrote...

I don’t think the game lacks a masculine character(s) because you have Duncan and Loghain who are both on the very masculine side imho.

I agree that Duncan and Loghain are masculine but Duncan only has a very brief role in the game and Loghain.. well, he isn't really a party member.

Oh and Dark.. I was hoping you wouldn't bring Chelidonis up.. I mean, err.. do you honestly believe that she was a warrior princess who was a captain of an all female guard and she FOUGHT WITH A ROPE TIED AROUND HER NECK? Soon you're going to be taking examples out of Hercules

More importantly: That's a separated incidence at best and shows nothing of women's combat capabilities which is what this thread is about. I asked for sources, though, yes. This is not enough at all.

Your other source is not any better. Notice the big "may have" in the title? And the only proof is that they were buried with swords and helmets... which could mean a hundred things.

Shieldmaiden, hmm, let's see: "A shieldmaiden was a woman who had chosen to fight as a warrior in Scandinavian folklore and mythology"

Folklore, mythology... 

I shudder to think what I'd find if I delved any deeper into the other examples you gave..

Modifié par Zenthar Aseth, 25 novembre 2009 - 08:02 .

[kansadoom]

Zenthar Aseth wrote...

Dark83 wrote...

Zenthar Aseth wrote...

Mmm mmm, where/when? Do you mean the Viking Battle Maidens? Or the notorious valkyries?

How about the Scyths, the Spartans, the Celts, the Teutons, the Cimbri, the Gauls, the Norse, the Saxons, and some of the other tribes the Romans conquered?

Could you provide some sources? The role of Spartan women was to keep the household up and running.. it would also be cool if the source said something about the combat ability of the women in question, again no one is saying women cannot fight 

kansadoom wrote...

well you are beng a bit sexist

Oh noes. Let me tell you: I am not afraid of being called a sexist. I know, I know, terrifying isn't it? But you should also realize that term is only used to shut up criticism of the current values of the society.. I mean, really? Because I am arguing for something I am a big bad sexist? How terrible, how horrible.

http://images.cheezb...41978123024.jpg

Well technically I just called you sexist I never said if i thought that was good or bad

[Godzr]

Zenthar Aseth wrote...

Godzr wrote...

I don’t think the game lacks a masculine character(s) because you have Duncan and Loghain who are both on the very masculine side imho.

I agree that Duncan and Loghain are masculine but Duncan only has a very brief role in the game and Loghain.. well, he isn't really a party member.

Ture, but the question was Does the game lack a masculine character. And thats how I answered it. Now the fact you can recruit Loghain and add him to your party makes him a real party member, just by the fact he is in your party? 

[Zenthar Aseth]

Godzr wrote...

Zenthar Aseth wrote...

Godzr wrote...

I don’t think the game lacks a masculine character(s) because you have Duncan and Loghain who are both on the very masculine side imho.

I agree that Duncan and Loghain are masculine but Duncan only has a very brief role in the game and Loghain.. well, he isn't really a party member.

Ture, but the question was Does the game lack a masculine character. And thats how I answered it. Now the fact you can recruit Loghain and add him to your party makes him a real party member, just by the fact he is in your party? 

Yes you can recruit Loghain but only at the very end and only if you choose to go against Alistair.. so he's a very brief party member.

[Ammadessi]

http://americancivilwar.com/women/



History of women in the American Civil War, for starters.



The problem with your argument is that it hinges on the idea that every single man and woman has the exact same body type and abilities. Compare a female shot putter to a female gymnast, then a male bodybuilder to a male speed skater.



Men may be able to build up muscle mass more easily, but women are quite capable of doing it as well. It's just poor stereotyping to say that men are inherently better at combat than women. The person who took down the Fort Hood shooter was a female police officer, remember.

[Zenthar Aseth]

Ammadessi wrote...

http://americancivilwar.com/women/

History of women in the American Civil War, for starters.

The problem with your argument is that it hinges on the idea that every single man and woman has the exact same body type and abilities. Compare a female shot putter to a female gymnast, then a male bodybuilder to a male speed skater.

Men may be able to build up muscle mass more easily, but women are quite capable of doing it as well. It's just poor stereotyping to say that men are inherently better at combat than women. The person who took down the Fort Hood shooter was a female police officer, remember.

Mark Todd took down the Fort Hood shooter. Kind of a weird name for a female police officer isn't it?

