421 réponses à ce sujet

[iPhantomous]

Mass Effect 3; saving the galaxy and Earth by yourself!
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But you're still stuck with a need-to-know basis. Suprise!

[Rudy Lis]

RVallant wrote...


It's obvious (to me anyway). The VS, is basically the only alliance marine heavily associated with Shepard with experience of Reapers.

What about Normandy crew? There were marines, some even died while protecting nuke on Virmire. Why Shepard choose those two - is different story.  I suppose it will start with words like "you know, consoles have limited hardware and we making dialogue-intensive RPG so we wanted to make every person unique, not some 17th raw pikeman" (Dr. Chakwas with 4 strings of text).

RVallant wrote...

Makes sense to fast track the VS in terms of rank and training given the missions they're doing 'off the grid'.

If they working "off the grid" who cares what ranks they are? What, colonel's rifle will shoot better than lieutenant's?

incinerator950 wrote...

I'm ex-Navy, four years out and I can still vaguely remeber E-1 through E-9 and E-10, and list off Ensign through Admirals and Staff or Supply.

To rephrase old saying - "you can pull guy out of military, but you cannot pull military of of guy"?

incinerator950 wrote...

Can't remember other branches though, but I'm living with my army buddy, I actually started to get him into ME 2.

I do know all ranks in local military and LE, know some from foreign militaries, although I'm too try to convince my buddies, acquaintances and other forms of people I know to play ME. Few agreed, so far. Where's my character menu, dammit? I need to put some points into persuasion!

incinerator950 wrote...

As for the Alliance Rank structure, I understand where it falls, what it means, and I can clearly see it in the ME 2 miscellaneous codex.

Basically I do understand, but fail when I try to understand system in more "detailed" way.

thoththeblack wrote...

The rank could also have to do with ship command. The VS is a Spectre and, like Shepard, could be given a ship with Alliance crew. Maybe even the Normandy while Shepard is grounded. They felt that she needed to be of a certain rank so they could order them about?

Why Normandy need crew when there is EDI?
I doubt rank has to do something when it comes to commanding ship or something. There is actual commander and until his superior (direct superior, not just some Miranda wannabe) relived him of his duties, commander will command, no matter who will buzz around. If certain ship is under lieutenant's command, than he will command it, even if he carry some admiral. No random officer is able to relive you of your duties, no matter how high they are and how low you are. If you just private, standing on guard duty, you have full right (I'd say more, by our regulations you MUST) to ignore any officer, including your direct commander, and even shot him, should he ignore your orders. Yes, your orders. One and only person, whose orders you have to follow - is guard commander.

[incinerator950]

daqs wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

It makes sense to me.  

Let me rephrase: the actual hierarchy makes sense, but the grade names don't.

I can understand peoples reasoning on this. I was scratching my head at the wiki before I looked at the codex.  When I saw the ranks, I realized they did not do a direct copypasta of the US and Canadian militaries.  It made some sense as to how promotions work, it just didn't make actual sense that peoples uniforms are completely different (I don't have a great TV to pick detail, have to use my laptop pictures) and that the VS got a massive promotion from six months and a Spectre enstatement.

[The Grey Ranger]

Just a minor thought here, back when I was in (US Army), there was a program where a doctor could join the army and have a starting rank of Captain, perhaps something similar applies to spectres, in Alliance service. It wouldn't really be all that outrageous for Shep not to have had that applied since he was the test case.

[incinerator950]

@Rudis

Hah, you have that on the nail. My friend loves the military humor that is occasionally present in ME 2. I was going to have him go through the ME 2 Genesis because I didn't want to bore him to death with ME 1, but the DLC wasn't loading even if my profile had the re-download activation, so something happened with the registry.

[izmirtheastarach]

The Grey Ranger wrote...

Just a minor thought here, back when I was in (US Army), there was a program where a doctor could join the army and have a starting rank of Captain, perhaps something similar applies to spectres, in Alliance service. It wouldn't really be all that outrageous for Shep not to have had that applied since he was the test case.

Except that wasn't it the game. Coming up with your own explanation is fun, but doesn't really address the issues.

Modifié par izmirtheastarach, 13 février 2012 - 08:11 .

[Inquisitor Recon]

I've always been puzzled by the lack of Lt. Colonel and Colonel.

Also what is Anderson, Navy or Marines? Because he seems to be doing everything.

