370 réponses à ce sujet

[slimgrin]

AwesomeName wrote...

I absolutely adore that scene! Plus it does show how far the facial animations have come...

I can't agree. Using a kid, at least the way they used the kid, was a mistake. It's melodrama.

Modifié par slimgrin, 12 février 2012 - 07:03 .

[RyuGuitarFreak]

Dave of Canada wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Yeah you are not a snob or anything.  Let's see you do better writing you literary expert you.

Rather than focusing on cheap music and shoving the kid in our face five dozen times saying "feel saaad plz!!!", show the horror of the Reapers. Shepard viewing recordings of people's desperate fights against husks, buildings filled with countless people getting destroyed.

Killing one person with cheesy dialogue and music when Shepard is supposed to be a hardened badass only serves to bring about my laughter because it's a poor cheap attempt of getting sadness evoked from the player. The scene needs to be done well, which this forcing of the kid throughout the intro does not make it so.

It's like when you're watching a movie and then they suddenly kill a dog or something, everybody is going to fall in line and be sad or hate the person who killed the dog regardless of how well the scene was done. Just because it invoked the reaction the writer wanted from you doesn't mean it was done well, it just means they know how to manipulate cheap emotions.

That's just another way to do it. Bioware chose something more close and personal, which isn't bad, and on a roleplaying game where the focus is Shepard, closer and personal in my opinion is a better way to do it than random people being torn apart. That scene was made that way because, well Mesina2 already explained it. BW basically wanted to show that yeah, there are children in ME universe, a complaint they received lots of times, and they're not safe from the horrors of the reapers (war), which is a mistake that many game developers make the mistake of not showing it. It wasn't cheap, Shepard even interacted with him befor, it had a purpose. Now, if it was cheesy or not, well, it's more subjective.

Personally, I think BW's approach makes more sense then yours considering game design and narrative. But if Shepard was being trialed in Arcturus station and not on Earth that would be the way to do it.

[bboynexus]

There's not a great deal wrong with using melodrama so long as it serves some thematic significance, which it did in this case.

Modifié par bboynexus, 12 février 2012 - 07:07 .

[SirEtchwart]

I liked it for what it was.

I don't want too many moments like that, though. Overdo it and it feels cheap.

[bboynexus]

What do you all mean by 'cheap'? Are you sure you know exactly what you're saying or are most of you simply jumping on a bandwagon?

Modifié par bboynexus, 12 février 2012 - 07:14 .

[William Shakespeare]

i laughed during this scene. kid should of went with Shepard..........haha, ******

Modifié par William Shakespeare, 12 février 2012 - 07:16 .

[SirEtchwart]

bboynexus wrote...

What do you all mean by 'cheap'? Are you sure you know exactly what you're saying or are most of you simply jumping on a bandwagon?

What I was saying is that they could go the route of "LOOK AT ALL THE TRAGEDY ISN'T IT SO EDGY?", a la "No Russian". Shock for shock's sake. I liked the way they handled it in the demo; it was substantial, and even though it was easy enough to see coming, it was still something you felt. All I'm saying is that they have the potential to make a joke out of it.

[slimgrin]

AwesomeName wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

AwesomeName wrote...

I absolutely adore that scene! Plus it does show how far the facial animations have come...

I can't agree. Using a kid, at least the way they used the kid, was a mistake. It's melodrama.

It's melodrama in that they're focussing on the fact that it's happening - I don't see how that is innappropriate for a dramatic war story where no one is safe.   I'd rather have that than something that feels emotionally inert.

It feels out of place to some people. I think the music and 'everybody's dying' line makes it worse. It's a hallmark moment. Plus as others have said, my renegade shep wouldn't have stopped to help the kid in the first place - he's not a priority.  I understand this is all subjective but I really don't like the scene at all.

Iv'e watched the whole intro. I have to say ME2's intro had much more impact for me, even a bit of emotion as I was forced to part with Liara, and do it pretty damn ruthlessly.

