339 réponses à ce sujet

[devSin]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

There would still be drag, explaining why both the Reapers' weapons and the dreadnought's would be slightly weakened.

My point there was that firing a slug out of a barrel with the barrel actually in an atmosphere probably has additional impact beyond simply the slug traveling through air.

So the energy could already be substantially less than when fired in a vacuum (but I'm not a physics guru).

Adding that the ship of that size has to be facing its target to actually hit it with a cannon, there's not really anything I think it could do from within an atmosphere (unless the Reapers stop completely, but I haven't seen the demo and don't watch the videos). Maybe it just got trapped when the invasion started, rather than trying to come to the rescue or something.

Candidate 88766 wrote...

A gun along a Reapers' spine would be stronger than anything in its tentacles as an acclerator cannon increases in strength the longer it is. While some of the codex stuff is speculation, its safe to assume that the tentacle beam things (firing a stream of metal IIRC) are not as powerful as its main gun.

That's complete fabrication, though. You might assume it, but there's nothing at all to support such an assumption. The tentacles are all mobile, so Sovereign wasn't even as long as the codex speculated (the cannon would be static, so it couldn't descend past his little beak).

Also, I didn't pay enough attention to the cannon codex in ME2, but I don't believe the energy from the beam weapon is proportional to its size, so there's no way to know how powerful it is.

Modifié par devSin, 11 février 2012 - 11:35 .

[ramdog7]

Fredvdp wrote...

Also, heatsinks are called ammo now.

Ammunition is a generic term derived from the French language la munition which embraced all material used for war

[Candidate 88766]

littlezack wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

Candidate, thanks for having the patience to put this idiocy to rest.

Took all of about 6 minutes. This entire thread could've been spared if the OP had just had a quick glance at the wiki. It takes all of a few seconds to search for it, so there's no excuse.

It's almost like he...DIDN'T CARE ABOUT THE LORE @_@

Modifié par Candidate 88766, 11 février 2012 - 11:38 .

[Icinix]

I was more concerned about the fighters that are able to fly THROUGH the Reapers OMG!!!

The little blighters zipped in and out, through the Reapers - I think they were extra dimensional fighters or something!

But I did raise an eyebrow when she said dreadnaught , but it's only a brief moment in the tutorial stage of the game, if you stand far enough away - the Reaper and the Dreadnaught battle it off for eternity.

[Arkitekt]

BY THE WAY, if anyone of you has another one of these "OH BIOWARE HOW COULD YOU" factoids to share, you won't get a facepalm out of me if you share them politely and without preemptively insulting the developers for their "lazy job" by placing the caveat that you *might be wrong* on the issue. Formulating the irritation as a polite question will do wonders for you.

Else, you are just a ****ing moron and will be regarded as such.

[legion999]

I don't think it was a dreadnought.

[Candidate 88766]

devSin wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

There would still be drag, explaining why both the Reapers' weapons and the dreadnought's would be slightly weakened.

My point there was that firing a slug out of a barrel with the barrel actually in an atmosphere probably has additional impact beyond simply the slug traveling through air.

So the energy could already be substantially less than when fired in a vacuum (but I'm not a physics guru).

Adding that the ship of that size has to be facing its target to actually hit it with a cannon, there's not really anything I think it could do from within an atmosphere (unless the Reapers stop completely, but I haven't seen the demo and don't watch the videos). Maybe it just got trapped when the invasion started, rather than trying to come to the rescue or something.

Firing a slug into an atmosphere would be pretty much the same as firing from inside an atmosphere. There would be some energy loss (20% or so according to the wiki) but they're travelling so fast that they're still going to pack a colossal punch.

Also, given that Mass Effect technology exists in this universe, a ship's size has no real bearing on its ability to move. Obviously a dreadnought can't do acrobatics, but ME fields can make a dreadnought or Reaper much lighter (hence why Reapers can land) and so they can stil move about enough I'd imagine.

Candidate 88766 wrote...

