2915 réponses à ce sujet

[S Seraff]

yeah.
I was expecting, "commander shepard we've bought you here to answer for the deaths of blah blah"
or even,
"shepard, we're in closing remarks for your trial, is there anything you'd like to add before we pass sentence?"
or EVEN
"dont forget shepard, 500000 batarians lost their lives - and the galaxy lost a relay - because of you, and we have yet to hear a valid defense for your actions. so dont whine about losing your ship."
...it's almost like bioware are too timid about referencing their DLC's.

[TheRevanchist]

S Seraff wrote...

yeah.
I was expecting, "commander shepard we've bought you here to answer for the deaths of blah blah"
or even,
"shepard, we're in closing remarks for your trial, is there anything you'd like to add before we pass sentence?"
or EVEN
"dont forget shepard, 500000 batarians lost their lives - and the galaxy lost a relay - because of you, and we have yet to hear a valid defense for your actions. so dont whine about losing your ship."
...it's almost like bioware are too timid about referencing their DLC's.

New people can't be confused when they play the end of a trilogy and ignore the first two parts for 5 years don't ya know...

[CaptainZaysh]

S Seraff wrote...

"dont forget shepard, 500000 batarians lost their lives - and the galaxy lost a relay - because of you, and we have yet to hear a valid defense for your actions. so dont whine about losing your ship."
 

Hahaha!  "As you know, Bob..."

You guys are literally agitating for bad writing.

[TheRevanchist]

TonyTitan wrote...

Isn't ME3 demo just starting out like ME2 did though? (Meaning you did NOT import a character over from ME1)

ME2 began where Shepard met Anderson on the Citadel....Udina was a Councilor, the original council was dead, and Shepard had no chance of becoming a Specter again. (Since Udina felt Shepard was to 'rogue'.....even after defeating Saren.)

So to me that is just kinda building some back story for someone who never played ME1....It was only after you imported your character over to ME2 where you saw your decisions REALLY play out in the game.

I'm 'guessing' that the ME3 demo is simply reflecting the same type of scenario as ME2 began with....Anderson was not a Council member, and Shepard was not a Specter. But once you import your ME2 character over to ME3, and if you had Anderson as Councilor, and Shepard was reinstated as a Specter, and the Original Council survived the attack on the Citadel, THEN some dialogue might take place addressing those things. (I hope so anyways)

As for the lack of the trial? Disappointing. I was looking forward to it. Hackett just made a HUGE deal out of the whole thing with his debrief after 'Arrival'. I can understand BioWare's decision not to include it, or possibly even them not understanding why we'd like to have it.......but hopefully after all of this discussion about it, maybe they could create a Video of it or something. Maybe have one video of all paragon responses, one all renegade, and maybe one that runs neutral....then simply have it as something we could watch later??? Maybe on a monitor in the Captain's quarters. IDK...Just tossing out suggestions.

But not showing a trial at all, kinda defeats the whole ending of Arrival. I'm certain the Batarian's were not simply going to let everything 'slide'....

Inb4 "Batarians are all dead so trial irrelevent"...

But srsly...Take Garrus's advice...always expect the worst...theres a chance you'll be pleasently surprised. Thats the main reason I'm so mad about this...they went out of their way to let us know "Arrival is canon...it happens even if you dont play it yourself." Now they just brush it off with a single sentence...thats the grand consequence. Not to mention a lack of any consequence for Shepard working with Cerberus or...really anything hes done up to this point. He "knows about Reapers" which is apparently a "do w/e I want and get away with it badge" as far as the Brass is concerned...even though they have been like the Council regarding the Reapers all this time.

[AkiKishi]

Well I read upto page 40

Broken promises from Bioware ? After DA2 not suprised.
People still seem to be ok with buying the game though and as long as that continues expect to get shafted.

That said here is my opening to ME3. I have no clue who Vega is so his lines are made up. It's not a detailed screenplay just the clip notes.Since I can't do a wheel I'm doing it number list form.