I conclude that the Systems Alliance rank system is ****ed up, like their habit of making me pay for every half-way decent armor kit and weapon in ME1.

Modifié par ReconTeam, 13 février 2012 - 08:14 .

[The Grey Ranger]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

The Grey Ranger wrote...

Just a minor thought here, back when I was in (US Army), there was a program where a doctor could join the army and have a starting rank of Captain, perhaps something similar applies to spectres, in Alliance service. It wouldn't really be all that outrageous for Shep not to have had that applied since he was the test case.

Except that wasn't it the game. Coming up with your own explanation is fun, but doesn't really address the issues.

It wasn't shown, but stuff does happen in an off camera sort of way.  As far as I know we never see Ash/Kaiden get made a spectre or promoted.  It was also mentioned in ME2 that there were other human spectre candidates.  I seem to recall the conversation between 2 asari on the Citadel.

[AlanC9]

daqs wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

It makes sense to me.  

Let me rephrase: the actual hierarchy makes sense, but the grade names don't.

So instead of using our arbitrary grade names, they're using a different set of arbitrary grade names? I don't quite see the issue.

[izmirtheastarach]

The Grey Ranger wrote...

It wasn't shown, but stuff does happen in an off camera sort of way.  As far as I know we never see Ash/Kaiden get made a spectre or promoted.  It was also mentioned in ME2 that there were other human spectre candidates.  I seem to recall the conversation between 2 asari on the Citadel.

The difference there is that Shepard is the protaganist. When stuff happens too him off camera, it break immersion. Also, his rank is mentioned quite often.

Anyways, with some expert input we seem to have come up with a legitimate explanation for Kaidan's rank. But Ash's is never going to make sense no matter how you parse it. That's why apparently they retconned her rank in ME2, according to the codex in the leaked beta.

Modifié par izmirtheastarach, 13 février 2012 - 08:16 .

[CaptainZaysh]

Air36723 wrote...

As someone who has served in the military, the promotions and/or lack there of for some characters is just asinine. Anyone jumped in rank like ash was would NEVER have the respect of the lower enlisted because they would be seen as political appointments and not "earned". It would be a case of saying yes ma'am in the sarcastic manner. I'll admit ash deserves some promotions, but from gunnery chief to LtCDR in under 2 years? Not freakin likely unless someone called in a favor the size of our sun.

I hear what you're saying but I'm not sure you're right about that.  I personally know two guys who were bumped up from senior NCO to Captain after doing one combat tour (one from the Falklands, one from Afghan), and I believe they had the respect of the troops they commanded.

[AlanC9]

ReconTeam wrote...

I've always been puzzled by the lack of Lt. Colonel and Colonel.

Also what is Anderson, Navy or Marines? Because he seems to be doing everything.

I conclude that the Systems Alliance rank system is ****ed up, like their habit of making me pay for every half-way decent armor kit and weapon in ME1.

Maybe colonel just went away in a big re-org. Like commodore, which keeps coming and going in US practice.

As for Anderson, he's got a career path like Shepard's, no?

[incinerator950]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

The Grey Ranger wrote...

Just a minor thought here, back when I was in (US Army), there was a program where a doctor could join the army and have a starting rank of Captain, perhaps something similar applies to spectres, in Alliance service. It wouldn't really be all that outrageous for Shep not to have had that applied since he was the test case.

Except that wasn't it the game. Coming up with your own explanation is fun, but doesn't really address the issues.

It creates an analogy which can be used as a possible speculation for a comparison to more easily explain it.

[Aimi]

ReconTeam wrote...

I've always been puzzled by the lack of Lt. Colonel and Colonel.

Also what is Anderson, Navy or Marines? Because he seems to be doing everything.

I conclude that the Systems Alliance rank system is ****ed up, like their habit of making me pay for every half-way decent armor kit and weapon in ME1.

Colonel and Lt. Colonel were erased. Major is the equivalent of a colonelcy in the Systems Alliance. This is one of my pet peeves, along with the inclusion of "staff" ranks that have nothing to do with an actual staff appointment.

The marines - no capitalization - are explicitly a subset of the navy, and officers with the appropriate training apparently have the ability to alternate between assignments. Anderson and Shepard both began their careers as marines but seem to have assumed naval commands relatively easily. In the abstract this doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but it's at least theoretically possible to justify with the pre-ME1 time lag between Shep and Anderson's ground assignments and their career as naval officers. In practice this was obviously a reason to justify Shepard's ability to both set the Normandy's course and go groundside to mix it up with geth, mercenaries, pirates and such.