A gun along a Reapers' spine would be stronger than anything in its tentacles as an acclerator cannon increases in strength the longer it is. While some of the codex stuff is speculation, its safe to assume that the tentacle beam things (firing a stream of metal IIRC) are not as powerful as its main gun.

That's complete fabrication, though. You might assume it, but there's nothing at all to support such an assumption. The tentacles are all mobile, so Sovereign wasn't even as long as the codex speculated (the cannon would be static, so it couldn't descend past his little beak.

Also, I didn't pay enough attention to the cannon codex in ME2, but I don't believe the energy from the beam weapon is proportional to its size, so there's no way to know how powerful it is.

My point is that, given that the wiki makes a distinction between two Reaper weapons, and given that the only one confirmed to one-hit kill a dreadnought has yet to be seen in-game, the OP's initial statement about it being a lore error is wrong. The Thanix cannons might be able to destroy a dreadnought in one hit, but seeing as the codex doesn't state this it isn't a lore error. Besides, the Reapers' main gun can only one-hit the shields of a dreadnought according to the codex, not necessarily outright destroy the dreadnought in one hit.

Mass Effect accelerators simply accelerate slugs. The longer the cannon, the longer the time of acceleration, therefore the higher the velocity when it exists the cannon and therefore the higher the impact energy.

[Inutaisho7996]

Baryonic_Member wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

I thought it was that dreadnaughts cannot LAND on worlds. There's no reason why a large ship couldn't enter the atmosphere - the Reapers do.

Yeah, a Dreadnought is able to hover a few centimetres above the ground, but their ME cores prevent them from going that extra [centimetre].

Why would it even hover in atmosphere in the first place? Doesn't the Codex state something along the lines that a Dreadnought can't even fire in atmosphere, or am I just throwing pieces of my arse? Probably the arse. But surerly it would be more effective in space where it actually could manevourer.

A dreadnaught wouldn't be able to hover a few centimeters above the ground. Dreadnaughts can't land on planets because they're so massive that their engines can't overcome the gravity of the planet and take off. Gravity is so weak that the difference in the weight of the ship on the ground and slightly above the ground would be negligible.

[TCGodzilla]

Guys that was an Alliance cruiser attacking the Reaper dreadnought.

Modifié par TCGodzilla, 11 février 2012 - 11:46 .

[Baryonic_Member]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Baryonic_Member wrote...

And BTW, why doesn't the Reapers invade the Citadel?

The people inside could just close the arms and they'd be safe. The Reapers can't risk destroying or even damaging the Citadel because it is integral to their plans, as it controls the Relays, is central to the Cycle, and has other more important roles that will be revealed in ME3.

**** YOU.

Sincerely.

Thanks for the spoilers.

**** you.

And the Reapers comissioned the Citadel, surerly they could find a way to open it. The only reason Sovereign didn't attack head on was because of the Citadel fleet, not because they would close the arms. Reapers are amazingly fast, able to make turns that would tear any alliance ship in half. With the Relay they can control the relay network and isolate. They're going to have to attack the Citadel sooner or later, why not sooner?

Modifié par Baryonic_Member, 12 février 2012 - 12:05 .

[Baryonic_Member]

Inutaisho7996 wrote...

Baryonic_Member wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

I thought it was that dreadnaughts cannot LAND on worlds. There's no reason why a large ship couldn't enter the atmosphere - the Reapers do.

Yeah, a Dreadnought is able to hover a few centimetres above the ground, but their ME cores prevent them from going that extra [centimetre].

Why would it even hover in atmosphere in the first place? Doesn't the Codex state something along the lines that a Dreadnought can't even fire in atmosphere, or am I just throwing pieces of my arse? Probably the arse. But surerly it would be more effective in space where it actually could manevourer.

A dreadnaught wouldn't be able to hover a few centimeters above the ground. Dreadnaughts can't land on planets because they're so massive that their engines can't overcome the gravity of the planet and take off. Gravity is so weak that the difference in the weight of the ship on the ground and slightly above the ground would be negligible.

Yes, I was being sarcastic, demonstrating how dumb it would be to have ships that could enter atmosphere but not land.

