2915 réponses à ce sujet

[TheRealJayDee]

Thanks to everyone who explained why the trial would have been a good thing, I couldn't agree more! The way the beginning is handled now is just not what the final part of the Mass Effect trilogy deserves.

Awww, in my perfect little gaming world the trial would be there and feature cameos from Edward James Olmos and Patrick Stewart...

[phimseto]

Between this thread and the demo feedback thread, I think it's two separate issues with one underlying cause: many people (most?) feel that unless the real intro to the game is much more substantial, it is way, way too short.

- No sense of dread or build up to Reaper arrival. They're just there. That's bothered everyone I know who has played the demo. The pacing and the drama of the moment felt off - and that there needed to be a lot more to the sequence before their arrival. I feel the same way.

- No grounding of the plot in the here and now. Returning players will be confused as all hell as to why their Council Member Anderson is suddenly back in an Alliance uniform or why their Shepard is in jail or if they played Arrival, where the hell was the trial that brought them back to earth in the first place. This is the biggest sin of all. Why should BW expect players to reasonably enjoy the drama or be emotionally engaged if they feel put through the paces while wondering what the hell is even going on to begin with?

The best quote I heard was from a friend who said,

"Like George Lucas before them, I feel like Bioware is retconning returning fans out of existence."

[Dragoonlordz]

Imperium Alpha wrote...

phimseto wrote...
 This is the biggest sin of all. Why should BW expect players to reasonably enjoy the drama or be emotionally engaged if they feel put through the paces while wondering what the hell is even going on to begin with?

You played the first two game right? Then... why the hell are you crying about that. You know what happen, you know what the reapers can do. Why do you care about "future potential customer"? 

I care about my enjoyment of the game and I have played both previous titles too, the way they handled it decreased my enjoyment of that part of the game in a very big way. Others however are explaining the negative effect on new players to cover both sides. If you enjoyed it and saw nothing wrong with the way they did it then great for you, I'm glad. This is not the case for huge amount of other people. They all may have different reasons but they all feel the same. It was disappointing, a wasted opportunity and detrimental to their enjoyment of the game because of that part of it.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 21 février 2012 - 04:37 .

[Nathan Redgrave]

TheRealJayDee wrote...

Thanks to everyone who explained why the trial would have been a good thing, I couldn't agree more! The way the beginning is handled now is just not what the final part of the Mass Effect trilogy deserves.

I'd also like to register my agreement with the trial discussion... that said, with Shepard's track record when it comes to making his Reaper case, it's probably lucky we didn't have to endure one. (ZING!)

[Ananka]

Legendaryred wrote...

It's like Bioware thinks new players are completely stupid, stupid enough to not go on the internet and google the ME2 and 1 story.

I don't think you should have to go back and google for what happened in previous games. I think ME3 should be enough of a stand-alone game to provide you with these details, which would be excellent to do in the trial. You should not have to read the comics or the BSN forums to understand the plot of the game as a new player. Or to have to read the comics and the forums to bridge the gap between ME2 and ME3, if you're an old player.

The way the demo is now though it is not good for anybody. It is not good for new players because they are not given an introduction to the story line and some of the basic characters of the series, and it is not good for old players because they are not given any explanation for the time that passed between standing in the Normandy (after Arrival or after the SM) and finding themselves on Earth with their ship impounded.

In a good trial, new players would learn some of the background while old players would get an answer about what has happened. It would not be difficult to write the trial in such a way. The committee calling Anderson to the stand, explaining that he used to be Shep's superior, and then having him state his support for Shep would be enough to introduce him to new players. Calling Vega to the stand and having him explain his relationship to Shep and his background with him/her, and have him make a statement whether Shep came willingly or not would explain who Vega is and why he's in the game to begin with. And so on.

THEN the Reapers can attack, if a verdict is not necessary. In fact, most of the current intro up until the hearing and after the Reaper attack could still be used in the game, if the hearing is just rewritten.
And of course, there could be the option to skip through the entire trial and jump right to the Reaper attack if you just want to get on to the shooting.

Modifié par Annaka, 21 février 2012 - 05:25 .

[TheRevanchist]

Skyblade012 wrote...

Legendaryred wrote...

