376 réponses à ce sujet

[Zu Long]

DiegoRaphael wrote...

Well the topic has long gone from "i want the demo sooner". I don't mind getting it a few days later (but i would be ****** if the same happen to game release).
The main discussion here - on the PC side - is the lack of customization possibilities on the graphics, and the biggest one being how much worse the game controls got on ME2 compared to ME1 and the knowledge that they will maintain it for ME3.

And that is bull****. Is not an "effort" is simply doing theirs job. Is not like they needed to hire a person to do this over months.

Just pick up the one used on ME1 and adapt it.

I mean c'mon, they already did the buttons mapping for walking, shooting and etc, just need to finish the 1/3 left. 

Make the Enter work, make 2clicks work, make the Scroll Wheel work when i want to read something, J be assigned to open the Jornal, O for Options, a button for Squad and another for the Codex. On vehicles, make the boost be on Shift instead of Space, the jump be on Space instead of E (these two can be change manualy, but still, they are mapped wrongly)

So... 7 key assignments and 2 changes. I guess this take a lot of time and money uh? 

Possibly more time and effort than it's worth, since it's entirely inconsequencial to gameplay and barely even saves the player time navigating over using the mouse and esc buttons. And I manually changed the vehicle keys. It took maybe a minute. These issues aren't that big a deal.

[Revan312]

Zu Long wrote...


Possibly more time and effort than it's worth, since it's entirely inconsequencial to gameplay and barely even saves the player time navigating over using the mouse and esc buttons. And I manually changed the vehicle keys. It took maybe a minute. These issues aren't that big a deal.

No weapon hotkeys is more than a small inconveniance, it breaks the flow constantly when I have to pause or use a horribly unintuitive mouse wheel system to scroll through them..

Also having three seperate uses being applied to one key (running, cover and use/talk) when I literally have over a hundred keys available is not inconsequential, it's lazy optimization.. 

[DiegoRaphael]

@Zu Lang.
If a have a device especifically designed to scroll down scroll bars, why not use it? It's like having a shovel but go "nope, i wanna dig using my hands!

Its a minor thing? Yes it is, but at the same time that it is a minor issue for us players, is an even minor for then to do it. And i think they should do all the "effort".

70% of the things discussed on this topic could have being avoided with some simple shortcuts.

[tangalin]

DiegoRaphael wrote...

@Zu Lang.
If a have a device especifically designed to scroll down scroll bars, why not use it? It's like having a shovel but go "nope, i wanna dig using my hands!

Its a minor thing? Yes it is, but at the same time that it is a minor issue for us players, is an even minor for then to do it. And i think they should do all the "effort".

70% of the things discussed on this topic could have being avoided with some simple shortcuts.

Stuff like this is why I wish basic software development was a required course in high school....

[G0ldmember]

For the PC, I would love what they did with the crysis games. Rightclick, push towards a side on the direction wheel, release. Its simple and fast.

[Zu Long]

Revan312 wrote...

Zu Long wrote...


Possibly more time and effort than it's worth, since it's entirely inconsequencial to gameplay and barely even saves the player time navigating over using the mouse and esc buttons. And I manually changed the vehicle keys. It took maybe a minute. These issues aren't that big a deal.

No weapon hotkeys is more than a small inconveniance, it breaks the flow constantly when I have to pause or use a horribly unintuitive mouse wheel system to scroll through them..

Also having three seperate uses being applied to one key (running, cover and use/talk) when I literally have over a hundred keys available is not inconsequential, it's lazy optimization.. 

Well, going back to what I said earlier in the topic, I really like having the overloaded button since it simplifies the gameplay. I'm constantly using shift to assign targets to my squadmates and plan attacks, so I've never found that very onerous to use as far as weapons go. Quickshifting with the mousewheel can take practice but after 150+ hours invested across mutiple playthroughs, I've gotten pretty good at it. It has its quirks, but it works fine. As I pointed out earlier, asking for extra functionality is fine, but you are hardly getting gipped when everyone has the same control scheme.

[TexasToast712]

Because 75% of PC players are annoying elitists and PS3 players are like the red headed step child that gets beaten. PS3 sucks.

[Revan312]

tangalin wrote...

Stuff like this is why I wish basic software development was a required course in high school....