A gun along a Reapers' spine would be stronger than anything in its
tentacles as an acclerator cannon increases in strength the longer it
is. While some of the codex stuff is speculation, its safe to assume
that the tentacle beam things (firing a stream of metal IIRC) are not as
powerful as its main gun.

If you watch carefully, you'll see the stream isn't emitted from a tentacle. And before you entered the thread I already acknowledged (even suggesting) that it could be a smaller Reaper  than Sovereign. If you only would read through the read and not be lazy. It would only have taken a few minutes.

Modifié par Baryonic_Member, 12 février 2012 - 12:09 .

[K_Tabris]

Baryonic_Member wrote...

While running about the catwalks in Vancouver, Kaidan/Ashley call in on the radio that they're "trying to take down the Dreadnought". We then see a Reaper destroying a ship that's hovering in mid air with a few shots. Now there's a number of problems with this.

>The Codex clearly states that Dreadnoughts are kilometre long vessels which cannot enter atmosphere even on low gravity worlds. Even Carriers cannot enter atmosphere on a planet with 1 G.

>The Codex states that the main gun of Sovereign would be able to destroy any Alliance ship with a single shot.

Anyone else bothered how unserious BioWare seem to be about consistency? 

Maybe I'm not reading this correctly, but Sovereign has been referred to as a dreadnaught before, so that's what I will assume you are referring to.  Unlike other dreadnaughts, the Reapers clearly can enter the atmosphere, as they have done for all the previous cycles, so there is no problem there.

Obviously, the Alliance and militaries of each species continually upgrade and develop more powerful, effective weapons.  Since it's been at least three years since the beginning of ME1, it's very reasonable to assume the Alliance ships would possess more powerful guns and defense systems on their ships.

Another clue into this are the developments made available to the SR-2 in ME2.

[Baryonic_Member]

NovinhaShepard wrote...

Baryonic_Member wrote...

While running about the catwalks in Vancouver, Kaidan/Ashley call in on the radio that they're "trying to take down the Dreadnought". We then see a Reaper destroying a ship that's hovering in mid air with a few shots. Now there's a number of problems with this.

>The Codex clearly states that Dreadnoughts are kilometre long vessels which cannot enter atmosphere even on low gravity worlds. Even Carriers cannot enter atmosphere on a planet with 1 G.

>The Codex states that the main gun of Sovereign would be able to destroy any Alliance ship with a single shot.

Anyone else bothered how unserious BioWare seem to be about consistency? 

Maybe I'm not reading this correctly, but Sovereign has been referred to as a dreadnaught before, so that's what I will assume you are referring to.  Unlike other dreadnaughts, the Reapers clearly can enter the atmosphere, as they have done for all the previous cycles, so there is no problem there.

Obviously, the Alliance and militaries of each species continually upgrade and develop more powerful, effective weapons.  Since it's been at least three years since the beginning of ME1, it's very reasonable to assume the Alliance ships would possess more powerful guns and defense systems on their ships.

Another clue into this are the developments made available to the SR-2 in ME2.

If Alliance ships have become so powerful in the last few years, how come they got completely decimated by the Reaper armada? 

[Costin_Razvan]

TCGodzilla wrote...

Guys that was an Alliance cruiser attacking the Reaper dreadnought.

I thought only Frigates could enter the Atmosphere of a planet? Hell even the Normandy SR-2 can't land on High Gravity worlds.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 12 février 2012 - 12:11 .

[littlezack]

Baryonic_Member wrote...

NovinhaShepard wrote...

Baryonic_Member wrote...

While running about the catwalks in Vancouver, Kaidan/Ashley call in on the radio that they're "trying to take down the Dreadnought". We then see a Reaper destroying a ship that's hovering in mid air with a few shots. Now there's a number of problems with this.

>The Codex clearly states that Dreadnoughts are kilometre long vessels which cannot enter atmosphere even on low gravity worlds. Even Carriers cannot enter atmosphere on a planet with 1 G.

>The Codex states that the main gun of Sovereign would be able to destroy any Alliance ship with a single shot.

Anyone else bothered how unserious BioWare seem to be about consistency? 

