421 réponses à ce sujet

[GIJooTheWarHero]

paul165 wrote...

Based on? Shepard is an officer as far as I can tell Shepard went to officer school as they are, you know, an officer. Nothing in the codex to indicate that Shepard is or ever has been a grunt and especially for any biotics (who are extremely rare) and/or spacer background Sheps it would make a lot more sense for them to go straight to officer school.

If Shepard enlisted then they went private to Lt Commander in a decade - that's even more ridiculous than Williams:whistle:

If I missed something please let me know - might help the headcanon!

One of the dialogue options with Private Jenkins in ME1 has Shepard reply something along the lines of "blah blah you patch us Marines up blah". Also, all of the pre-service backgrounds list Shepard as enlisting at 18. You don't enlist into the officer ranks and there wouldn't ever be an 18 year old officer.

Shepard and Anderson both went through the N7 program at Grissom. That seems to be a mix between advanced spec ops training and OCS.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Ash/Kaiden proved they can survive in impossible situations... like a Spectre candidate. The least they could do is promote them to a level indicative of that.

Which Shepard didn't even get a promotion to Staff Commander?

How do you make someone look like they'll be "better" than Shepard was?

I'll answer my own question... you give them a higher rank.

[paul165]

GIJooTheWarHero wrote...

Prom001 wrote...

that too doesnt make sense...

Sure it does. They had Commande Shepard running around the galaxy saving everything and their unborn babies. Huge boost to the image of humanity. The Alliance wants to repeat that with another Spectre and they know that the rank of Lt. Commander has a lot of gusto behind it. People associate safety with the Commander. Hence the promotion for publicity.

Which is fine providing they never have to interact with the conventional military structure ever again.....

If they do then they start running into real problems with trying to wield the authority conferred by a PR Stunt

Not to mention I could see them viewing that as incredibly insulting to both the military and themselves it is devalues both everything the rank structure is supposed to mean and everything they accomplished.

Tl;dr want a PR stunt give them a medal - don't promote them.

[bennyjammin79]

LOL. Nip picking. Racist.

[GIJooTheWarHero]

paul165 wrote...

GIJooTheWarHero wrote...

Prom001 wrote...

that too doesnt make sense...

Sure it does. They had Commande Shepard running around the galaxy saving everything and their unborn babies. Huge boost to the image of humanity. The Alliance wants to repeat that with another Spectre and they know that the rank of Lt. Commander has a lot of gusto behind it. People associate safety with the Commander. Hence the promotion for publicity.

Which is fine providing they never have to interact with the conventional military structure ever again.....

If they do then they start running into real problems with trying to wield the authority conferred by a PR Stunt

Not to mention I could see them viewing that as incredibly insulting to both the military and themselves it is devalues both everything the rank structure is supposed to mean and everything they accomplished.

Tl;dr want a PR stunt give them a medal - don't promote them.

You're talking about devaluing the rank structure in a game where you can jump from private to lieutenant commander in 10 years?

[Aimi]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

How about British ranks then? Whatever. You have a different opinion. That's fine. I don't agree. It's an overly simplified system and I don't like it. And that's not what the thread is really about anyways.

It's not really even "simplified". Integrating "staff" into the titles of certain grades introduces wholly unnecessary confusion between staff and line officers.  Adding an extra lieutenancy makes no sense and seems to have been done chiefly so that Kaidan could be an experienced combat-tested soldier while still clearly having a lower grade than Shepard in ME1. Renaming the colonelcy to "major" just seems like a gratuitous alteration done to show that the system has changed since the modern era, regardless of whether the changes make any freaking sense. And so on, and so forth.

tl;dr I agree with you

[incinerator950]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Ash/Kaiden proved they can survive in impossible situations... like a Spectre candidate. The least they could do is promote them to a level indicative of that.

Which Shepard didn't even get a promotion to Staff Commander?

How do you make someone look like they'll be "better" than Shepard was?

I'll answer my own question... you give them a higher rank.

I forgot to answer you when I confused myself by talking about Shepard not getting a promotion.  The sleaping pitbull next to me is dreaming and I can here him making noises, it's distracting.