"Base civilian police Sergeant Kimberly Munley, who had arrived on the scene within three minutes of receiving the report of an emergency at the center, encountered Hasan exiting the building in pursuit of a wounded soldier. Munley and Hasan exchanged shots; Munley was hit three times: twice through her left leg and once in her right wrist, knocking her to the ground.[16] In the meantime, civilian police officer Sergeant Mark Todd arrived and fired at Hasan. Todd said: "He was firing at people as they were trying to run and hide. Then he turned and fired a couple of rounds at me. I didn't hear him say a word, he just turned and fired."[17] Hasan was hit and felled by shots from Todd,[3][18] who then kicked a pistol out of Hasan's hand, and placed him in handcuffs as he fell unconscious.[19]"

A rather poor example of a female police officer's skills in combat, eh? Get shot three times and only the arrival of a male officer saves your life. This, actually, is the reality and you only helped my case.

I don't see what you're trying to convey with your American Civil war link. "It is true that the military service of women did not affect the outcome of campaigns or battles. Their service did not alter the course of the war."

Granted, there weren't many women, but again.. what are you trying to convey?

Modifié par Zenthar Aseth, 25 novembre 2009 - 08:20 .

[CJohnJones]

kansadoom wrote...

Zenthar Aseth wrote...

CJohnJones wrote...

Yes, it is ridiculously easy to disarm a woman before she moves her finger a quarter-inch along a trigger. You offend every female cop. I have a "work friend" who is an ex-cop, now an armored-car guard. I really don't think her gender makes her car easier to rob.

Tell your insults to women to the famously effective IDF, which actually conscripts women. 2/3 of those women are eligible for combat duty.

Guns did change everything. Women and small men could hardly even be soldiers or cops once upon a time. Now there are many (especially cops). Now they are only restricted by social factors.

You show you are very narrow minded. Or are you suggesting that female officers walk around, pointing their gun at everyone... EVERYONE with their finger on the trigger? That'd look weird, not to mention it'd be quite a feat in a big, crowded store. I do not offend every female cop, I am sure there's at least one sensible woman working in the police that I do not offend

I have no insults to tell to anyone. I have not insulted women soldiers/cops, much less women in general.. and look up your facts. Women do not serve in front line combat in the IDF. Some women are in light combat duties and may or may not see combat.. if you paid attention - I said earlier that there are many spots in armies where women can excel. IDF has women in these positions, such as artillery and Air Force. 

Women are still in the fighting positions of the army just because of politics... police is a different thing as they very rarely get any resistance (and if they do, the suspects usually just want to get away, not actively fight..).. but women's capabilities of handling the job has not changed because of equipment. Men will not hit women as easily nowdays, though, so that helps too.

well you are beng a bit sexist

I did look it up to make sure i had my facts right before i posted. Since the mid-nineties women served in combat in the IDF.



Edit: Also, I should know better than to respond to trolls.

Modifié par CJohnJones, 25 novembre 2009 - 08:24 .

[Ammadessi]

Not the story I heard about Fort Hood, but if Wikipedia says it it MUST be true.



You're hilarious, you know that? You ignored the important part of my post, which is the simple fact that what you're doing is stereotyping, and by creating generalizations you're ignoring the fact that not everyone can be put into neat little boxes the way you'd like.



Just as not all elves are lithe, agile folks who excel at poverty, not all men are great at combat, and not all women are weak, passive little things who would die on the front lines.

[Zenthar Aseth]

CJohnJones wrote...

kansadoom wrote...

Zenthar Aseth wrote...

CJohnJones wrote...

Yes, it is ridiculously easy to disarm a woman before she moves her finger a quarter-inch along a trigger. You offend every female cop. I have a "work friend" who is an ex-cop, now an armored-car guard. I really don't think her gender makes her car easier to rob.

Tell your insults to women to the famously effective IDF, which actually conscripts women. 2/3 of those women are eligible for combat duty.

Guns did change everything. Women and small men could hardly even be soldiers or cops once upon a time. Now there are many (especially cops). Now they are only restricted by social factors.

You show you are very narrow minded. Or are you suggesting that female officers walk around, pointing their gun at everyone... EVERYONE with their finger on the trigger? That'd look weird, not to mention it'd be quite a feat in a big, crowded store. I do not offend every female cop, I am sure there's at least one sensible woman working in the police that I do not offend

I have no insults to tell to anyone. I have not insulted women soldiers/cops, much less women in general.. and look up your facts. Women do not serve in front line combat in the IDF. Some women are in light combat duties and may or may not see combat.. if you paid attention - I said earlier that there are many spots in armies where women can excel. IDF has women in these positions, such as artillery and Air Force. 

Women are still in the fighting positions of the army just because of politics... police is a different thing as they very rarely get any resistance (and if they do, the suspects usually just want to get away, not actively fight..).. but women's capabilities of handling the job has not changed because of equipment. Men will not hit women as easily nowdays, though, so that helps too.

well you are beng a bit sexist

I did look it up to make sure i had my facts right before i posted. Since the mid-nineties women served in combat in the IDF.

Edit: Also, I should know better than to respond to trolls.