Modifié par slimgrin, 12 février 2012 - 07:23 .

[twisty77]

Yeah it was most definitely a goosebump-inducing moment. Not anywhere near crying, but emotional just the same.

[bboynexus]

There is no 'your Shepard'. Not really. Shepard is a fully-fleshed character whose path and morality you simply influence. Whether he cares or not about a kid's death isn't dependent on you at all.

[FlashHand777]

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

FlashHand777 wrote...

It makes me laugh how people say they didn't care for the child dying because they "didn't know him". I don't know about you but when I read about a child dying or being murdered or maimed in the papers it still angers or saddens me, not knowing him personally should have nothing to do with empathy or a human reaction. This is fictional yes, but the point remains. There's being apathetic to something then there's trying to act "cool" or cold and "badass" for the sake of it.

You're starting from the assumption that the player processes that scene as a fictional child dying and not as the writers deciding it's time for an emotionally impacting scene to drive in the point that the Reapers ****ing Earth's **** up is a bad thing.

No I'm taking the point that some people are making, that it doesn't bother them because they "didn't know him" and looking at the strange logic of that conclusion. Surely just because you don't know someone doesn't mean it can't be affecting. I know what the scene was there for, to show that in war, no-one is safe et cetera. People have a right not to care, it just sounds a little, disconnected, even though it's fictional.

Modifié par FlashHand777, 12 février 2012 - 07:25 .

[bboynexus]

Didn't you know, FlashHand? It's precisely why nobody cares about tragic real world scenarios. 'They don't know the people affected'.

Modifié par bboynexus, 12 février 2012 - 07:28 .

[Brockololly]

Dave of Canada wrote...
Rather than focusing on cheap music and shoving the kid in our face five dozen times saying "feel saaad plz!!!", show the horror of the Reapers. Shepard viewing recordings of people's desperate fights against husks, buildings filled with countless people getting destroyed.

Killing one person with cheesy dialogue and music when Shepard is supposed to be a hardened badass only serves to bring about my laughter because it's a poor cheap attempt of getting sadness evoked from the player. The scene needs to be done well, which this forcing of the kid throughout the intro does not make it so.

It gets to the issue of BioWare trying to make Shepard more of their own character when scenes like this should involve more input from the player as to how Shepard reacts.


Just off the top of my head, if we're going for cinematic equivalence, I'd think of Schindler's List and the scene with the girl in the red coat. Its clearly trying to pull at the viewer's heart strings but (in part cause its a movie, not  a interactive game) its about Schindler seeing not just the girl, but the viewer seeing all the other atrocities going on. It works as part of the overall movie since it takes its time showing the gradual deterioration of conditions. And then of course, Schindler sees the girl dead amongst others much later on in the movie when she's only identified by her red coat.  It brings home how bad things became.

With the kid stuff in ME3, it would be the equivalent of Schindler racing down to save the girl only to have her run away and then see her killed 5 seconds later. Everything happens so fast that its hard to care. When BioWare forces all that preordained emotion onto Shepard all at once, it just comes across as silly, especially depending on what sort of a Shepard you're trying to play as.

Modifié par Brockololly, 12 février 2012 - 07:32 .

[StephanieBengal]

It's all about perception, opinion, out, hell people's personality and emotional approaches.

The scene at the end doesn't work as well if it weren't for the music. I admit I got a little sad, but while it was upsetting to see the kid get killed.

I also was thinking about the other "nameless" faces in the shuttle that just died and seeing the destruction of the city as you basically have to leave Earth while people are dying left and right.

It's a pretty helpless feeling and it's rough to see. But again, I give a lot of credit to the music, it moved me.

It may not move others and that's fine.

[bboynexus]

It isn't purely about you feeling sympathy for the kid. It's about establishing, on very visceral terms, the horror of the Reaper threat and the necessity with which you and your team must find a way to end it. It's hard to connect with dozens of faceless individuals being vaporized. The mind can't anthropomorhize that. It can, however, with a specific child.

