53 réponses à ce sujet

[TuringPoint]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I think Mystranna Kelteel is just HEARTLESS. If she had a fling with a woman who went on and on about her daughter, and said woman was brutally murdered in front of her, it wouldn't bother Mystranna at all. When she later met the daughter, who is cold, alone, and reduced to begging on the streets (doesn't even know her mother is dead), Myst would laugh as she waltzed on by.

  Exactly the reaction I was hoping for. 

I, at least, dropped a few coins on Iona's dead body before leaving.  That was the whole point of the exchange, you know.  Prostitution.  And we all know prostitution is deadly evil, yesss.

Modifié par Alocormin, 24 novembre 2009 - 05:43 .

[rumination888]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Humans have rights in the real world, but that doesn't seem to help homeless orphans.

You cannot eat rights. Rights cannot keep you warm at night or get you care when you fall ill. Rights for elves might help Amethyne, but having someone take care of her would help far more.

Thats a pretty basic view, isn't it?
The US certainly doesn't have the same right of health care as Canada does. But I digress.

Amethyne wouldnt be in her predicament if her mother could find work as anything other than a servant outside the alienage.
If Elves had better living conditions, there'd be a good chance she'd be adopted by another elf family nearby.

I guess I'm just the type of person who'd prefer to prevent future problems from occuring, rather than throw some cheap fix.

[TuringPoint]

If elves weren't culled like cattle, and kept in the chains of their alienage, their lot in life would be a lot better. Her rights would allow her to eat to greater satisfaction, certainly. BUT SHE CAN'T EAT RIGHTS, NOPE.

So funny to see you advocating blindness to human suffering in so many ways.

Modifié par Alocormin, 24 novembre 2009 - 06:07 .

[Maria Caliban]

rumination888 wrote...

I guess I'm just the type of person who'd prefer to prevent future problems from occuring...

Which does nothing for the current problem: helping a single elven girl whose mother we knew.

..rather than throw some cheap fix.

Yes, I'm sure a hungry child views someone giving them food and a place to stay as a 'cheap fix.'

[rumination888]

Yes, lets make it so the only way she can survive is by relying on you.
She doesn't have the right to work, but thats okay, because she can become your servant.

[TuringPoint]

Give a man a fish, he'll be grateful for a day! Brilliant.

[Maria Caliban]

rumination888 wrote...

Yes, lets make it so the only way she can survive is by relying on you.
She doesn't have the right to work, but thats okay, because she can become your servant.

Except there's nothing to stop you from helping her AND helping elves in general. However, if you ONLY help the elves in general, there's no guarantee that you've helped her.

I'd also like to know how finding someone to take care of her makes her reliant on you. Would she not be reliant on her new family? Last I checked, children often rely on their family.

[cpip]

Maria Caliban wrote...

When mom said "Oh, poor Dxxxx. I'm so sorry. She died because she came to me!"

For a moment, I though, "Damn, mom. I guess it runs in the family. Does dad know?"

Then I tried to loot her as well.

  That's delightfully wrong.

[TuringPoint]

Maria Caliban wrote...
Except there's nothing to stop you from helping her AND helping elves in general. However, if you ONLY help the elves in general, there's no guarantee that you've helped her.

I'd also like to know how finding someone to take care of her makes her reliant on you. Would she not be reliant on her new family? Last I checked, children often rely on their family.

But... I thought working for her rights was wrong? *single tear*

[rumination888]

Maria Caliban wrote...

rumination888 wrote...

Yes, lets make it so the only way she can survive is by relying on you.
She doesn't have the right to work, but thats okay, because she can become your servant.

Except there's nothing to stop you from helping her AND helping elves in general. However, if you ONLY help the elves in general, there's no guarantee that you've helped her.

I'd also like to know how finding someone to take care of her makes her reliant on you. Would she not be reliant on her new family? Last I checked, children often rely on their family.

Theres no gaurantee that the person you find to take care of her is making her life any better.

[TuringPoint]

There's no guarantee that you've helped anyone if you just help her In fact, both things need to change: her lot in life and every other elves' lot in life. Then we can move on.

I'm sure rumination just meant that she should starve to death, though.  Right? :innocent:

Modifié par Alocormin, 24 novembre 2009 - 06:15 .

[Mystranna Kelteel]

How much time passes between the origin and the Landsmeet anyway? I was under the impression that it was quite a lot.



So she's obviously fine and being looked after by someone. Someone should probably tell her to stop waiting by the gate, but...

[Serogon]

Alocormin wrote...

There's no guarantee that you've helped anyone if you just help her In fact, both things need to change: her lot in life and every other elves' lot in life. Then we can move on.

I'm sure rumination just meant that she should starve to death, though.  Right? :innocent:

*sigh*
Did you really have to throw in a backhanded insult while compromising?

[rumination888]

Alocormin wrote...

There's no guarantee that you've helped anyone if you just help her In fact, both things need to change: her lot in life and every other elves' lot in life. Then we can move on.

I'm sure rumination just meant that she should starve to death, though.  Right? :innocent:

Ri- WRONG.