Open

Commander Shepard has been brought to earth to stand trial for .......
Incarcerated and stripped of rank..... <recap events of conviction>

Trial opens

Commander you stand accussed........what do you have to say for yourself?

1 I stand by my record ! <end trial>
2. I will answer your accusations <follow with important events of ME2/Arrival with interactive answers>

Cut to waiting

Vega: This waiting is killing me let's go shoot something.

1. Sure I got a little rusty in prison <go to tutorial>
2. I'm good still as sharp as ever <go back to verdict>

Panel : Shepard after deliberation and in view of your actions...... Klaxons sound a guard rushes in and tells everyone to get to the shelters.

Shepard pushes through into the control room where you get the same scene as in the intro with the Reapers coming in.

I think that takes care of the comments from both sides. Skip the trial and the tutorial and you are in action in under 5 minutes. Want your day in court ? You can have that too. As to the verdict we will never know because everything gets blown up..

I put the tutorial there because I found "mincing with Anderson" downright insulting. In ME2 having been dead for 2 years it was forgivable, but being treated like a rookie here ? No way.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 21 février 2012 - 02:38 .

[Dragoonlordz]

kylecouch wrote...

S Seraff wrote...

yeah.
I was expecting, "commander shepard we've bought you here to answer for the deaths of blah blah"
or even,
"shepard, we're in closing remarks for your trial, is there anything you'd like to add before we pass sentence?"
or EVEN
"dont forget shepard, 500000 batarians lost their lives - and the galaxy lost a relay - because of you, and we have yet to hear a valid defense for your actions. so dont whine about losing your ship."
...it's almost like bioware are too timid about referencing their DLC's.

New people can't be confused when they play the end of a trilogy and ignore the first two parts for 5 years don't ya know...

It's quite odd in one way, you would think referencing their DLC would be a good thing for them. People would go what is he or she talking about? Then go and buy it, however maybe this confusion and lack of both exposition and interaction present in the demonstration is a different variation of the 'confuse them so buy follow up DLC to fill in blanks' theory.

But as said earlier my issue with it far extends beyond the boundries of just background recap and trial alone. Small part of bigger problem from my perspective as mentioned on page before this one. This trial aspect, disappointed me in this part of the game quite a bit and was truly a vast wasted opportunity in my opinion. Detrimental to my enjoyment of the game even if the rest of the game is amazing (which may or may not be so) this one part of the game will remain a disappointment from everything have seen and heard regardless of mode play or imports.

Overall it's the third biggest issue with the game for me so far (out of 5 in total) given only played demonstration but the top one (auto dialogue and lack of choices) is vastly much bigger concern and worry for me and I talk about it more in my review. Someone also did quick tally of comparrison which further added to this concern (which was already my biggest one). I did not need those numbers to know I dislike what they have done in that regard as I already had major issues with it from playing the demonstration and seeing for myself how heavy handed Shepard's dialogue freedom was restricted and replaced by canon replies. It merely added fuel to the fire.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 21 février 2012 - 02:50 .

[CaptainZaysh]

BobSmith101 wrote...

I think that takes care of the comments from both sides. Skip the trial and the tutorial and you are in action in under 5 minutes. Want your day in court ? You can have that too. As to the verdict we will never know because everything gets blown up..

So you agree that any verdict delivered would be irrelevant?  That's exactly why the trial scene is a bad idea - it would be pointless and gratuitous.  Good writers try and cut pointless, gratuitous scenes, especially right at the start of the story where it's crucial to get everybody involved with the plot.

[AkiKishi]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

I think that takes care of the comments from both sides. Skip the trial and the tutorial and you are in action in under 5 minutes. Want your day in court ? You can have that too. As to the verdict we will never know because everything gets blown up..

So you agree that any verdict delivered would be irrelevant?  That's exactly why the trial scene is a bad idea - it would be pointless and gratuitous.  Good writers try and cut pointless, gratuitous scenes, especially right at the start of the story where it's crucial to get everybody involved with the plot.