Maybe I'm not reading this correctly, but Sovereign has been referred to as a dreadnaught before, so that's what I will assume you are referring to.  Unlike other dreadnaughts, the Reapers clearly can enter the atmosphere, as they have done for all the previous cycles, so there is no problem there.

Obviously, the Alliance and militaries of each species continually upgrade and develop more powerful, effective weapons.  Since it's been at least three years since the beginning of ME1, it's very reasonable to assume the Alliance ships would possess more powerful guns and defense systems on their ships.

Another clue into this are the developments made available to the SR-2 in ME2.

If Alliance ships have become so powerful in the last few years, how come they got completely decimated by the Reaper armada? 

Because they're Reapers. And it didn't help that the Alliance didn't expect the attack at all, either.

[Candidate 88766]

Baryonic_Member wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Baryonic_Member wrote...

And BTW, why doesn't the Reapers invade the Citadel?

The people inside could just close the arms and they'd be safe. The Reapers can't risk destroying or even damaging the Citadel because it is integral to their plans, as it controls the Relays, is central to the Cycle, and has other more important roles that will be revealed in ME3.

**** YOU.

Sincerely.

Thanks for the spoilers.

**** you.

And the Reapers comissioned the Citadel, surerly they could find a way to open it. The only reason Sovereign didn't attack head on was because of the Citadel fleet, not because they would close the arms. Reapers are amazingly fast, able to make turns that would tear any alliance ship in half. With the Relay they can control the relay network and isolate. They're going to have to attack the Citadel sooner or later, why not sooner?

If you consider that a spoiler then you really shouldn't be on these forums any more. That was the vaguest I could possibly have been. It didn't tell you what the role is, whether its something important to the story or just from a codex entry or something. All I've said is that there is more to the Citadel then we know. Which is something we've guessed since ME1.

And a Reapers' speed has no advantage when faced with a sealed Citadel. The Reapers designed it to last, so that it couldn't be destroyed accidentally by organic life (known from ME1 I believe). They don't want to risk destroying it, as without the Relay network may not work (don't know for sure, but seeing as we know from ME1 it controls the network the Citadel's destruction could heavily impact the network's functionality). So instead of wasting energy trying to get in, they may as well just attack everyone's homeworld instead. instead of cutting off the head of the snake, they're just going to ensure there is nothing left for the head to rule. They don't need the Citadel to win - it just helps out normally as they have the element of surprise.

[devSin]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Firing a slug into an atmosphere would be pretty much the same as firing from inside an atmosphere. There would be some energy loss (20% or so according to the wiki)

If the barrel is sealed, maybe.

If it's not, it could never build up the same acceleration as when fired in space. Drag asserts from the beginning, rather than when a projectile that has attained maximum speed enters atmosphere. So it could start out slower (and continue to decelerate) than a slug fired from space would decelerate to by the time it hits is target.

Basically, all I was saying was that the entry you quoted says it would slow down, but actually, it would likely be even slower (meaning less energy, meaning less effective). :-)

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Also, given that Mass Effect technology exists in this universe, a ship's size has no real bearing on its ability to move. Obviously a dreadnought can't do acrobatics, but ME fields can make a dreadnought or Reaper much lighter (hence why Reapers can land) and so they can stil move about enough I'd imagine.

This directly contradicts the "lore" (just physics in this case), however.

Any ship that is more maneuverable (and in this instance, that means pretty much every other class of ship) can get out of the way by the time you can line up a shot. And you have to line up the shot, because the cannon can only fire straight.

I don't think a ship can be as maneuverable inside an atmosphere as it is in space (without throwing all credibility out the window), so I'm not sure what expectation you're having that it would be able to hit anything but a stationary or slower target (and the Reapers very well may not be moving or may not even care enough to move; I don't know).

Candidate 88766 wrote...

My point is that, given that the wiki makes a distinction between two Reaper weapons, and given that the only one confirmed to one-hit kill a dreadnought has yet to be seen in-game, the OP's initial statement about it being a lore error is wrong. The Thanix cannons might be able to destroy a dreadnought in one hit, but seeing as the codex doesn't state this it isn't a lore error. Besides, the Reapers' main gun can only one-hit the shields of a dreadnought according to the codex, not necessarily outright destroy the dreadnought in one hit.