[DJStarstryker]

I liked the bit at the beginning with the kid playing with the ship. But starting from the vent, it was fairly obvious the kid was going to die at some point for the purpose of trying to be emotionally moving. It still worked out well enough to make you feel sad for the kid, but because I saw it coming, it was very far from making me cry.

Still say kid should've gotten out of the vent and come with me like I told him to. Probably would still be alive, even during fire fights. Because, you know, it's Commander Shepard. He/She can do anything.

[C9316]

It really didn't have an impact on me. I just felt the scene was added just to show people are being killed by the reapers, and I just feel emphasizing the kid was a bit over dramatic...

[AlphaDormante]

It may be a little cliché, but I honestly don't think the whole "kid dying" scene should be met with the level of vitrol it has been. Yeah, it's a bit silly. So what. If you're not going to feel bad for the kid, then ignore him. Feel bad for the defense committee, when hearing the fear in their voices and their death moments after. Feel bad for the hideously mutated husks, mere Frankenstein shells of what used to be real people. Feel bad for the dozens of other people in those shuttles besides the kid. Feel bad when you see that entire skyscraper collapse in the background, killing thousands of people in one fell, minor-background-event-swoop.

If the kid worked for you, fantastic. If it didn't, there's plenty of other ways for you to have your heartstrings pulled.

[The Minority]

I think the kid is just a part of Shepard's imagination. Everyone just disregarded the kid when they were being evacuated, and he just disappeared out of the vent without a sound.

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

FlashHand777 wrote...

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

FlashHand777 wrote...

It makes me laugh how people say they didn't care for the child dying because they "didn't know him". I don't know about you but when I read about a child dying or being murdered or maimed in the papers it still angers or saddens me, not knowing him personally should have nothing to do with empathy or a human reaction. This is fictional yes, but the point remains. There's being apathetic to something then there's trying to act "cool" or cold and "badass" for the sake of it.

You're starting from the assumption that the player processes that scene as a fictional child dying and not as the writers deciding it's time for an emotionally impacting scene to drive in the point that the Reapers ****ing Earth's **** up is a bad thing.

No I'm taking the point that some people are making, that it doesn't bother them because they "didn't know him" and looking at the strange logic of that conclusion. Surely just because you don't know someone doesn't mean it can't be affecting. I know what the scene was there for, to show that in war, no-one is safe et cetera. People have a right not to care, it just sounds a little, disconnected, even though it's fictional.

What they mean is that the character wasn't fully established, or they didn't feel that the character was fully established. For a character death to work in a story full of character deaths, that framework needs to be laid out. Up to this point, every Mass Effect player has massacred hundreds if not thousands of mercenaries, Cerebus terrorists, krogan, etc. Those characters presumably were adorable children at some point, have families/hopes/dreams, and so on. Yet we don't care about their deaths, because the game doesn't establish them as people. In other words, showing us a fictional person dying is not the same thing as making us care about that fictional person's death, because in a work of fiction like Mass Effect that has consistently encouraged emotional detachment from 99% of characters, we default to being detached.

Modifié par Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut, 12 février 2012 - 07:33 .

[Zjarcal]

Filament wrote...

I guess it could be called cheap because we automatically feel sympathy for a kid... 

I don't. :innocent:

[AxisEvolve]

The Minority wrote...

I think the kid is just a part of Shepard's imagination. Everyone just disregarded the kid when they were being evacuated, and he just disappeared out of the vent without a sound.

I considered this. But he died so what would have been the whole point of that?

[The Minority]

AxisEvolve wrote...

The Minority wrote...

I think the kid is just a part of Shepard's imagination. Everyone just disregarded the kid when they were being evacuated, and he just disappeared out of the vent without a sound.

I considered this. But he died so what would have been the whole point of that?

Maybe he'll come back later haunting Shepard saying stuff like, "You didn't save me."