It's like Bioware thinks new players are completely stupid, stupid enough to not go on the internet and google the ME2 and 1 story.

Not to mention, it is really going to hamper them in the future.

I mean, there is a huge opportunity to milk the cash cow by releasing a trilogy edition with all three games tied together, but no plot coherency from one game to the next is really going to hurt that.

Mass Effect: The Shepard Trilogy.

that would TOTALY make money...

[TheRevanchist]

But honestely guys and gals...given the kind of attitude we've seen from bioware of late...chances are they don't give a rats **** about our complaints about this. I think everyone who made their voices known for the Deception fiasco probably realize the only reason they answered or said they would do something is probably because we managed to actually get media sites to report on it. It ACTUALLY made them look bad.

[Darth Asriel]

I couldn't agree more with the vast majority of you. As it stands now there is zero emotional investment, tension build up, or emotional payoff in the opening as it is. I hope the rest of the game is better than the shallow opening.

[TheRevanchist]

That is our only becon of hope at this point Asriel...but honestly ever since DA2 Bioware has deff taken a noticable slip in their quality. I will admit I think TOR is actually far better then I woulda ever thought possible, but I digress.

[DJBare]

CaptainZaysh wrote...
Secondly, how many dialogue options d'you think they'd need to write and record in order to satisfy every individual player's varying justifications for their decisions?

It had already been done before ending up on the cutting room floor, it's what they showed in a private press conference, so that argument is moot.

[Skyblade012]

kylecouch wrote...

That is our only becon of hope at this point Asriel...but honestly ever since DA2 Bioware has deff taken a noticable slip in their quality. I will admit I think TOR is actually far better then I woulda ever thought possible, but I digress.

TOR was in production for quite a long time before the DA2 fiasco though.  So it probably wasn't affected too much by the quality drop.

[Darth Asriel]

@kylecouch- I tried to look at DA2 as an aberration. Everyone missteps. People miss wide open jump shots and 6" gimmie putts. But the writing is starting to be on the wall with this one, and I'm not sure I like what I'm reading.

[TheRevanchist]

Darth Asriel wrote...

@kylecouch- I tried to look at DA2 as an aberration. Everyone missteps. People miss wide open jump shots and 6" gimmie putts. But the writing is starting to be on the wall with this one, and I'm not sure I like what I'm reading.

Indeed...everyone screws up...no one can make awsome games -every- time. But honestly...their overall attitude towards us (even fans who don't hate for the sake of hating) and what we have seen from them since Da2 came out...it's starting to show a bit. depending how this game goes, I will eaither stop pre-ordering their products, or stop buying them altogeather. Like Woo loves to say to us...our only voice is our wallets...so...

[Iakus]

Even a Star Wars-like opening crawl:

Mass Effect Episode III:  Return of the Shepard

Commander Shepard has returned to Earth bearing information concerning the REAPERS, a synthetic life form that periodically wipes out all advanced organic life in the galaxy.  The warning is met by the SYSTEMS ALLIANCE with skepticism, as it was gained while Shepard was working with CERBERUS, a human terrorist organization, to foil servants of the REAPERS in the Terminus Systems.  Little does the Alliance know, however, that the REAPERS have already entered the galaxy.  the culling has begun, and Earth is their next target...

Modifié par iakus, 21 février 2012 - 07:06 .

[Heather Cline]

Xenosaga was a trilogy though it was planned to be a 6 game spread. Other than some game play fubars in Xenosaga 2 the actual story linked across all 3 games was solid and linked together quite well. With ME series. ME1 started strong. ME2 dropped the ball for story. ME3 I'm taking a wait and see approach. I've seen game trilogies done better than this.

Hell the Zelda series which has been out for so long and has multiple iterations has a better linking story than the ME series and that's saying something for a game that's been out for decades and still having new iterations of the game coming out year after year.

[Klijpope]

movieguyabw wrote...

As a film student, I have to disagree with the idea that a trial would have no significance to the story.  It's essential in establishing Shepard's character at the start of this game.  There was a few month lapse between Mass Effect 2, and this game, and we need a moment to establish where Shepard is coming from - especially since this is beginning the Third Act in a 3 act structure.  Yes, the verdict is pointless, but the trial was never about the verdict.  It was about us defining Shepard at the start of the game. 