I don't take the entry on Sovereign as really being accurate. If it has a spinal-mounted cannon at all (which isn't a given, since it didn't bother to even attack until it got stuck on a stick at the end of the Citadel battle), there's no telling how long he is from his tail to his beak nor what it would shoot (nor why his gun couldn't be more efficient than anything lowly organics could build) nor how hard it would hit (but "penetrating" surely means that the slug will hit home, not just deplete shields but leave the target untouched).

Honestly, I think it's something they'll retcon away, if they ever even intended it to be true. The beam-like weapons (which I know aren't actually energy weapons, but like I said, I don't remember the specifics from the ME2 codex) and maneuverability are far more effective than a static cannon that shoots space trash in a straight line (and they seem to go this direction instead of the codex's "it's big, so it must have a Hugh Jass cannon!" blurb).

Modifié par devSin, 12 février 2012 - 12:24 .

[Candidate 88766]

Baryonic_Member wrote...
]If you watch carefully, you'll see the stream isn't emitted from a tentacle. And before you entered the thread I already acknowledged (even suggesting) that it could be a smaller Reaper  than Sovereign. If you only would read through the read and not be lazy. It would only have taken a few minutes.

Irrelevant. Your point was:

The Codex states that the main gun of Sovereign would be able to destroy any Alliance ship with a single shot. 

My point was that this was wrong. regardless of what else you may have said after this and before my arrival, this is fundamentally wrong. The lore states this

At two kilometers long, its spinal-mounted main gun is likely capable of penetrating another dreadnought's kinetic barriers with a single shot. 

A Reaper's main gun can likely penetrate a dreadnought's shields in one hit.

It doesn't matter what you were saying to other people, that is what I was replying to. Regardless of what you said, you were wrong and all it took was a quick glance in the wiki to point it out. It may've been a smaller Reaper, and it may not have been one of its tentacle weapons, but there is no lore whatsoever that says a Reaper can one hit kill a dreadnought.



I'm trying not to be rude, but in future if you think you've noticed a plothole or a lore inconsistency, just do a quick read of that section of the wiki. It has all the codex entries there, and you're on the internet anyway. It would've taken a few minutes and avoided this whole affair.

Modifié par Candidate 88766, 12 février 2012 - 12:23 .

[Baryonic_Member]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Baryonic_Member wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Baryonic_Member wrote...

And BTW, why doesn't the Reapers invade the Citadel?

The people inside could just close the arms and they'd be safe. The Reapers can't risk destroying or even damaging the Citadel because it is integral to their plans, as it controls the Relays, is central to the Cycle, and has other more important roles that will be revealed in ME3.

**** YOU.

Sincerely.

Thanks for the spoilers.

**** you.

And the Reapers comissioned the Citadel, surerly they could find a way to open it. The only reason Sovereign didn't attack head on was because of the Citadel fleet, not because they would close the arms. Reapers are amazingly fast, able to make turns that would tear any alliance ship in half. With the Relay they can control the relay network and isolate. They're going to have to attack the Citadel sooner or later, why not sooner?

If you consider that a spoiler then you really shouldn't be on these forums any more. That was the vaguest I could possibly have been. It didn't tell you what the role is, whether its something important to the story or just from a codex entry or something. All I've said is that there is more to the Citadel then we know. Which is something we've guessed since ME1.

Sorry, I was overreacting. Perhaps something to do with the 12 Prothean scientists which were stranded there (since someone also spoiled that the Protheans will ahve a prominent role in ME3), whose fates are unknown. But to be fair, you did say "important roles". I r guess it has something 2 do with the Reaper demise. But sorry.