This isn't basic software development, it's using the UDK kit.  It means 90% of the engine work is done for you.  UDK is extremely intuitive and simple from a programming standpoint, especially for things like hotkeys and binding.

Adding 14 layers of particle effects triggering at the same moment while a model animation plays along with new lighting sources, sound effects and physics is complicated.. Binding use to a seperate key from running isn't.. sorry, your blowing smoke up peoples wazoos..

[devSin]

Zu Long wrote...

But claiming you're being ignored or that the lack of that funtionality somehow means your game is gimped compared to the XBox is just silly. which was my original point.

Stop painting everybody with the same brush. You're arguing with people who have claimed no such thing. If your point is that BioWare isn't ignoring people, then just say BioWare isn't ignoring people. But if you're going to talk about usability and interface design, you need to bring something more to the table than specious arguments like "oh, but it's not that much work to do it the way I personally don't have a problem with".

There is a right thing to do. BioWare knows it, because they've made PC games for over a decade. And even if they didn't know it, Owen would have told them (if he's even still there).

I'll enjoy ME3 either way. Just like I enjoyed ME2, which I enjoyed more than ME, even though it actually supported standard input behaviors.

But BioWare is wrong if they don't do so, and I have no problem with saying so. They are consciously choosing to not support something that is a universal standard, even though they readily can.

[Zu Long]

tangalin wrote...

DiegoRaphael wrote...

@Zu Lang.
If a have a device especifically designed to scroll down scroll bars, why not use it? It's like having a shovel but go "nope, i wanna dig using my hands!

Its a minor thing? Yes it is, but at the same time that it is a minor issue for us players, is an even minor for then to do it. And i think they should do all the "effort".

70% of the things discussed on this topic could have being avoided with some simple shortcuts.

Stuff like this is why I wish basic software development was a required course in high school....

I took Visual C++, does that count? :-P

@DiegoRaphael
I think if it were as minor as you seem to believe, they would have done it. I don't work in gaming, but I do work within a large bureaucratic system. A lot of the things people want me to do they think are very simple and intuitive, when really that couldn't be further from the truth. Sometimes small things, things as small as the way standardized letters are phrased would take earth-shattering amounts of effort to get changed.


Generally, if theres a very easy way of doing something you do it. If it really didn't require but the smallest effort from Bioware to make these changes, do you really think they'd have left it that way for ME3? The programmers are flesh and blood people like you and me. Do you really believe that they sat around and said:

"Well, we COULD take an hour to make these changes to the control scheme that a lot of people asked for. But they're just PC players, so screw 'em."

Modifié par Zu Long, 12 février 2012 - 03:15 .

[tangalin]

Revan312 wrote...

tangalin wrote...

Stuff like this is why I wish basic software development was a required course in high school....

This isn't basic software development, it's using the UDK kit.  It means 90% of the engine work is done for you.  UDK is extremely intuitive and simple from a programming standpoint, especially for things like hotkeys and binding.

Adding 14 layers of particle effects triggering at the same moment while a model animation plays along with new lighting sources, sound effects and physics is complicated.. Binding use to a seperate key from running isn't.. sorry, your blowing smoke up peoples wazoos..

They do not use the UDK , they use the full Unreal Engine source. The UDK is designed for non-programmers to use, allowing you to easily write script to run things that are already programmed for you. Bioware is using the source code from the Unreal engine, heavily modified to suit their purposes. It is not even close to the same thing.

[viggorrah]

TexasToast712 wrote...

Because 75% of PC players are annoying elitists and PS3 players are like the red headed step child that gets beaten. PS3 sucks.

Agree with this. Disagree with this.

[tangalin]

@Zu Long
Visual C++ is much better than nothing, or even the terrible Visual Basic. I hated VB when I hit my second year because everything you learn about it you have to unlearn for basically every other language.

[Zu Long]

devSin wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

But claiming you're being ignored or that the lack of that funtionality somehow means your game is gimped compared to the XBox is just silly. which was my original point.

Stop painting everybody with the same brush. You're arguing with people who have claimed no such thing. If your point is that BioWare isn't ignoring people, then just say BioWare isn't ignoring people. But if you're going to talk about usability and interface design, you need to bring something more to the table than specious arguments like "oh, but it's not that much work to do it the way I personally don't have a problem with".

There is a right thing to do. BioWare knows it, because they've made PC games for over a decade. And even if they didn't know it, Owen would have told them (if he's even still there).