I don't know whether you are roleplayer or not. But it's not about the verdict and it never was. It's not like Shepard could be executed or it would be a very short game.
The point of the trial is to give the player his day in court. In ME2 you were forced into the arms of Cerberus some went willingly some not so much. Arrival did the same thing, this is Shepards chance to speak out and defend his actions. Rather than the player just being reduced to spectator status.

How Shepard handles the trial should have consequences. Remember the reporter in ME ? And those should follow through the game.

Am I suprised that BIoware went for an easy option ? After DA2 not at all. But that's why they are not getting my money for ME3. Blockbuster can have my money instead.

[Dragoonlordz]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

I think that takes care of the comments from both sides. Skip the trial and the tutorial and you are in action in under 5 minutes. Want your day in court ? You can have that too. As to the verdict we will never know because everything gets blown up..

So you agree that any verdict delivered would be irrelevant?  That's exactly why the trial scene is a bad idea - it would be pointless and gratuitous.  Good writers try and cut pointless, gratuitous scenes, especially right at the start of the story where it's crucial to get everybody involved with the plot.

Difference between Bioware making a movie or a game. A game is supposed to be played and interacted with and thats where the enjoyment comes from, as a roleplaying game even more so and especially one that is character driven by choices and dialogue while a movie removes all that pointless interaction and just tells you a story.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 21 février 2012 - 03:26 .

[DTKT]

kylecouch wrote...

S Seraff wrote...

yeah.
I was expecting, "commander shepard we've bought you here to answer for the deaths of blah blah"
or even,
"shepard, we're in closing remarks for your trial, is there anything you'd like to add before we pass sentence?"
or EVEN
"dont forget shepard, 500000 batarians lost their lives - and the galaxy lost a relay - because of you, and we have yet to hear a valid defense for your actions. so dont whine about losing your ship."
...it's almost like bioware are too timid about referencing their DLC's.

New people can't be confused when they play the end of a trilogy and ignore the first two parts for 5 years don't ya know...

A 1-2 min intro would have been a great starting point. Even for players who are new to the franchise.

[CaptainZaysh]

BobSmith101 wrote...

The point of the trial is to give the player his day in court. In ME2 you were forced into the arms of Cerberus some went willingly some not so much. Arrival did the same thing, this is Shepards chance to speak out and defend his actions. Rather than the player just being reduced to spectator status.

Firstly, he should be doing that through the whole story, not in some enormously clunky lump of expository monologue right at the start.

Secondly, how many dialogue options d'you think they'd need to write and record in order to satisfy every individual player's varying justifications for their decisions?  Discussions about (for instance) the rachni decision routinely run to hundreds of pages on these forums.  Can you imagine the nerd rage here if you had to pick your position from one of three sound bites?

[Dragoonlordz]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

The point of the trial is to give the player his day in court. In ME2 you were forced into the arms of Cerberus some went willingly some not so much. Arrival did the same thing, this is Shepards chance to speak out and defend his actions. Rather than the player just being reduced to spectator status.

Firstly, he should be doing that through the whole story, not in some enormously clunky lump of expository monologue right at the start.

Secondly, how many dialogue options d'you think they'd need to write and record in order to satisfy every individual player's varying justifications for their decisions?  Discussions about (for instance) the rachni decision routinely run to hundreds of pages on these forums.  Can you imagine the nerd rage here if you had to pick your position from one of three sound bites?

One is better than zero and three is even better. 

The zero we got is worse than the three you talk about.

I'll put it this way, even if on par with ME1 and ME2 it would of been better.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 21 février 2012 - 03:35 .

[AkiKishi]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

The point of the trial is to give the player his day in court. In ME2 you were forced into the arms of Cerberus some went willingly some not so much. Arrival did the same thing, this is Shepards chance to speak out and defend his actions. Rather than the player just being reduced to spectator status.