[Foxd1e]

I would of handed Amethyne a picture of her mother back when she pregnant with her and told her that even though me and Iona were together for only a short time, we loved a lifetime's worth.

[TuringPoint]

I never intended to compromise. I saw an opportunity to attack, and I took it. It was all in the name of loving justice

Rumination is right, everyone else is wrong It's settled. Bwahahaha.

In particular, Maria has no morals and is blind to large-scale social problems.

Modifié par Alocormin, 24 novembre 2009 - 06:25 .

[Dakota Strider]

rumination888 wrote...
The US certainly doesn't have the same right of health care as Canada does. But I digress.

As long as we are digressing...is that the reason Canadians flock across their southern border anytime they are in serious need of medical treatment, instead of waiting inline for government rationed care?


Anyways...


I don't intend to sound like I speak for everyone's character, but I for one, would first worry about the immediate need of taking care of the little girl.  I would not turn her over to someone I did not know, or trust.  And while she would not be my character's #1 priority in life, he would also take the opportunity to check up on her, when it presented itself.  Temporarily, the Arl of Redcliff looks to be the best choice.  Once the Blight is quelled, then perhaps my brother Fergus would welcome her in our estate.  As a matter of fact, my character would insist on it.
 
It would be charity, of course.  But as the young girl grows, she would learn responsibilities and earn her place in the keep.  And while it may not pay as well as being an adventurer or nobility, she could do far worse than be a servant in a castle.

Secondly, while it would all be well in good to push for more elven rights in Denerim...by the time these rights are instituted, and they have any affect on the elven population, poor Amethyne could be dead from starvation, sickness or crime by then.  Its a great long term solution to strive for, but that is not how I would go about taking care of what I deemed to be my own personal responsibilites.

[TuringPoint]

Yes. We take care of both things, unlike what Maria was saying.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Who says this girl wants to be a servant in your castle anyways? Odds are the girl will jsut grow to resent you, especially if she knows the truth about her mother and comes to blame you.

[Serogon]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Who says this girl wants to be a servant in your castle anyways? Odds are the girl will jsut grow to resent you, especially if she knows the truth about her mother and comes to blame you.

Well, it's not your fault. She'd have died either way, everyone in the castle was butchered.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Serogon wrote...

Well, it's not your fault. She'd have died either way, everyone in the castle was butchered.

That's completely irrelevant. In Amethyne's eyes you could be to blame for the death of her mother because she died in your room. If you don't tell her the specifics, then she died in your castle.  These kind of emotions aren't 100% rational.

My main point is that it's not really your place to start running this girl's life (even if you think it's for the best) just because you had sex with her mother.

[TuringPoint]

It's not your place. I agree. But you can't even talk to her, find out what she's like on the most basic level. Or even give her a small gift, say it's from her mother? Don't force attentions on the girl, but come on, seriously?



Maybe it's a guy thing. I don't know.

[Sharog]

Regardless of it is right or wrong or morally/ethically important to take care of that girl or not, AN OPTION should be presented, why else does the npc has yellow marked name?? it is just the programmer forgot to implement the option, an oversight and nothing else.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Alocormin wrote...

Maybe it's a guy thing. I don't know.

What's a guy thing?
I'm not saying you can't help her. What I'm saying is that directly trying to change her lot in life might not even be what she wants for herself. The PC just doesn't have the right to do much for her.

Modifié par Mystranna Kelteel, 24 novembre 2009 - 06:44 .

[rumination888]

Dakota Strider wrote...

rumination888 wrote...
The US certainly doesn't have the same right of health care as Canada does. But I digress.

As long as we are digressing...is that the reason Canadians flock across their southern border anytime they are in serious need of medical treatment, instead of waiting inline for government rationed care?


Anyways...


I don't intend to sound like I speak for everyone's character, but I for one, would first worry about the immediate need of taking care of the little girl.  I would not turn her over to someone I did not know, or trust.  And while she would not be my character's #1 priority in life, he would also take the opportunity to check up on her, when it presented itself.  Temporarily, the Arl of Redcliff looks to be the best choice.  Once the Blight is quelled, then perhaps my brother Fergus would welcome her in our estate.  As a matter of fact, my character would insist on it.
 
It would be charity, of course.  But as the young girl grows, she would learn responsibilities and earn her place in the keep.  And while it may not pay as well as being an adventurer or nobility, she could do far worse than be a servant in a castle.

Secondly, while it would all be well in good to push for more elven rights in Denerim...by the time these rights are instituted, and they have any affect on the elven population, poor Amethyne could be dead from starvation, sickness or crime by then.  Its a great long term solution to strive for, but that is not how I would go about taking care of what I deemed to be my own personal responsibilites.

My point was that "humans have rights in the real world" doesn't mean anything. I used the rights of the US and the rights of Canada as an example. I had hoped no one would take it out of context and create a strawman. Thanks for dashing my hopes.

How do you know Amethyne would be dead from starvation, sickness, or crime?
As someone else pointed out, she's been without a mother for months and wasn't sick or starving at all.
She's just waiting by the gates, hoping her mother would return some day.

I said it in another thread and I'll say it here: Flemeth said it best, "Some people only believe what they want to believe"