I'll enjoy ME3 either way. Just like I enjoyed ME2, which I enjoyed more than ME, even though it actually supported standard input behaviors.

But BioWare is wrong if they don't do so, and I have no problem with saying so. They are consciously choosing to not support something that is a universal standard, even though they readily can.

Uh, the people I was arguing with DID say that. YOU responded to my post and I replied, while keeping my argument consistent. I've said from my first post (page 7 I think) that wanting keyboard funtionality is fine. But saying, as you just did, that they are "wrong" for not supporting a whole bunch of extra keyboard processes is over the top. It makes no difference to the gameplay, and I don't feel like its worth the amount of grief people make over it.

[Zu Long]

tangalin wrote...

@Zu Long
Visual C++ is much better than nothing, or even the terrible Visual Basic. I hated VB when I hit my second year because everything you learn about it you have to unlearn for basically every other language.

Yeah, I struggled my way to a B, and decided programming wasn't a good fit for me.

Modifié par Zu Long, 12 février 2012 - 03:14 .

[Euraud]

Zu Long wrote...

So far from where? Not getting the game on the PC at all? Because I remember that. Having to wait six months to a year later to get the same game? i remember that too.

I also remember having to wait for ME to come to the PC, and at that time I had a functional Xbox 360, but I had already found that I despised it for gaming (I missed my mouse, keyboard, and now my N52 game pad.), and when I found out that ME was being ported to PC I chose to wait.  Interesting enough I don’t have issues with hitting the esc key either.

I find in hilarious when I read people saying that BioWare does not understand PC gaming.  They have been producing “computer” games since 1996.  I played Baldur's Gate in 98 when it was released.  What I find incredible is that many here cant seem to understand that  Microsoft’s Xbox 360 division and BioWare have been collaborating on games since before 2003, with the release of Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic (KotOR), and that the ME franchise is also a Microsoft/BioWare collaboration.  ME was originally intended for the Xbox 360 only.  Porting it over to the PC later probably did not really hurt Microsoft's proffit (Most of the profit from console games are at release.), so they probably had no issues with BioWare doing so.  Now all I can go by is the Bioware sight that I linked, but according to that there is not a MacOS port either. I would not be surprised that there is some clause in the BioWare/Microsoft ME contract that says that BioWar can not port ME over to another console system, nor another OS, and that is why it’s still not available to the PS3, or the MacOS. 

BioWare did not provide the ME franchise to the PC and PS3 out of the goodness of their heart.  They did it because they felt they could make money by doing so.  The less changes BioWare has to make to the PC and PS3 ports, the more proffit BioWare makes from them. You could call it lazy programming or you could call it smart business.  If you don’t like the product then don’t fricken buy it.  If enough people were to do this that would tell BioWare/EA that they need to improve the product.  Of course this could also tell them that it’s not worth the trouble to port it to the PC and PS3 (Despite what many seem to think here, we do not have a right to the ME franchise.).  If you don’t like the price of the product at release, then don’t buy it when it releases. If enough people were to do this that would tell BioWare/EA that their prices are to high and they would have to drop them. WE are the reason the prices are what they are, because we are the ones willing to pay the price at release.

BioWare/EA  are for profit businesses based in a capitalist society.  They are not some government ran business, there to appease the masses. It is their right and responsibility to make as much profit as they can.  The only real right that we have as consumers is to not purchase the product.

Modifié par Euraud, 12 février 2012 - 03:17 .

[tangalin]

Zu Long wrote...

tangalin wrote...

@Zu Long
Visual C++ is much better than nothing, or even the terrible Visual Basic. I hated VB when I hit my second year because everything you learn about it you have to unlearn for basically every other language.

Yeah, I struggled my way to a B, and decided programming wasn't a good fit for me.

I found the trick was finding a niche that interested you, in my case game programming. On of my classmates was pretty much addicted to database programming, never liked it myself, but he got himself a job working on helicopter simulators for the Canadian forces. So I guess it worked for him lol, damn government pays through the butt for everything... lucky bugger.

[Unpleasant Implications]

viggorrah wrote...

TexasToast712 wrote...

Because 75% of PC players are annoying elitists and PS3 players are like the red headed step child that gets beaten. PS3 sucks.

Agree with this. Disagree with this.

Seconded.

[I-am-Biwinning]

TexasToast712 wrote...