The second purpose it'd serve would be to convince the people who have doubted the Reapers existence, to believe us now.  If they are convinced off screen, then it confuses us, and messes with our suspension of disbelief, and raises a lot of questions.  If they know, then who else knows?  How did they find out?  If they just found out, what evidence was so influential that they are now terrified?  If they've known for a while, why the hell haven't we (the players) been told this in-game?  If you really want the Human Alliance to suddenly believe you, either present them hard evidence in-game, or have them not believe you until the Reapers knock down your door.

As a teacher of film-making, I'd say to my student (ya know, hypothetical situation) that the trial sequence is really nice, but it's a bit weird right at the beginning, when you need to establish tone; while it's good for establishing character, you do this anyway a bit later on, and it doesn't lead anywhere, as the trial becomes moot as soon as the aliens invade. Wouldn't it be better to have this later on in the plot, when there actual stakes involved, like being able to win over these allies the protagonist is going to need, so this nice dialogue you've written actually has meaning and consequence to the story?

Not saying that this is the way it's going to go, but there is a clip of Shepard in the Council chamber in the Femshep trailer. Just an opinion, too. 

Modifié par Klijpope, 21 février 2012 - 07:11 .

[TheRevanchist]

Heather Cline wrote...

Xenosaga was a trilogy though it was planned to be a 6 game spread. Other than some game play fubars in Xenosaga 2 the actual story linked across all 3 games was solid and linked together quite well. With ME series. ME1 started strong. ME2 dropped the ball for story. ME3 I'm taking a wait and see approach. I've seen game trilogies done better than this.

Hell the Zelda series which has been out for so long and has multiple iterations has a better linking story than the ME series and that's saying something for a game that's been out for decades and still having new iterations of the game coming out year after year.

You mean those games that basiclly have the exact same story every single time?

But I don't think ME2 story was all that horrible...it definetly would have been a WHOLE lot better.

But after reading this guys interpritations I like to look at the ME2 story from that perspective...makes it so much better...

[Dragoonlordz]

Klijpope wrote...

movieguyabw wrote...

As a film student, I have to disagree with the idea that a trial would have no significance to the story.  It's essential in establishing Shepard's character at the start of this game.  There was a few month lapse between Mass Effect 2, and this game, and we need a moment to establish where Shepard is coming from - especially since this is beginning the Third Act in a 3 act structure.  Yes, the verdict is pointless, but the trial was never about the verdict.  It was about us defining Shepard at the start of the game. 

The second purpose it'd serve would be to convince the people who have doubted the Reapers existence, to believe us now.  If they are convinced off screen, then it confuses us, and messes with our suspension of disbelief, and raises a lot of questions.  If they know, then who else knows?  How did they find out?  If they just found out, what evidence was so influential that they are now terrified?  If they've known for a while, why the hell haven't we (the players) been told this in-game?  If you really want the Human Alliance to suddenly believe you, either present them hard evidence in-game, or have them not believe you until the Reapers knock down your door.

As a teacher of film-making, I'd say to my student (ya know, hypothetical situation) that the trial sequence is really nice, but it's a bit weird right at the beginning, when you need to establish tone; while it's good for establishing character, you do this anyway a bit later on, and it doesn't lead anywhere, as the trial becomes moot as soon as the aliens invade. Wouldn't it be better to have this later on in the plot, when there actual stakes involved, like being able to win over these allies the protagonist is going to need, so this nice dialogue you've written actually has meaning and consequence to the story?

Not saying that this is the way it's going to go, but there is a clip of Shepard in the Council chamber in the Femshep trailer. Just an opinion, too. 

Not interested in having it with the council at this stage, already had it with them twice in past games. What want is to have the confrontation with human Alliance superiors and admirals. Can't have that later if all killed at start. Vega does not in any way fill this gap, he is nothing more than another soldier. My Shepard is human and he was alliance military long before spectre or working for the council. The confrontation with his own people is needed as far as I am concered, the confrontation with other species has already happened on multiple occassions.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 21 février 2012 - 07:19 .