[ElitePinecone]

There's also a chance to discuss the promotion with Lt. Commander Williams:

"So what's all this Lieutenant-Commander business?

You've worked hard. You deserve it."

[ElitePinecone]

incinerator950 wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...

From the leaked beta's codex:

"After earning numerous commendations early in her career, Williams became a platoon guide on Eden Prime, where she was the only member of her unit to survive the geth attack.
Williams then served as gunnery chief under Commander Shepard on the SSV Normandy and was promoted to lieutenant commander after the Battle of the Citadel. More recently, an Alliance tribunal called on Williams to testify about her experience with the Reapers."

Which is an injected Retcon, because we have Anderson (possibly TIM) tell us she is Operation's Chief after the battle.  Of course, this is a waste of time, and we can say it happened after BotC, and ME 2.

Yeah, I was about to point out Anderson's line.

Though you could say in general terms, her promotion to Lt Commander *was* after the Citadel (well, two years...)

[Prom001]

paul165 wrote...

GIJooTheWarHero wrote...

paul165 wrote...

I tend to agree with this Alenko can be kind of hand waved going from Staff Lt to Major in ~3 years is incredible but possible - albeit incredibly unlikely.

For contrast Shepard enlisted at 18 so it took them ~ a decade to go 4 ranks (2nd Lt - Lt Commander) depending of course on how long officer training is. Even assuming a 4 year course though still means Alenko is promoted twice as fast as Shepard.

Note that Shepard's speed of promotion tallies quite well with Anderson's who was a XO at 28.

Williams on the other hand is immersion breaking she went from a mid rank NCO to a mid rank officer in the same period. We also know that she was still an NCO on Horizon so somehow she went from operations chief to Lt. Commander in what a year? Year and a half?

Given she had to attend OCS that means she has had maybe a year as an officer which means I could maybe see her as a, so new it squeaks, 1st Lt but not a commander.

Shepard was an enlisted Marine when he first joined. So...that kind of puts a damper on your inital theory.

Based on? Shepard is an officer as far as I can tell Shepard went to officer school as they are, you know, an officer. Nothing in the codex to indicate that Shepard is or ever has been a grunt and especially for any biotics (who are extremely rare) and/or spacer background Sheps it would make a lot more sense for them to go straight to officer school.

If Shepard enlisted then they went private to Lt Commander in a decade - that's even more ridiculous than Williams:whistle:

If I missed something please let me know - might help the headcanon!

Cant an enlisted soldier decided to enroll in an officer academy?

[incinerator950]

ElitePinecone wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...

From the leaked beta's codex:

"After earning numerous commendations early in her career, Williams became a platoon guide on Eden Prime, where she was the only member of her unit to survive the geth attack.
Williams then served as gunnery chief under Commander Shepard on the SSV Normandy and was promoted to lieutenant commander after the Battle of the Citadel. More recently, an Alliance tribunal called on Williams to testify about her experience with the Reapers."

Which is an injected Retcon, because we have Anderson (possibly TIM) tell us she is Operation's Chief after the battle.  Of course, this is a waste of time, and we can say it happened after BotC, and ME 2.

Yeah, I was about to point out Anderson's line.

Though you could say in general terms, her promotion to Lt Commander *was* after the Citadel (well, two years...)

Yeah, it just skews the time perspective when she gets a commission in a time frame. 

[ElitePinecone]

GIJooTheWarHero wrote...

paul165 wrote...

Based on? Shepard is an officer as far as I can tell Shepard went to officer school as they are, you know, an officer. Nothing in the codex to indicate that Shepard is or ever has been a grunt and especially for any biotics (who are extremely rare) and/or spacer background Sheps it would make a lot more sense for them to go straight to officer school.

If Shepard enlisted then they went private to Lt Commander in a decade - that's even more ridiculous than Williams:whistle:

If I missed something please let me know - might help the headcanon!