If you cannot argue any better than that, perhaps it is better you do not respond. I am clearly a troll because I actually argue without insults, yes? So be it, I will not exactly miss you. 

Here, 

"IsraelSome women served in various positions in in the IDF, including infantry, radio operators and transport pilots in the 1948 war of independence and "Operation Kadesh" in 1956, but later the Air Force closed its ranks to female pilots, and women were restricted from combat positions. There is a draft of both men and women. Most women serve in non-combat positions, and are conscripted for two years (instead of three for men). A landmark high court appeal in 1994 forced the Air Force to accept women air cadets. In 2001, Israel's first female combat pilot received her wings. In 1999 the Caracal company was formed, as a non segregated infantry company. In 2000 it was expanded into a Battalion (called The 33rd, for the 33 women killed in combat during the War of Independence) since then, further combat positions have opened to women, including Artillery and Field Intelligence."

I do think it is quite ridiculous I have to do all the research here... but if you have no basis for your argument or it is based on completely false statements I guess it is hard to find sources?

[Zenthar Aseth]

Ammadessi wrote...

Not the story I heard about Fort Hood, but if Wikipedia says it it MUST be true.

You're hilarious, you know that? You ignored the important part of my post, which is the simple fact that what you're doing is stereotyping, and by creating generalizations you're ignoring the fact that not everyone can be put into neat little boxes the way you'd like.

Just as not all elves are lithe, agile folks who excel at poverty, not all men are great at combat, and not all women are weak, passive little things who would die on the front lines.

I ignored that part of your post because it is useless to argue about that. My answer is "Nope, I am not stereotyping." We won't get far with "YES!" "NO!", will we? Also, I agree: not all men are great at combat and not all women are weak or passive.

So, a story you heard vs Wikipedias sources:

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"Francheska Velez, who had disarmed bombs in Iraq, was pregnant and headed home". Washington Post.^ a b Dao, James (November 5, 2009). "Suspect Was ‘Mortified’ About Deployment". New York Times. Retrieved November 7, 2009.^ "Sources Identify Major as Gunman in Deadly Shooting Rampage at Fort Hood". Fox News. November 5, 2009. Retrieved November 6, 2009.^ "Fort Hood shooting: Texas army killer linked to September 11 terrorists". The Telegraph. November 7, 2009.^ "Alleged Shooter Tied to Mosque of 9 / 11 Hijackers". The New York Times. November 8, 2009.^ "Hasan's Computer Reveals No Terror Ties," KNX 1070, November 9, 2009^ Officials Begin Putting Shooting Pieces Together, NPR, November 6, 2009^ Clear warning signs, Hasan’s colleagues say, Associated Press/MSNBC, November 7, 2009^ Walter Reed Officials Asked: Was Hasan Psychotic?, NPR, November 11, 2009^ a b By PAMELA HESS and EILEEN SULLIVAN (AP) (November 9, 2009). "Radical imam praises alleged Fort Hood shooter". The Associated Press:. Google.com. Retrieved November 10, 2009.^ Ross, Brian, and Schwartz, Rhonda, "Major Hasan's E-Mail: 'I Can't Wait to Join You' in Afterlife; American Official Says Accused Shooter Asked Radical Cleric When Is Jihad Appropriate?," ABC News, November 19, 2009, accessed November 19, 2009^ "FBI reassessing past look at Fort Hood suspect". Seattle Times. November 10, 2009.^ "Hasan's Ties Spark Government Blame Game". CBS News. Nov. 11, 2009.^ Martha Raddatz, Brian ross, Mary-Rose Abraham, Rehab El-Buri, Senior Official: More Hasan Ties to People Under Investigation by FBI, November 10, 2009.^ a b "Who is Maj. Milik Hasan?". KXXV. November 6, 2009. Retrieved November 6, 2009.^ a b Plunkett, Jack. "AP Photo". Associated Press. Retrieved November 10, 2009. "This photograph taken on Friday, Nov. 6, 2009 in Killeen, Texas, shows a copy of the Quran and a briefcase holding this business card that Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan gave to his neighbor a day before going on a shooting spree at the Fort Hood Army Base."^ Esposito, Richard; Mary-Rose Abraham, Rhonda Schwartz (November 12, 2009). "Major Hasan: Soldier of Allah; Many Ties to Jihad Web Sites". ABC News. Retrieved November 13, 2009.^ Brown, Jeffrey (November 5, 2009). "A Search for Answers Following Fort Hood Attack". The NewsHour with Jim Lehrer. Retrieved November 14, 2009.^ Newman, Maria (November 5, 2009). "12 Dead, 31 Wounded in Base Shootings". The New York Times. Retrieved November 5, 2009.^ Barnes, Julian (November 6, 2009). "Fort Hood victims bound for Dover Air Force Base". KFSM, LA Times. Retrieved November 6, 2009.^ Durawa, Kevin; (November 6, 2009). News10. http://www.news10.ne...x?storyid=69941 Alleged Fort Hood Shooter in a Coma. Retrieved November 11, 2009.^ "Military: Fort Hood suspect is alive". USA Today. November 5, 2009. Retrieved November 6, 2009.^ Eggerton, Brooks (November 17, 2009). "Fort Hood captain: Hasan wanted patients to face war crimes charges". Dallas Morning News. Retrieved November 17, 2009.^ "CQ Transcript: Reps. Van Hollen, Pence, Sen. Lieberman Gov.-elect McDonnell on 'Fox News Sunday'". November 8, 2009. Retrieved November 9, 2009.^ Johnson, Bridget (November 9, 2009). "Lieberman wants probe into 'terrorist attack' by major on Fort Hood". The Hill. Retrieved November 9, 2009.^ "Army base shooting was 'terrorist attack': US lawmaker". AFP. Google. November 18, 2009. Retrieved November 18, 2009.^ a b Fort Hood Mass Shooter Major Hasan was not a 'sleeper' says Forensic Psychiatrist Dr. Michael Welner, http://www.newenglis...m/blog_id/23960^ a b "Terrorism or Tragic Shooting? Analysts Divided on Fort Hood Massacre". Fox News. November 7, 2009. Retrieved November 8, 2009. "The authorities have not ruled out terrorism in the shooting, but they said the preliminary evidence suggests that it wasn't."^ Reilly, Ryan (November 9, 2009). "Mukasey Says Fort Hood Attack Was Terrorism". Main Justice. Retrieved November 11, 2009.^ Phares, Walid (November 6, 2009). "Ft. Hood: The Largest 'Terror Act' Since 9/11?". Fox News. p. FoxForum. Retrieved November 8, 2009.^ "Investigating Fort Hood Massacre". Anderson Cooper 360°. November 6, 2009. Retrieved November 7, 2009.^ Michael Isikoff (November 9, 2009). Newsweek. http://blog.newsweek...hasan-hero.aspx.^ Yochi j. dreazen (November 17, 2009). Wall Street Journal. http://online.wsj.co...oWhatsNewsForth.^ a b Levin, Brian (November 8, 2009). "The Ft. Hood Massacre: A Lone-Wolf Jihad of One?". Huffington Post. Retrieved November 10, 2009.^ http://www.myfoxdfw....061257524598580^ "Local Forts Increase Security". myfoxny.com. November 5, 2009. Retrieved November 5, 2009.^ "Fort Hood shootings: Utah families on base". ABC 4 News. November 5, 2009. Retrieved November 5, 2009.^ "Fort Hood shootings". Huffington Post. November 5, 2009. Retrieved November 5, 2009.^ McFadden, Robert D. (November 5, 2009). "Army Doctor Held in Ft. Hood Rampage". The New York Times. Retrieved November 8, 2009.^ "Military calls Fort Hood shooting ‘isolated’ case". MSNBC. November 5, 2009. Retrieved November 5, 2009.^ a b Leinwand, Donna; Melanie Eversley (November 5, 2009). "Army: 12 dead in attacks at Fort Hood, Texas". USA Today. Retrieved November 6, 2009.^ "Biden reacts to Hood attack". politico.com. November 5, 2009. Retrieved November 6, 2009.^ "Sen. Cornyn: Don't jump to conclusions over Fort Hood shootings". Fort Hood, Texas: CNN. November 5, 2009. Retrieved November 5, 2009.^ "Sen. Cornyn Statement On Fort Hood Tragedy". November 6, 2009. Retrieved November 6, 2009.^ "Obama's Frightening Insensitivity Following Shooting". NBC Chicago. November 6, 2009. Retrieved November 10, 2009.^ "Barack Obama 'insensitive' over his handling of Fort Hood shooting". Times Online. November 9, 2009. Retrieved November 10, 2009.^ Charles Hurt, "Commander sets the right tone for once," New York Post, November 11, 2009, found at New York Post website. Retrieved November 11, 2009.^ White House Press release, "Remarks by the President at Memorial Service at Fort Hood, Texas," November 10, 2009, found at White House Official website. Retrieved November 11, 2009.^ "Napolitano Warns Against Anti-Muslim Backlash". AP. Fox News. November 8, 2009. Retrieved November 10, 2009.^ Zakaria, Tabassum (November 8, 2009). "General Casey: diversity shouldn’t be casualty of Fort Hood". Reuters. Retrieved November 10, 2009.^ "Muslim group condemns Hood shootings". Military Times (Washington, D.C.). November 5, 2009. Retrieved November 6, 2009.^ "Fort Hood shooting: Muslim groups fear backlash". Telegraph. November 6, 2009. Retrieved November 6, 2009.^ "LULAC National President Rosa Rosales Issues Statement on Fort Hood Shooting | LULAC-League of United Latin American Citizens". Lulac.org. November 6, 2009. Retrieved November 12, 2009.^ "Statement on Fort Hood Tragedy". Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence. November 6, 2009. Retrieved November 8, 2009.^ Daniel, Lisa (November 5, 2009). "Army Major Declared Sole Suspect in Hood Shooting". American Forces Press Service.^ Abcarian, Robin; Powers, Ashley & Meyer, Josh (November 6, 2009). "Fort Hood shooting: Suspected gunman not among fatalities: Army psychiatrist blamed in Fort Hood shooting rampage". Los Angeles Times. Retrieved November 8, 2009.^ "Twelve dead, 31 wounded in Fort Hood shootings". Stars and Stripes. November 5, 2009. Retrieved November 5, 2009.^ Rawnsley, Adam; Bin Laden’s Spiritual Mentor Condemns Ft. Hood Attacks, Wired.com, November 16, 2009. Retrieved November 16, 2009.^ "Veterans Day message to President Obama | Iraq Veterans Against the War". Ivaw.org. Retrieved November 12, 2009.^ "Investigation Continues Into Fort Hood Shooting". FBI. November 11, 2009. Retrieved November 12, 2009.^ Roupenian, Elisa (November 9, 2009). "Retired Colonel to Defend Accused Fort Hood Shooter". Retrieved Nov. 9, 2009.^ Hearing Set for Fort Hood Suspect, Fox News Channel, November 23, 2009, retrieved November 24, 2009.^ Independent Online. "Fort Hood suspect refuses to talk". Iol.co.za. Retrieved November 12, 2009.^ From The Post. "Capitol Briefing - Lieberman: Committee investigation of Fort Hood to go forward". Voices.washingtonpost.com. Retrieved November 14, 2009.^ "Officials: Hasan acted alone...". November 9, 2009. Retrieved Nov. 9, 2009.^ Thu  1:21 pm ET (November 12, 2009). "Army: Fort Hood suspect charged with murder". Yahoo! News. Retrieved November 12, 2009.^ "Case against Fort Hood suspect faces many hurdles". Houston Chronicle. Retrieved November 10, 2009.^ a b "Who should try Nidal Malik Hasan - military or federal courts?". Los Angeles Times. November 9, 2009. Retrieved November 10, 2009.^ Death penalty rare, executions rarer in military^ "The U.S. Military Death Penalty | Death Penalty Information Center". Deathpenaltyinfo.org. Retrieved November 21, 2009.^ "60% Want Fort Hood Shooting Investigated as Terrorist Act - Rasmussen Reports™". Rasmussenreports.com. Retrieved November 12, 2009.I