Firstly, he should be doing that through the whole story, not in some enormously clunky lump of expository monologue right at the start.

Secondly, how many dialogue options d'you think they'd need to write and record in order to satisfy every individual player's varying justifications for their decisions?  Discussions about (for instance) the rachni decision routinely run to hundreds of pages on these forums.  Can you imagine the nerd rage here if you had to pick your position from one of three sound bites?

It's optional. Don't want to sit through a trial then don't.

You mean like the nerd rage in not having a trial at all ? Considering they sold arrival based on the concept I'd say they have gotten off lightly so far.

[AkiKishi]

DTKT wrote...

A 1-2 min intro would have been a great starting point. Even for players who are new to the franchise.

Well an explanation in place of that completely wrong "Every 50.000 years the Reapers cleanse the Galaxy of all Organic life" stuff.

[CaptainZaysh]

BobSmith101 wrote...

It's optional. Don't want to sit through a trial then don't.

Optional = gratuitous.  Gratuitous scenes are generally considered to be bad writing.  I guess that's really all I've got to say about it.  If you want to moan that the writing wasn't s**t enough for your liking nobody can stop you.

[AkiKishi]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

It's optional. Don't want to sit through a trial then don't.

Optional = gratuitous.  Gratuitous scenes are generally considered to be bad writing.  I guess that's really all I've got to say about it.  If you want to moan that the writing wasn't s**t enough for your liking nobody can stop you.

It's only optional for people who have ADD and just can't wait to shoot stuff. Anyone who was actually invested in the character would probably want even more than I proposed.

I want to be shooting stuff for a purpose not just for the sake of it.

[CaptainZaysh]

BobSmith101 wrote...

It's only optional for people who have ADD and just can't wait to shoot stuff. Anyone who was actually invested in the character would probably want even more than I proposed.

I want to be shooting stuff for a purpose not just for the sake of it.

No, you don't.  You actively want gratuitous conflict that's utterly unrelated to the main plot.

[Dragoonlordz]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

It's only optional for people who have ADD and just can't wait to shoot stuff. Anyone who was actually invested in the character would probably want even more than I proposed.

I want to be shooting stuff for a purpose not just for the sake of it.

No, you don't.  You actively want gratuitous conflict that's utterly unrelated to the main plot.

Half the content and cutscenes probably in the game as well as such things like LI's, amount of squad mates, even being able to walk around on the ship instead of just being told you have one or having a selection of weapons is unrelated to the main plot as won't "need" those all to kill Repears. Does not mean should cut it all out, would make for very short "movie" as opposed to game.You also do not need a space hampster or most of dialogue, it's all about creating more enjoyment. If they skipped all the stuff the main plot does not "need" then half people on here would not have bought the game.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 21 février 2012 - 06:14 .

[AkiKishi]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

It's only optional for people who have ADD and just can't wait to shoot stuff. Anyone who was actually invested in the character would probably want even more than I proposed.

I want to be shooting stuff for a purpose not just for the sake of it.

No, you don't.  You actively want gratuitous conflict that's utterly unrelated to the main plot.

Shepard is the "plot" it's the one thing that links all the games together.Being put on trial, being cross examined and maybe thinking "perhaps that was not the best choice" that sort of player/character bond is what RPGs are all about not headshots from 500 meters.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 21 février 2012 - 04:01 .

[The Executioner]

A trial would probably take up to much space they have Multiplayer eating up space already.

[tmp7704]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

So you agree that any verdict delivered would be irrelevant?  That's exactly why the trial scene is a bad idea - it would be pointless and gratuitous.  Good writers try and cut pointless, gratuitous scenes, especially right at the start of the story where it's crucial to get everybody involved with the plot.

The trial could serve as very effective device to ease new player into the whole setup of what the Reapers are, what is expected of them, who Shepard is and why he/she is in his/her current situation.