One of the dialogue options with Private Jenkins in ME1 has Shepard reply something along the lines of "blah blah you patch us Marines up blah". Also, all of the pre-service backgrounds list Shepard as enlisting at 18. You don't enlist into the officer ranks and there wouldn't ever be an 18 year old officer.

Shepard and Anderson both went through the N7 program at Grissom. That seems to be a mix between advanced spec ops training and OCS.

I think you're right.

The idea is that 'marines' can eventually become officers in the Alliance navy, because it's part of the same force. Anderson was a grunt in the First Contact War and thirty or so years later was commanding ships and eventually made Admiral. 

The N7 program seems to accelerate this, we know Shepard was the Normandy's XO (and could be considered for ship command) despite still taking part in ground operations and despite having apparently enlisted as a marine. 

One of Shepard's lines on the Migrant Fleet is that s/he never made the Alliance rank of Captain - which is the naval one, not the Marines' 'Major'. So at some point Shepard's career path moved to the space side of the rank structure. 

[Prom001]

bennyjammin79 wrote...

LOL. Nip picking. Racist.

it was a mistake as english is not my first language.

also it wolud make me an sexist no, because subconsciously i wanted to write nipple right?

[FeralEwok]

GIJooTheWarHero wrote...

You're talking about devaluing the rank structure in a game where you can jump from private to lieutenant commander in 10 years?

It's not common but again like I have been saying:

It happens.

Take any of the three backgrounds for Shepard. He enlists at 18. He goes to basic where he gets a boot up his ass on Titan for about 9 weeks. Seeing as how he has no higher education he is an enlisted marine. Say he does pretty good and manages to graduate basic and his technical school (if he had one) at the top of his class. So his CO promotes him once. He is then sent to his duty station to now serve. He does a good job blah blah blah and in a year he is promoted again along with most other privates that went in the same time he did. So now he is around a 3rd rank (dont know the Alliance one...probably should look it up.) So I am just going to say he is a private first class. Now if he works really hard and pleases the brass he can make Corporal in about say under 36 months. He does. Now he has a job as a team lead and boy is he working his butt off...he is wanting those stripes. Sure enough he makes it past the 3 year marker and is now eligable for Sergeant.

He does his warrior leader courses, yells at a few privates and before you know it BAM! He's ready for Sergeant. They promote him and he is now a squad leader. He's worked hard and says "You know what? I collected all this leave so I am going to take some time off for awhile. I hear Elysiam is nice this time of year." He goes and what do you know? Batarian raiders come and start shooting the place up. Shepard being the bad ass he is holds them off by organising an improvised defense all while off-duty.

Word spreads around. News stories want to interview him, and his commanding officer recommends him for the star of tera. Upon recieving the star of Tera they say "You know what Shepard? You're a pretty BMF. Let's send you to officer training." He goes and easy peasy he comes out a LT. in just over 4 years of Service. Now because he is such a BMF he decides to drop a packet for Spec Ops training. He goes and sure enough once again he passes top of his class and is off doing crazy stuff for the Alliance. Kicking ass and taking names. It's only a matter of time inside spec ops he recieves the rank of Commander. 5 more years to be exact.

Then ME1 happens.

[Prom001]

@FeralEwok

Cant an enlisted soldier decided to enroll in an officer academy?

Seeing as how he has no higher education.

evening school?

Modifié par Prom001, 12 février 2012 - 10:14 .

[Han Shot First]

ElitePinecone wrote...

(More to the point: why on earth would a multinational organisation like the Alliance use US ranks? They already have a 'Parliament', so we know the American influence isn't strong.)

In Mass Effect: Revelation it is mentioned that Jon Grissom (first human through the Charon relay) had been a US Marine before he was Alliance. IIRC it was also stated that either the Alliance military took inspiration from the US Marine Corps, or that many of the early Alliance Marines had come from the US Marines. I can't recall which. At any rate at the formation of the Alliance the US would still be a world power, one of the most populous nations in the world, and a nation that has mastered space flight, so there would be *some* American influence on the Alliance.
Even so I agree that it wouldn't make sense for the Alliance rank structure to be based entirely on the US rank structure, as the Alliance is a multinational force, and all the spacefaring nations are likely to have had a large influence on it.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 12 février 2012 - 10:17 .