[Ammadessi]

Posting the sources was unnecessary. I know how Wikipedia works, and by "heard" I didn't mean I heard it from a friend of a friend. That's the story I saw reported on the news, if they didn't follow up on it sufficiently enough, then that's their fault as much as mine. You're right about the fort hood shooting. Good for you.



Too bad you're so backwards about everything else. I'm done, by the way. It's much more fun to play Dragon Age then argue with a misogynist.

[Zenthar Aseth]

Ammadessi wrote...

Posting the sources was unnecessary. I know how Wikipedia works, and by "heard" I didn't mean I heard it from a friend of a friend. That's the story I saw reported on the news, if they didn't follow up on it sufficiently enough, then that's their fault as much as mine. You're right about the fort hood shooting. Good for you.

Too bad you're so backwards about everything else. I'm done, by the way. It's much more fun to play Dragon Age then argue with a misogynist.

Yes, it was unnecessary. I am just tired of people saying "Haha, Wikipedia! Then it's wrong!". Following the sources on the Wiki article, it's apparent they weren't sure at first how everything went as Todd wanted to keep low key so the media didn't have the full story immediately..

Another argument won, thank you. I find it delightful when the best the opponent can do is insult me
I am not a misogynist, my friend. I love women.

[Leg_lamp]

I'm not buying the OP, because the PC can group the whole time with Sten, Allistair, and Oghren.  All these men fit traditional fantasy archetypes: the code-of-honor soldier, the chivalrous paladin, and the crusty dwarf.  Also, regardless of how well you think they were portrayed, the women still reflect to traditional fantasy archetypes too: Liliana is the Maiden, Morrigan is the Shadow, and Wynne is the Wise Old Man (keke) archetype.  