The outcome of the trial would be pointless, yes. But that's why you can have that particular eliminated by say, the Reapers actually attacking just like they happen to in the opening, while the trial still lasts.

It's the difference between cutting extra bits vs axing the entire premise like you suggest, which is more akin to throwing out the baby with the bathwater. And yes, i'd expect the good writers to be able to spot this difference.

[Skyblade012]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

It's optional. Don't want to sit through a trial then don't.

Optional = gratuitous.  Gratuitous scenes are generally considered to be bad writing.  I guess that's really all I've got to say about it.  If you want to moan that the writing wasn't s**t enough for your liking nobody can stop you.

Gratuitous:  Being without apparent reason, cause, or justification

Optional:  Left to one's choice. Not required or mandatory

Yeah, sorry, those don't mean the same thing at all.  There are plenty of reasons and justifications for the trial.  And, BTW, 95% of the content in these games is unrelated to the main plot.

Modifié par Skyblade012, 21 février 2012 - 06:34 .

[Legendaryred]

It's like Bioware thinks new players are completely stupid, stupid enough to not go on the internet and google the ME2 and 1 story.

[Skyblade012]

Legendaryred wrote...

It's like Bioware thinks new players are completely stupid, stupid enough to not go on the internet and google the ME2 and 1 story.

Not to mention, it is really going to hamper them in the future.

I mean, there is a huge opportunity to milk the cash cow by releasing a trilogy edition with all three games tied together, but no plot coherency from one game to the next is really going to hurt that.

[movieguyabw]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

I think that takes care of the comments from both sides. Skip the trial and the tutorial and you are in action in under 5 minutes. Want your day in court ? You can have that too. As to the verdict we will never know because everything gets blown up..

So you agree that any verdict delivered would be irrelevant?  That's exactly why the trial scene is a bad idea - it would be pointless and gratuitous.  Good writers try and cut pointless, gratuitous scenes, especially right at the start of the story where it's crucial to get everybody involved with the plot.

As a film student, I have to disagree with the idea that a trial would have no significance to the story.  It's essential in establishing Shepard's character at the start of this game.  There was a few month lapse between Mass Effect 2, and this game, and we need a moment to establish where Shepard is coming from - especially since this is beginning the Third Act in a 3 act structure.  Yes, the verdict is pointless, but the trial was never about the verdict.  It was about us defining Shepard at the start of the game. 

The second purpose it'd serve would be to convince the people who have doubted the Reapers existence, to believe us now.  If they are convinced off screen, then it confuses us, and messes with our suspension of disbelief, and raises a lot of questions.  If they know, then who else knows?  How did they find out?  If they just found out, what evidence was so influential that they are now terrified?  If they've known for a while, why the hell haven't we (the players) been told this in-game?  If you really want the Human Alliance to suddenly believe you, either present them hard evidence in-game, or have them not believe you until the Reapers knock down your door.

As the demo stands, the intro is too jarring.

As for pacing, new acts tend to have a lul at the beginning, anyway.  Generally it's done to ease the audience into the next act.  Sure, it doesn't always happen immediately, but the perfect oppurtunity for one was right at the start before the Reapers arrive.  Hell, even without all the action that would've been one tense frigging scene, if after you have the voiceover at the beginning, Shepard is forced to go through the whole rigamarol of a trial.  The player knows that the Reapers are on their way.  Anderson could inform Shepard, or simply hint at it - giving the trial the weight and significance it needs.  The trial no longer is about Shepard blowing up a relay.  It's about convincing the Alliance of the Reaper threat, before it's too late.  And from a roleplaying standpoint, this is the player's chance to show what kind of character Shepard is at the onset of the game.  Does he believe they can win?  Does he tell the Admirals to follow him?  Does he say "screw you, I'm taking my ship back by foce.  We don't have time for a trial"?  Ultimately though, the Reapers would arrive - proving their existence to a skeptical board of Admirals - and forcing humanity to face a threat they were not prepared for, because they didn't listen to Shepard.