[GIJooTheWarHero]

ElitePinecone wrote...

GIJooTheWarHero wrote...

One of the dialogue options with Private Jenkins in ME1 has Shepard reply something along the lines of "blah blah you patch us Marines up blah". Also, all of the pre-service backgrounds list Shepard as enlisting at 18. You don't enlist into the officer ranks and there wouldn't ever be an 18 year old officer.

Shepard and Anderson both went through the N7 program at Grissom. That seems to be a mix between advanced spec ops training and OCS.

I think you're right.

The idea is that 'marines' can eventually become officers in the Alliance navy, because it's part of the same force. Anderson was a grunt in the First Contact War and thirty or so years later was commanding ships and eventually made Admiral. 

The N7 program seems to accelerate this, we know Shepard was the Normandy's XO (and could be considered for ship command) despite still taking part in ground operations and despite having apparently enlisted as a marine. 

One of Shepard's lines on the Migrant Fleet is that s/he never made the Alliance rank of Captain - which is the naval one, not the Marines' 'Major'. So at some point Shepard's career path moved to the space side of the rank structure. 

Ground forces are just specially trained Alliance personel. There are no longer different branches of military. It's like if the US just decided to cram everyone into the same service titled the US Armed Forces, but everyone keeps their ranks.

Prom001 wrote...

bennyjammin79 wrote...

LOL. Nip picking. Racist.

it was a mistake as english is not my first language.

also it wolud make me an sexist no, because subconsciously i wanted to write nipple right? ../../../images/forum/emoticons/grin.png

That doesn't make you sexist. I'm pretty sure the desire for nipple is universal across all genders and sexualities.

Sources: Myself, female and gay acquiantences.

[ElitePinecone]

ENLISTED

Serviceman 3rd class/Private 2nd class
Serviceman 2nd class/Private 1st class
Serviceman 1st class/Corporal

NCOs
Service Chief
Gunnery Chief
Operations Chief

OFFICERS
2nd Lieutenant
1st Lieutenant
Staff Lieutenant
Lieutenant Commander
Staff Commander
Captain/Major
Rear Admiral/General
Admiral
Fleet Admiral

[paul165]

GIJooTheWarHero wrote...

One of the dialogue options with Private Jenkins in ME1 has Shepard reply something along the lines of "blah blah you patch us Marines up blah". Also, all of the pre-service backgrounds list Shepard as enlisting at 18. You don't enlist into the officer ranks and there wouldn't ever be an 18 year old officer.

Shepard and Anderson both went through the N7 program at Grissom. That seems to be a mix between advanced spec ops training and OCS.

A Marine officer is still a Marine. The Alliance military is roughly based on the US so according to the almighty Wikipedia you can enlist in the military academy from the age of seventeen and on completing the course four years later are commissioned as a 2nd Lt.

Fits fairly well with what we know of Anderson who was a Lt and a N7 at 20 as it is plausible that he took the N7 course, as you say, as part of his officer training.

Bottom line it makes no sense for either biotic!Shep or spacer!Shep to go the enlisted route rather than going straight into military academy at Arcturus.

Doubt there will ever be a final answer though so I suspect it boils down to individual headcanon.

[incinerator950]

paul165 wrote...

GIJooTheWarHero wrote...

One of the dialogue options with Private Jenkins in ME1 has Shepard reply something along the lines of "blah blah you patch us Marines up blah". Also, all of the pre-service backgrounds list Shepard as enlisting at 18. You don't enlist into the officer ranks and there wouldn't ever be an 18 year old officer.

Shepard and Anderson both went through the N7 program at Grissom. That seems to be a mix between advanced spec ops training and OCS.

A Marine officer is still a Marine. The Alliance military is roughly based on the US so according to the almighty Wikipedia you can enlist in the military academy from the age of seventeen and on completing the course four years later are commissioned as a 2nd Lt.

Fits fairly well with what we know of Anderson who was a Lt and a N7 at 20 as it is plausible that he took the N7 course, as you say, as part of his officer training.