I also agree that the Alliance's system of military procurement was pretty ridiculous. 

[Rudy Lis]

Air36723 wrote...

As someone who has served in the military, the promotions and/or lack there of for some characters is just asinine. Anyone jumped in rank like ash was would NEVER have the respect of the lower enlisted because they would be seen as political appointments and not "earned". It would be a case of saying yes ma'am in the sarcastic manner.

My thoughts exactly. Only better spoken.

daqs wrote...

Let me rephrase: the actual hierarchy makes sense, but the grade names don't.

In this case I agree.

incinerator950 wrote...

it just didn't make actual sense that peoples uniforms are completely different (I don't have a great TV to pick detail, have to use my laptop pictures)

In ME1 there were 2 types of alliance uniforms with insignia - with 3 stripes (Anderson and Mikhailovich) and with 1 stripe (Pressley and Kahoku, not sure about Adams). WTF is that I don't know - since Mikhailovich and Kahoku are both rear-admirals. I tried to compare stripes width and length (no, seriously, we had rather heated debates on topic), but was unable to spot any differences.
In ME2 Hackett have 4 stripes, if memory serves.

[izmirtheastarach]

incinerator950 wrote...

It creates an analogy which can be used as a possible speculation for a comparison to more easily explain it.

Once you dudes with military experience dissected Kaidan's deal, that made sense for me. I don't even really have to examine it, or create and alternative head-canon. We know he got promoted to Staff Commander sometime between ME1 and ME2, and then promoted to Major later, in order to command & train a special forces Biotic company. This is all very easy to work through.

So my ME universe makes sense to me. It's the one were Ashley is still alive that doesn't.

Modifié par izmirtheastarach, 13 février 2012 - 08:25 .

[incinerator950]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

It creates an analogy which can be used as a possible speculation for a comparison to more easily explain it.

Once you dudes with military experience dissected Kaidan's deal, that made sense for me. I don't even really have to examine it, or create and alternative head-canon. We know he got promoted to Staff Commander sometime between ME1 and ME2, and then promoted to Major later, in order to command & train a special forces Biotic company. This is all very easy to work through.

So my ME universe makes sense to me. It's the one were Ashley is still alive that doesn't.

I don't disagree that one, infact I don't regret my decision to edit my ME 2 Adept to kill off Ashley.

Honestly I see the new Spectre Candidates as another PR stunt like Shepard was.  The Spectres are a sign of the council's power and favor, the Spectres are choosing who is good enough to serve, but the Alliance is offering up people who serve her interests.  

Hence why I can see someone in the enlisted ranks not respecting Ashley, maybe Kaidan if they heard he was some Biotic hero or Biotic Boogeyman.  

[Aimi]

AlanC9 wrote...

So instead of using our arbitrary grade names, they're using a different set of arbitrary grade names? I don't quite see the issue.

Part of the problem emerges when their grade names are the same as current ones but don't actually mean the same thing, which creates wholly unnecessary confusion and is difficult to justify in an in-universe sense. The other part of the problem is their weird "staff" ranks that have nothing to do with an actual staff assignment and again promote confusion to little purpose.

You brought up the position of commodore in another post, which has been around periodically in American usage. But "commodore", both when it was an actual grade and when it was merely an honorary title, always meant just about the same thing: an officer with some sort of command over a small group of multiple vessels. Sometimes the assignment was provisional, and sometimes, as during the Second World War, it was formalized. But "commodore" has never indicated a grade higher than, say, vice admiral. Yet this is precisely what BioWare pulled with their weird "major" reclassification.

It'd be like having a Systems Alliance government in which the president was the head of government and the prime minister was the head of state, a reversal of traditional roles. There's no actual reason to do it, other than perhaps out of some misguided sense that because time has passed, some things must change regardless of whether it makes sense for them to do so.

[izmirtheastarach]

I know some people have argued that promotion is needed in order to make someone a Spectre. But that makes no sense to me because being a Spectre carries it's own authority. I was able to say no to a Rear Admiral in ME1, based solely on my Shep's authority as a Spectre.

[Rudy Lis]

incinerator950 wrote...