[Darth Asriel]

@kylecouch- you're right. I'm in the same boat. And I hate to say it, but my expectations for this game have been lowered. I have avoided all spoilers and the script so I hope they return to form. But the demo didn't inspire any, in fact it just confirmed some of my fears. I'm not a COD basher. I've enjoyed quite a few of them. But I don't want every game to be COD. I don't want ME in my COD anymore than I want COD in my ME. I hope BW remembers choice and story made ME a classic with fans, not gunplay and explosions.

[Nathan Redgrave]

Darth Asriel wrote...

I hope BW remembers choice and story made ME a classic with fans, not gunplay and explosions.

That'd be nice. I mean, gunplay and explosions come naturally to the Reaper invasion part of the trilogy anyway, it's not as if they have to actually work too hard to make it so; may as well put more effort into the story and choice aspects of it.

[DarthSliver]

Well to be honest with Chris Priestly saying we should try the game out with a ME3 Shepard tells me they took out the comic thing that would allow a new player to make choices in the first place. Also with Captain Kirrahe being in the PS3 demo, that tells me the only way as a PS3 player to get Captain Kirrahe is play a new Shepard made in ME3.

I actually hope the Trial wasnt there because they didnt want us to see the the comic thing that allows us to make the choices they said would be there for new Shepards made in ME3.

[Farbautisonn]

movieguyabw wrote...

idea that a trial would have no significance to the story.  It's essential in establishing Shepard's character at the start of this game.  There was a few month lapse between Mass Effect 2, and this game, and we need a moment to establish where Shepard is coming from - especially since this is beginning the Third Act in a 3 act structure.  Yes, the verdict is pointless, but the trial was never about the verdict.  It was about us defining Shepard at the start of the game. 

The second purpose it'd serve would be to convince the people who have doubted the Reapers existence, to believe us now.  If they are convinced off screen, then it confuses us, and messes with our suspension of disbelief, and raises a lot of questions.  If they know, then who else knows?  How did they find out?  If they just found out, what evidence was so influential that they are now terrified?  If they've known for a while, why the hell haven't we (the players) been told this in-game?  If you really want the Human Alliance to suddenly believe you, either present them hard evidence in-game, or have them not believe you until the Reapers knock down your door.

As the demo stands, the intro is too jarring.

As for pacing, new acts tend to have a lul at the beginning, anyway.  Generally it's done to ease the audience into the next act.  Sure, it doesn't always happen immediately, but the perfect oppurtunity for one was right at the start before the Reapers arrive.  Hell, even without all the action that would've been one tense frigging scene, if after you have the voiceover at the beginning, Shepard is forced to go through the whole rigamarol of a trial.  The player knows that the Reapers are on their way.  Anderson could inform Shepard, or simply hint at it - giving the trial the weight and significance it needs.  The trial no longer is about Shepard blowing up a relay.  It's about convincing the Alliance of the Reaper threat, before it's too late.  And from a roleplaying standpoint, this is the player's chance to show what kind of character Shepard is at the onset of the game.  Does he believe they can win?  Does he tell the Admirals to follow him?  Does he say "screw you, I'm taking my ship back by foce.  We don't have time for a trial"?  Ultimately though, the Reapers would arrive - proving their existence to a skeptical board of Admirals - and forcing humanity to face a threat they were not prepared for, because they didn't listen to Shepard.

-This. A thousand times this.

[Klijpope]

Dragoonlordz wrote...
 Can't have that later if all killed at start. 

They're not all dead though, are they? Hackett and other top brass would be at Arcturus Station. And there's Udina on the Council too. To be honest, I'd much rather shout at them than to a bunch of admirals I'd never met and who were all about to die before being able to do anything to/for me.

[Farbautisonn]

Imperium Alpha wrote...

You played the first two game right? Then... why the hell are you crying about that. You know what happen, you know what the reapers can do. Why do you care about "future potential customer"? 

-I, for one, care one hell of a lot because the plot gap in the narrative from "Yay we nuked/kept the Collector base" to "Awaiting the tribuneral for months and just on the day of the hearing we get hit hard by the very enemy you discarded" is disruptive.

Any player that has not played the DLCs or read the novels or visited the messageboard will go "wait... wat?". There was no plot gap between 1 and 2. The intro cleared that nicely. The plotgap between 2 and 3 is destructive if we are to go on what the Demo has shown.

Modifié par Farbautisonn, 21 février 2012 - 07:27 .