Bottom line it makes no sense for either biotic!Shep or spacer!Shep to go the enlisted route rather than going straight into military academy at Arcturus.

Doubt there will ever be a final answer though so I suspect it boils down to individual headcanon.

Yeah, except Shepard did go Enlisted.

[Han Shot First]

Shepard started off as an enlisted man. That is canon. He 'enlisted' when he was 18. Officers don't enlist, they are commissioned. That, and at 18 years old he would have been too young to be an officer.

Shepard being prior-enlisted just makes him more of an interesting character in my book. Some of the best officers I met while I was in the Marines were Mustangs. (prior enlisted)

Modifié par Han Shot First, 12 février 2012 - 10:20 .

[paul165]

FeralEwok wrote...

GIJooTheWarHero wrote...

You're talking about devaluing the rank structure in a game where you can jump from private to lieutenant commander in 10 years?

It's not common but again like I have been saying:

It happens.

Take any of the three backgrounds for Shepard. He enlists at 18. He goes to basic where he gets a boot up his ass on Titan for about 9 weeks. Seeing as how he has no higher education he is an enlisted marine. Say he does pretty good and manages to graduate basic and his technical school (if he had one) at the top of his class. So his CO promotes him once. He is then sent to his duty station to now serve. He does a good job blah blah blah and in a year he is promoted again along with most other privates that went in the same time he did. So now he is around a 3rd rank (dont know the Alliance one...probably should look it up.) So I am just going to say he is a private first class. Now if he works really hard and pleases the brass he can make Corporal in about say under 36 months. He does. Now he has a job as a team lead and boy is he working his butt off...he is wanting those stripes. Sure enough he makes it past the 3 year marker and is now eligable for Sergeant.

He does his warrior leader courses, yells at a few privates and before you know it BAM! He's ready for Sergeant. They promote him and he is now a squad leader. He's worked hard and says "You know what? I collected all this leave so I am going to take some time off for awhile. I hear Elysiam is nice this time of year." He goes and what do you know? Batarian raiders come and start shooting the place up. Shepard being the bad ass he is holds them off by organising an improvised defense all while off-duty.

Word spreads around. News stories want to interview him, and his commanding officer recommends him for the star of tera. Upon recieving the star of Tera they say "You know what Shepard? You're a pretty BMF. Let's send you to officer training." He goes and easy peasy he comes out a LT. in just over 4 years of Service. Now because he is such a BMF he decides to drop a packet for Spec Ops training. He goes and sure enough once again he passes top of his class and is off doing crazy stuff for the Alliance. Kicking ass and taking names. It's only a matter of time inside spec ops he recieves the rank of Commander. 5 more years to be exact.

Then ME1 happens.

Dammit where's the like button?

[FeralEwok]

Prom001 wrote...

@FeralEwok

Cant an enlisted soldier decided to enroll in an officer academy?

Seeing as how he has no higher education.

evening school?

The soldier would have to work on his or her education during off duty hours...So evening school, online classes...just as long as they recieve a 4 year degree. They then can drop a packett for officer training. They might not get it. Either there isn't a demand for it, there CO turns it down, (list a number of whatever reasons)

I don't think Shepard has an advanced education. I'm basing his (and ash) transition from enlisted to officer on battlefield commisions. If they are recommended by their superior and then approved by a higher authority they can skip all those requirements.

Modifié par FeralEwok, 12 février 2012 - 10:23 .

[bennyjammin79]

Sorry but when I read "Nip Picking" I pictured some sort of weird asian tree farm. Then I laughed hysterically.

[ElitePinecone]

paul165 wrote...

Bottom line it makes no sense for either biotic!Shep or spacer!Shep to go the enlisted route rather than going straight into military academy at Arcturus.

Doubt there will ever be a final answer though so I suspect it boils down to individual headcanon.

Yeah, this. No sense at all. Particularly with spacerShep's parents both being officers, having lived among the military for eighteen years, knowing heaps about the Alliance's methods...

I'm just assuming some terrible calamity meant officer school was full that year, or something.