And a Reapers' speed has no advantage when faced with a sealed Citadel. The Reapers designed it to last, so that it couldn't be destroyed accidentally by organic life (known from ME1 I believe). They don't want to risk destroying it, as without the Relay network may not work (don't know for sure, but seeing as we know from ME1 it controls the network the Citadel's destruction could heavily impact the network's functionality). So instead of wasting energy trying to get in, they may as well just attack everyone's homeworld instead. instead of cutting off the head of the snake, they're just going to ensure there is nothing left for the head to rule. They don't need the Citadel to win - it just helps out normally as they have the element of surprise.

But they still have to take the Citadel sooner of later. Why rush blindly to Earth (and neighbouring systems) when they could subtly take over a single isolated colony, turn the colonists into sleeper agents, infilrtate the Citadel and take control of the Relay Network? Vigil said "[Reapers] are patient and will not rush into the unknown". It's disappointing when the villains get dumbed down. I liked it when they were unknowable Lovecraftian horrors, and not emotional with the need to taunt Shepard at every opportunity (Harbinger).

Modifié par Baryonic_Member, 12 février 2012 - 12:28 .

[TCGodzilla]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

TCGodzilla wrote...

Guys that was an Alliance cruiser attacking the Reaper dreadnought.

I thought only Frigates could enter the Atmosphere of a planet? Hell even the Normandy SR-2 can't land on High Gravity worlds.

They can't land on medium or high gravity worlds but I believe they can enter the atmosphere.

Modifié par TCGodzilla, 12 février 2012 - 12:31 .

[littlezack]

Baryonic_Member wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Baryonic_Member wrote...

And BTW, why doesn't the Reapers invade the Citadel?

The people inside could just close the arms and they'd be safe. The Reapers can't risk destroying or even damaging the Citadel because it is integral to their plans, as it controls the Relays, is central to the Cycle, and has other more important roles that will be revealed in ME3.

**** YOU.

Sincerely.

Thanks for the spoilers.

**** you.

And the Reapers comissioned the Citadel, surerly they could find a way to open it. The only reason Sovereign didn't attack head on was because of the Citadel fleet, not because they would close the arms. Reapers are amazingly fast, able to make turns that would tear any alliance ship in half. With the Relay they can control the relay network and isolate. They're going to have to attack the Citadel sooner or later, why not sooner?

Think about it.

The Citadel has been around for, likely, billions of years, maybe even more. During that time, it's probably been attacked numerous times. And we know that, as powerful as the Reapers are, it's not impossible to develop weaponry that rivals their own in terms of sheer power.

The Citadel has to be COMPLETELY impenetrable. If anyone ever gets into it, their plans are screwed. Also, even if they can get into before the arms close - which is a bit much to assume, since they wouldn't be able to just drop in with a relay - they still need someone inside to facilitate the process like Saren was doing, which they don't have anymore.

On top of all that, they'd need a few extra years to reach the Citadel; it took them two years just to get into the galaxy. During this time, they would have to remain completely undetected by the universe at large - one imagines that a fleet of gigantic warships traveling through the galaxy might eventually be spotted.

[Cushers Baby x]

Post irrelevant

Modifié par Cushers Baby x, 12 février 2012 - 12:39 .

[Baryonic_Member]

Cushers Baby x wrote...
 you've even played the first game you'll know that reapers, no matter the size, have a large enough mass effect core to be able to land and take off of planets.

I'm sorry, but that was exactly my point. Dreadnoughts cannot land on planets because they don't have the enormous eezo cores that Reaper have.

[Darth Death]

Bendok wrote...

The attitude amongst some people here is disappointing. You are posting on a forum about this video game specifically and you are telling someone who has concerns like this to get a life? The only reason OP posted this is cause obviously he cares about the game and the universe a lot, obviously more than you if this stuff doesn't matter to you. There's nothing wrong with holding Bioware to a high standard.. just like we did for the Deception novel. When the reports of that first came out people had the *exact* same attitude, until it got popular then all of a sudden they were concerned too. Then Bioware apologized and said they'd fix it, so they are listening.

It would be better if you just didn't post at all instead of throwing cheap and hypocritical insults. Unless you have something to contribute to the discussion at hand you should kindly press the back button.

Comments like these give me some hope for this place. It's sad that there's only a few who are considerate for others.