The only way that Shale defies the norm, is that she was given a female gender.  Zevran, does fill the trickster rogue stereotype, and undeniably male.  I know plenty of men irl, both gay and straight, who act like constant horndogs, and/or who also act effeminate to varying degrees (look at Mick Jagger, or hair metal guys, etc).  I know many gay men who are superior athletes. 

Regardless about the irl combat abilities of men vs. women, there will always still be the few individuals who are the extreme exceptions. A female professional athlete might lose against a male professional athlete, but she would still soundly whup 99% of any other given person. At my gym, there are two women there all the time who do olympic style weight training - they are seriously dedicated, stronger than most humans, and definitely badass.   In the game, I can only remember two female warrior minibosses, Ser Cautherine, and Branka (who is a strong dwarf).   That isn't really a lot.  I don't find their existence implausible, because there will always be those who rise to the top.  Your player is supposed to be exceptional, as well as your party members, and enemies.

So because of all of this, and going back to the OP, it makes me wonder then what he is really trying to say?  It seems to me that he got what he wanted.  Or is he maybe saying that he *didn't* want Morrigan, Wynne, Leliana, and Zevran to be strong party members in the game, because of their inferior gender/sexuality?  Or is he upset that the writers of the game also tried to accommodate other gamers who enjoy seeing untraditional characters excelling?  He wants to see more of the traditional fantasy archetypes, but he also wants more reality injected in?  Who knows.

Anyways, thanks for the entertainment. 
 

[Ammadessi]

Zenthar Aseth wrote...

Another argument won, thank you. I find it delightful when the best the opponent can do is insult me
I am not a misogynist, my friend. I love women.

"Loving" women does not mean you respect them as equals. You obviously don't, therefore, misogeny. I'm hardly trying to insult you, just calling a spade a spade.

Oh, and me getting bored with your poor reasoning and ridiculous stereotyping doesn't equal a win, no matter how you spin it.

Modifié par Ammadessi, 25 novembre 2009 - 08:42 .

[Eskarne]

Zenthar Aseth wrote...

Ammadessi wrote...

Posting the sources was unnecessary. I know how Wikipedia works, and by "heard" I didn't mean I heard it from a friend of a friend. That's the story I saw reported on the news, if they didn't follow up on it sufficiently enough, then that's their fault as much as mine. You're right about the fort hood shooting. Good for you.

Too bad you're so backwards about everything else. I'm done, by the way. It's much more fun to play Dragon Age then argue with a misogynist.

Yes, it was unnecessary. I am just tired of people saying "Haha, Wikipedia! Then it's wrong!". Following the sources on the Wiki article, it's apparent they weren't sure at first how everything went as Todd wanted to keep low key so the media didn't have the full story immediately..

Another argument won, thank you. I find it delightful when the best the opponent can do is insult me
I am not a misogynist, my friend. I love women.

I really hate to burst your bubble there, but I think people stop arguing with you because it's like bashing one's head repeatedly against a brick wall and not because of your dazzling argumentative skills

Modifié par Eskarne, 25 novembre 2009 - 08:43 .

[Zenthar Aseth]

I would have liked if DA:O had one female warrior that could be recruited for the party.. perhaps someone like Aribeth!

Eskarne wrote...

Zenthar Aseth wrote...

Ammadessi wrote...

Posting the sources was unnecessary. I know how Wikipedia works, and by "heard" I didn't mean I heard it from a friend of a friend. That's the story I saw reported on the news, if they didn't follow up on it sufficiently enough, then that's their fault as much as mine. You're right about the fort hood shooting. Good for you. 

Too bad you're so backwards about everything else. I'm done, by the way. It's much more fun to play Dragon Age then argue with a misogynist.

Yes, it was unnecessary. I am just tired of people saying "Haha, Wikipedia! Then it's wrong!". Following the sources on the Wiki article, it's apparent they weren't sure at first how everything went as Todd wanted to keep low key so the media didn't have the full story immediately..

Another argument won, thank you. I find it delightful when the best the opponent can do is insult me
I am not a misogynist, my friend. I love women.

I really hate to burst your bubble there, but I think people stop arguing with you because it's like bashing one's head repeatedly against a brick wall and not because of your dazzling argumentative skills

Fascinating. I am the one providing all the sources and research and testimonies by combat vets. If one feels like proper argumenting is the same as bashing someone's head repeatedly against a brick wall then be my guest but I have done nothing but argue for my case.. and your post makes no sense because I have not been "out argumented" or out-sourced or whatever yet. If someone DID provide rock hard proof that I am wrong then you could say that.

Modifié par Zenthar Aseth, 25 novembre 2009 - 08:46 .

[Zenthar Aseth]

Ammadessi wrote...

Zenthar Aseth wrote...

Another argument won, thank you. I find it delightful when the best the opponent can do is insult me
I am not a misogynist, my friend. I love women.