@Rudis

Hah, you have that on the nail. My friend loves the military humor that is occasionally present in ME 2.

Not sure about nails, but there is problem - none of us are Americans or Canadians. Well, at least "by born" - some are naturalized, or whatever. So certain phrases requires either detailed translation and  explanation and/or adaptation. Not that it's big problem, especially when you not tied by "rating", since you translate unofficially and can use expletives and profanities, but it breaks immersion a bit.

incinerator950 wrote...

I was going to have him go through the ME 2 Genesis because I didn't want to bore him to death with ME 1, but the DLC wasn't loading even if my profile had the re-download activation, so something happened with the registry.

Sorry to hear that.

The Grey Ranger wrote...

Just a minor thought here, back when I was in (US Army), there was a program where a doctor could join the army and have a starting rank of Captain, perhaps something similar applies to spectres, in Alliance service. It wouldn't really be all that outrageous for Shep not to have had that applied since he was the test case.

Maybe because this is not "field" rank and few expect from captain of medicine being able to command a company? Can't say it's normal practice here, but I've seen some "civies" who being granted ranks when they applied as "technical" or "medical" specialists. But none of them were above WO.

AlanC9 wrote...

So instead of using our arbitrary grade names, they're using a different set of arbitrary grade names? I don't quite see the issue.

Because they are not clear - you don't know what list of resposibilies and duties each ranks brings. Where are limits - upper and lower.

[RVallant]

Rudy Lis wrote...

RVallant wrote...


It's obvious (to me anyway). The VS, is basically the only alliance marine heavily associated with Shepard with experience of Reapers.

What about Normandy crew? There were marines, some even died while protecting nuke on Virmire. Why Shepard choose those two - is different story.  I suppose it will start with words like "you know, consoles have limited hardware and we making dialogue-intensive RPG so we wanted to make every person unique, not some 17th raw pikeman" (Dr. Chakwas with 4 strings of text).

Because, theoretically, they're the ones on the ground with relations to both Anderson and Shepard and experience on the battlefield. Those who survived the events of ME2's intro, probably got reassigned and didn't have the connection the VS is 'supposed' to have with Shep and Anderson.

I could easily have seen it being Pressly had he not bought the farm. Of course, I expect there are other alliance members (like the two engineers who supported Shepard for ME2) whom are pro-Shepard but either got swept under the carpet or mothballed. The VS survivor being handpicked out of that little scenario. Just speculation on my part though.

RVallant wrote...

Makes sense to fast track the VS in terms of rank and training given the missions they're doing 'off the grid'.

If they working "off the grid" who cares what ranks they are? What, colonel's rifle will shoot better than lieutenant's?

Off the grid from Alliance command is my assumption. I have a feeling their duties are purely on orders of Anderson and Hackett who I would also think are stonewalling the rest of Alliance command from interfering with them.

Given Shepard is dead for two years before he returns to active duty, speeding them through the ranks as a potential replacement makes sense. They may as well continue to do so as when Shepard returns he's with Cerberus and his name is a mixed reputation (to the Council at least). So while Shep can keep Spectre status and cosy up to the Council and the Alliance, it seems more worthwhile to have a second pro-Shepard Alliance spectre who will possibly be listened (which, if we go off ME2 doesn't work anyway!)

I'm just speculating though, in my head it makes sense for Anderson and possibly Hackett to be pulling those strings. More so for Ashley who's name is dirt (supposedly) anyway. Of course, I might be miles off the mark and they're just promoting them for fun. Who knows.

[AlanC9]

daqs wrote...
Part of the problem emerges when their grade names are the same as current ones but don't actually mean the same thing, which creates wholly unnecessary confusion and is difficult to justify in an in-universe sense. The other part of the problem is their weird "staff" ranks that have nothing to do with an actual staff assignment and again promote confusion to little purpose.

Gotcha. Note that it's only confusing for players who both know current practice and expect to apply that to ME. For me the former is true, but not the latter -- I just looked at the Codex and accepted that table. I kind of like the rank table being similar to our current one without being identical, but YMMV.

As for Shepard and Anderson's career paths, I always assumed that this was somewhat similar to USN practice for aircraft carrier command. Presumably it would only apply to vessels which are supposed to deliver ground forces into combat areas rather than, say, dreadnaughts.

[Rudy Lis]

RVallant wrote...