Because 75% of PC players are annoying elitists and PS3 players are like the red headed step child that gets beaten. PS3 sucks.

83% of all statistics are made up on the spot, and PS3 users weren't beaten like a red headed step child with uncharted 1, 2, and 3, MGS4, killzone 2, Resistance, 1, 2, and 3, and a bunch of other exclusives. Console wars are useless and never go anywhere so lets not indulge too far in them. People play on different systems for their own reasons.

Now on to the topic, I hate the whole "well  ps3 users should be lucky ur gettin anything trolol" argument, it really irritates me. A flaw is a flaw, no matter the cause. Whatever excuse you might make, the flaw remain. Released a polished game and expect few complaints. I was equally displeased with the way betheseda released skyrim with such gamebreaking glitches in the ps3 version, while the xbox 360 ran fine. Why should I treat ME3 marketing differently just because the first game was supposed to be exclusive? If you're going to release a game on multiple consoles, do it right on all of them. I don't care what it was supposed to be, it's multiplatform now, so it deserves to be treated like any other mutiplatform game.

Modifié par I-am-Biwinning, 12 février 2012 - 03:28 .

[devSin]

Zu Long wrote...

Uh, the people I was arguing with DID say that. YOU responded to my post and I replied, while keeping my argument consistent. I've said from my first post (page 7 I think) that wanting keyboard funtionality is fine. But saying, as you just did, that they are "wrong" for not supporting a whole bunch of extra keyboard processes is over the top. It makes no difference to the gameplay, and I don't feel like its worth the amount of grief people make over it.

No, you're placing some judgment on "wrong" that isn't actually there.

You have an element that scrolls. There are (at least) two concurrent standard ways to do so (depending on context). Supporting one but not the other without apparent technical motivation is wrong. They have not made a decision to not support something because they think they've come up with something better. They have not made a decision to not support something because they think it's invalid.

You can argue that their decision was necessary. You can argue that it was sufficient. You can argue that it doesn't make any difference to you (this seems to be your principle argument).

But you cannot argue that it is right.

Modifié par devSin, 12 février 2012 - 03:38 .

[_symphony]

the 100% of the statistics in this forum are damn lies.

[Theunsunghero26]

Sony pays EA for exclusives all the time.Obviously Microsoft has a large investment in the Mass Effect series from being the publisher and funding the first. MS releasing the demo early is basically free advertising for EA.

[Zu Long]

devSin wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

Uh, the people I was arguing with DID say that. YOU responded to my post and I replied, while keeping my argument consistent. I've said from my first post (page 7 I think) that wanting keyboard funtionality is fine. But saying, as you just did, that they are "wrong" for not supporting a whole bunch of extra keyboard processes is over the top. It makes no difference to the gameplay, and I don't feel like its worth the amount of grief people make over it.

No, you're placing some judgment on "wrong" that isn't actually there.

You have an element that scrolls. There are (at least) two concurrent standard ways to do so (depending on context). Supporting one but not the other without apparent technical motivation is wrong.

You can argue that it is necessary. You can argue that it is sufficient. You can argue that it doesn't make any difference to you.

But you cannot argue that it is right.

O...Okay? I guess?

Modifié par Zu Long, 12 février 2012 - 03:42 .

[tangalin]

devSin wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

Uh, the people I was arguing with DID say that. YOU responded to my post and I replied, while keeping my argument consistent. I've said from my first post (page 7 I think) that wanting keyboard funtionality is fine. But saying, as you just did, that they are "wrong" for not supporting a whole bunch of extra keyboard processes is over the top. It makes no difference to the gameplay, and I don't feel like its worth the amount of grief people make over it.

No, you're placing some judgment on "wrong" that isn't actually there.

You have an element that scrolls. There are (at least) two concurrent standard ways to do so (depending on context). Supporting one but not the other without apparent technical motivation is wrong. They have not made a decision to not support something because they think they've come up with something better. They have not made a decision to not support something because they think it's invalid.

You can argue that their decision was necessary. You can argue that it was sufficient. You can argue that it doesn't make any difference to you (this seems to be your principle argument).

But you cannot argue that it is right.

There is no moral issue there. It was a design decision. It was neither right nor wrong. Some are dissapointed (Yourself for example), others are not (Zu and I). Both reactions are perfectly fine and valid.