"Loving" women does not mean you respect them as equals. You obviously don't, therefore, misogeny. I'm hardly trying to insult you, just calling a spade a spade. 

Oh, and me getting bored with your poor reasoning and ridiculous stereotyping doesn't equal a win, no matter how you spin it. 

Misogyny (pronounced /mɪˈsɒdʒɪni/) is hatred (or contempt) of women or girls.

Misogyny means hatred towards them. I do not hate women, I just acknowledge the fact that men are physically stronger. 

Tell me where I have stereotyped or used poor reasoning. Point the sentences out, if you can  

Modifié par Zenthar Aseth, 25 novembre 2009 - 08:47 .

[Dark83]

Zenthar Aseth wrote...

Your other source is not any better. Notice the big "may have" in the title? And the only proof is that they were buried with swords and helmets... which could mean a hundred things.

Shieldmaiden, hmm, let's see: "A shieldmaiden was a woman who had chosen to fight as a warrior in Scandinavian folklore and mythology"

Folklore, mythology...

Well, we still have General Marius' own account regarding the Cimbri.
The problem with ancient events is that sources aren't entirely reliable.
For example, it is generally accepted by some academic circles that Germanic tribes had warrior women. If the Battle of Bravalla is historically accurate or not is also up for debate. Seperate accounts of that (on the Scandinavian and Swedish side) note shieldmaidens. Vikingaliv notes that the Kiev were surprised to find dead women warriors - shieldmaidens - after they defeated the Byzantines in Bulgaria. Much like the Cimbri, the Timur had women archers (used to defend wagon trains). See: here.
Again, the problem with most of these ancient accounts is that you can easily say "they were wrong" or "they made that **** up". For example, Hippocrates wrote of the Sauromatae, classified them as Scythians, and wrote of their female warriors. Excavations of their burial sites appears to support that.
Sun Tzu wrote in the Art of War that he trained a unit of 180 women as a test of his abilities, though that's an outlier.
Sextus Junius Brutus wrote of the women in Lusitania and Bracari women. If you look up Appian, The Foreign Wars (ed. Horace White) you'll see his accounts of them.

"Here he found the women fighting and perishing in company with the men
with such bravery that they uttered no cry even in the midst of
slaughter."

"They were a very warlike people, the women bearing arms with the men, who fought never turning, never showing their backs, or uttering a cry."

Link
David E. Jones wrote "Women Warriors: A History" where we get accounts of the Cimbri.

"The women would shoot arrows from the top of the war wagons and occasionally sortie from their "castles" and fight with swords"

He quotes Plutarch:

"The Teuton women met them with swords and axes, and making a terrible outcry, drove the fugitives as well as the persuers back, the first as traitors, the others as enemies, and mixing among the warriors, with their bare arms pulling away the shields of the Romans and laying hold on their swords, endured the wounds and slashing of their bodies - invincible unto death - with undaunted resolution."

He also writes:

"In ancient times, Teutonic women warriors fought among the men in full armor, and an important part of the dowry of an upper-class Teutonic woman included a full suit of plate and mail armor, shield, lance, and sword. Archaeologists have unearthed Teutonic women's graves in which weapons, armor, and military insignia were present. Many Roman accounts of battles with this nothern European tribe describe finding the corpses of numerous Teutonic women warriors on the battlefields."

Goth women military captives were marched in the triumphal parade in Rome as well.
Historian Edward Gibbon writes

"Among barbarous nations, women have often combated by the side of their husbands."

The Romans said that Boudica's army had more women then men, as well.

Zenthar Aseth wrote...
I shudder to think what I'd find if I delved any deeper into the other examples you gave..

Given that you simply said "I disbelieve" rather than actually "delve deep", I think you'd have found what I just did.

Edit: Especially since you used wikipedia, which is where I cross-referenced in order to use GoogleBooks to get me the actual sources and quotes.

I personally think "equality" is bull****. "Equal but different" is more accurate - men and women physically and mentally are different. A woman firefighter is rare, simply because very few make it past the physical requirements, which aren't adjusted for women.

Still, my main point was that women have fought before (pre-firearms, which changes everything), and that women are crazy ****es. <_<

Modifié par Dark83, 25 novembre 2009 - 09:02 .

[Zenthar Aseth]

Dark83 wrote...

Zenthar Aseth wrote...

Your other source is not any better. Notice the big "may have" in the title? And the only proof is that they were buried with swords and helmets... which could mean a hundred things.

Shieldmaiden, hmm, let's see: "A shieldmaiden was a woman who had chosen to fight as a warrior in Scandinavian folklore and mythology"

Folklore, mythology...