Because, theoretically, they're the ones on the ground with relations to both Anderson and Shepard and experience on the battlefield. Those who survived the events of ME2's intro, probably got reassigned and didn't have the connection the VS is 'supposed' to have with Shep and Anderson.

Well, why they were on the battlefield? Yes, on Eden Prime Shep and Kaidan were because of Anderson orders, but later, after "spectracle"? Why Ashley and not that marine standing at left side from communications room door? Just because Ashley were on EP and triggered "whoops, meh flying and clenching teef" cutscene? 

RVallant wrote...

I could easily have seen it being Pressly had he not bought the farm. Of course, I expect there are other alliance members (like the two engineers who supported Shepard for ME2) whom are pro-Shepard but either got swept under the carpet or mothballed. The VS survivor being handpicked out of that little scenario. Just speculation on my part though.

Pressley-Spectre? Ambiguity...

RVallant wrote...

Off the grid from Alliance command is my assumption. I have a feeling their duties are purely on orders of Anderson and Hackett who I would also think are stonewalling the rest of Alliance command from interfering with them.

Again, "vague" area of development. Usually there is recon unit (or even several of them), working in interest of unit they attached to. I doubt it would be wise to inform other commands about activities of such units. My IMHO.

RVallant wrote...

Given Shepard is dead for two years before he returns to active duty, speeding them through the ranks as a potential replacement makes sense. They may as well continue to do so as when Shepard returns he's with Cerberus and his name is a mixed reputation (to the Council at least). So while Shep can keep Spectre status and cosy up to the Council and the Alliance, it seems more worthwhile to have a second pro-Shepard Alliance spectre who will possibly be listened (which, if we go off ME2 doesn't work anyway!)

I'm just speculating though, in my head it makes sense for Anderson and possibly Hackett to be pulling those strings. More so for Ashley who's name is dirt (supposedly) anyway. Of course, I might be miles off the mark and they're just promoting them for fun. Who knows.

I doubt Anderson and Hackett would risk to "fast forwarding" someone through ranks - they, in first place, whould know risks of such actions. Supposedly, they both pass through every step in their careers, so they know what subordination and CoC means. I don't think they would risk such... "thing", just to create replacement for Shepard. Not sure about Council part - in all my games they were saved and Shepard got himself reinstated, so, go figure.

[Rudy Lis]

AlanC9 wrote...

As for Shepard and Anderson's career paths, I always assumed that this was somewhat similar to USN practice for aircraft carrier command. Presumably it would only apply to vessels which are supposed to deliver ground forces into combat areas rather than, say, dreadnaughts.

It also could be this: Anderson is rather aging guy and as he says himself (in ME2 though), his fighting days are over. So he as experienced and well respected officer, has been given comand over small ship, other than some "airline" or PMC job. Sort of. He's been given this ship, not some cruiser.
Simply put - my point is Anderson, as well as Shepard, may took some courses a-la "commanding space ship for dummies" and command Normandy because it is rather small. Plus, don't forget all those no-named NPCs, I'm pretty sure there is full deck of specialists, so you don't need to "know-it-all" kinds, just know technical characteristics of your ship and saying things like "let's fly there". Crew will do proper calculations and estimations and bring commander and ship where asked. So to speak.

[Solid Sherlock]

I apologize if this is veering off topic, but for some time I've wanted someone knowledgeable to explain to me the difference in the military ranks of mass effect. I've never asked because I feel a bit embarrassed about my ignorance on the topic and looking it up on google searches or wikipedia just serves to confuse me more. I know we don't actually have a canon explanation for what the duties are of each rank, but given what we do know about real military ranks what is your best guess as to what the responsibilities of each position be? What is the difference between enlisted, NCO, and officer? What is the difference between a Private 2nd class, 1st class, and Corporal? What is the difference between a service, gunnery, and operations chief? Are all ranks 2nd Lieutenant and up (officers) in some sort of leadership capacity?

Just for a bit of context the reason I ask beyond general curiosity is that I've had thoughts about joining a mass effect roleplay and wanted to make character who was a medic in the military, specifically in some sort of anti-terrorism unit like the United States HRT or German GSG9. However being woefully ignorant about such things I am incapable of really writing a history of his service. Once again I apologize if this is to off topic, if so please just ignore me and continue on.

Modifié par Solid Sherlock, 13 février 2012 - 09:19 .