Well, we still have General Marius' own account regarding the Cimbri.
The problem with ancient events is that sources aren't entirely reliable.
For example, it is generally accepted by some academic circles that Germanic tribes had warrior women. If the Battle of Bravalla is historically accurate or not is also up for debate. Seperate accounts of that (on the Scandinavian and Swedish side) note shieldmaidens. Vikingaliv notes that the Kiev were surprised to find dead women warriors - shieldmaidens - after they defeated the Byzantines in Bulgaria. Much like the Cimbri, the Timur had women archers (used to defend wagon trains). See: here.
Again, the problem with most of these ancient accounts is that you can easily say "they were wrong" or "they made that **** up". For example, Hippocrates wrote of the Sauromatae, classified them as Scythians, and wrote of their female warriors. Excavations of their burial sites appears to support that.
Sun Tzu wrote in the Art of War that he trained a unit of 180 women as a test of his abilities, though that's an outlier.
Sextus Junius Brutus wrote of the women in Lusitania and Bracari women. If you look up Appian, The Foreign Wars (ed. Horace White) you'll see his accounts of them.

"Here he found the women fighting and perishing in company with the men
with such bravery that they uttered no cry even in the midst of
slaughter."

"They were a very warlike people, the women bearing arms with the men, who fought never turning, never showing their backs, or uttering a cry."

Link
David E. Jones wrote "Women Warriors: A History" where we get accounts of the Cimbri.

"The women would shoot arrows from the top of the war wagons and occasionally sortie from their "castles" and fight with swords"

He quotes Plutarch:

"The Teuton women met them with swords and axes, and making a terrible outcry, drove the fugitives as well as the persuers back, the first as traitors, the others as enemies, and mixing among the warriors, with their bare arms pulling away the shields of the Romans and laying hold on their swords, endured the wounds and slashing of their bodies - invincible unto death - with undaunted resolution."

He also writes:

"In ancient times, Teutonic women warriors fought among the men in full armor, and an important part of the dowry of an upper-class Teutonic woman included a full suit of plate and mail armor, shield, lance, and sword. Archaeologists have unearthed Teutonic women's graves in which weapons, armor, and military insignia were present. Many Roman accounts of battles with this nothern European tribe describe finding the corpses of numerous Teutonic women warriors on the battlefields."

Goth women military captives were marched in the triumphal parade in Rome as well.
Historian Edward Gibbon writes

"Among barbarous nations, women have often combated by the side of their husbands."

The Romans said that Boudica's army had more women then men, as well.

Zenthar Aseth wrote...
I shudder to think what I'd find if I delved any deeper into the other examples you gave..

Given that you simply said "I disbelieve" rather than actually "delve deep", I think you'd have found what I just did.

Thank you, very interesting. Sadly most of those are in books so I can't read more, but interesting nonetheless. 

[lllevokelll]

Responding to the OP, as a male gamer, I usually pick a female PC simply because if I'm going to have to stare at a character for 80+ hours, it might as well be an attractive female.

* * *

Meanwhile, at the poster bemoaning you can buy love with gifts being sexist: While DAO is less than ideal in that regard, there's always been an element of truth to that, although generally, the more insightful historical accuracy rule is that, to win her love, if a woman is poor, a man should declare his wealth, whereas if she's rich, he should declare his love. So many people in real-life crisscross that up cluelessly, much less finer courting psychological subtlties...

If the game had more accurately nuanced in it's elements of gift/love declaring dialogues / reactions, it would have been more realistic scripting and possibly even insightful. But so it goes. Gifts as cure-all magnets are just convenient feature/coding imho, not a philosophical statement, in DAO.

* * *

While I'd have liked a stronger female combat protagonist, in sticking to some Song of Ice and Fire inspired pragmatic realism, I'm fine with the non-magic basher being less likely.  That  said, with magic-backed arcane warriors and so forth in the game space, the absence of a female fighter is critiquable as a lazy oversight. The game world makes the possibliity realistic, then the writers fail to capitalize on that fact...

Some of the comments on real-world military overlook the fact that we can evaluate the game's character choices and alleged oversights or biases on the possibility of the created world's ruleset.

* * *

Zenthat: Aribeth was fun, though bear in mind in her original context, script writers / developers left her in prison to hang, with an awkward lack of closure. Which did spawn one of the most popular NWN mods, fixing that sorry campaign clumbsyness... I thought BG was better than NWN in that regard, as it let you play a female PC fighter, who could become the avatar of the God of Murder, and acquire a semi-rediculous set of haste/speed items for gratuitously excessive combat DPS.

Regards,
-evoke

Modifié par lllevokelll, 25 novembre 2009 - 09:02 .

[Zenthar Aseth]

I was talking about chapter 1 Aribeth, never finished NWN1. In CH1 she seemed like a strong-willed, disciplined warrior and someone you could go to a fight with and also spend time after it..