2915 réponses à ce sujet

[Darth Asriel]

@Nathan Redgrave- I'm not against explosions or guns. And yeah they will be important in an all out war against theReapers. But the story must come first. there are 100s of shooters on the market with mush better gunplay and explosion physics. ME is a one of a kind story. Not many of those in movies or games right now.

[CaptainZaysh]

DJBare wrote...
It had already been done before ending up on the cutting room floor, it's what they showed in a private press conference, so that argument is moot.

Nah.  The journalists just described being called before the Defence Committee as a "trial", that's all.  Chris Priestley himself called it such.  I don't believe they've written, recorded, animated and privately screened a courtroom scene they then decided just to ditch.

[TheRevanchist]

Farbautisonn wrote...

Imperium Alpha wrote...

You played the first two game right? Then... why the hell are you crying about that. You know what happen, you know what the reapers can do. Why do you care about "future potential customer"? 

-I, for one, care one hell of a lot because the plot gap in the narrative from "Yay we nuked/kept the Collector base" to "Awaiting the tribuneral for months and just on the day of the hearing we get hit hard by the very enemy you discarded" is disruptive.

Any player that has not played the DLCs or read the novels or visited the messageboard will go "wait... wat?". There was no plot gap between 1 and 2. The intro cleared that nicely. The plotgap between 2 and 3 is destructive if we are to go on what the Demo has shown.

Honestly...i've read ALL the extra material besides Deception and Invasion...trust me...it makes even LESS sense when you know everything...

[Dragoonlordz]

Darth Asriel wrote...

@kylecouch- you're right. I'm in the same boat. And I hate to say it, but my expectations for this game have been lowered. I have avoided all spoilers and the script so I hope they return to form. But the demo didn't inspire any, in fact it just confirmed some of my fears. I'm not a COD basher. I've enjoyed quite a few of them. But I don't want every game to be COD. I don't want ME in my COD anymore than I want COD in my ME. I hope BW remembers choice and story made ME a classic with fans, not gunplay and explosions.

I avoided all spoilers, all leaks and only made this one exception to try demo. The demonstration of what to expect in the game created two major concerns that did did not even exist prior to playing it. That of the auto responses where unlike past two games which allowed Shepard to set the tone of his replies at the beginning of the interactions they have in the third replaced that with for most part canon generic out of character (one spent past two titles shaping) automated responses. Secondly the serious lack of consequences to past actions and removal of the promised "more RPG elements" which were nowhere to be seen in the demonstration, this is partly because of the poor way the game starts even if import and from what is implied from Chris thread telling people to play non import first in order to see differences. 

These two concerns never existed prior to playing that demo but they sure as hell exist now and in a big way, especially the first one by a long shot.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 21 février 2012 - 07:39 .

[Heather Cline]

kyle no that i mean that they have things that actually link them together and have solid writing behind it. ME2 did not have that at all.

[Farbautisonn]

kylecouch wrote...

Honestly...i've read ALL the extra material besides Deception and Invasion...trust me...it makes even LESS sense when you know everything...

...that does not bode well...

[Dragoonlordz]

Klijpope wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...
 Can't have that later if all killed at start. 

They're not all dead though, are they? Hackett and other top brass would be at Arcturus Station. And there's Udina on the Council too. To be honest, I'd much rather shout at them than to a bunch of admirals I'd never met and who were all about to die before being able to do anything to/for me.

I have met and confronted Udina before and same with Hackett. They are known and their feelings on your past actions already shown in ME2. They cannot replace a confrontation with unknown element, a section of admirals and higher ups that hold you to account who you do not know, do not any knowledge of what will say or think about your actions.

[Farbautisonn]

Dragoonlordz wrote... from what is implied from Chris thread telling people to play non import first in order to see differences.

-Youre kidding right? Tell me youre kidding.

[Dragoonlordz]

Farbautisonn wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote... from what is implied from Chris thread telling people to play non import first in order to see differences.

-Youre kidding right? Tell me youre kidding.

About what? That he made thread saying play non import first to see difference or that for me implied what just mentioned?

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 21 février 2012 - 07:41 .

[CaptainZaysh]

iakus wrote...

Even a Star Wars-like opening crawl:

Mass Effect Episode III:  Return of the Shepard

Commander Shepard has returned to Earth(1) bearing information concerning the REAPERS(2), a synthetic life form that periodically wipes out all advanced organic life in the galaxy.(3)  The warning is met by the SYSTEMS ALLIANCE with skepticism,(4) as it was gained while Shepard was working with CERBERUS, a human terrorist organization, to foil servants of the REAPERS in the Terminus Systems.(5)  Little does the Alliance know, however, that the REAPERS have already entered the galaxy.  the culling has begun, and Earth is their next target...(6)

(1) established by Shepard being on Earth
(2) established in the opening dialogue with Anderson
(3) done in the actual opening crawl
(4) evident by how unprepared the brass actually is
(5) backstory, not needed by newcomers at this stage nor by existing fans who know it anyway; will likely be explored in the first confrontation w/Cerberus
(6) evident from the opening lines; made unnecessary by the actual arrival of the Reapers

"Show don't tell" is universally considered good advice for writers.  BioWare conveyed nearly all of the information in your crawl through actual dialogue and plot, which is way superior to making the audience read an essay before they can start enjoying the story.

[TheRevanchist]

Heather Cline wrote...

kyle no that i mean that they have things that actually link them together and have solid writing behind it. ME2 did not have that at all.

Yea in that sense thats rather true...but at the very least...Me2 didn't open like this demo does.

[TheRevanchist]

Farbautisonn wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

Honestly...i've read ALL the extra material besides Deception and Invasion...trust me...it makes even LESS sense when you know everything...

...that does not bode well...

For example...you know even -more- things that are totaly screwed up. Like Anderson holding ANY position in the Alliance Military at all. When in Retribution he resigns from any and all posts that he holds. Meaning he should just be some random Alliance Citizen... thats just one example...

[TheRevanchist]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

iakus wrote...

Even a Star Wars-like opening crawl:

Mass Effect Episode III:  Return of the Shepard

Commander Shepard has returned to Earth(1) bearing information concerning the REAPERS(2), a synthetic life form that periodically wipes out all advanced organic life in the galaxy.(3)  The warning is met by the SYSTEMS ALLIANCE with skepticism,(4) as it was gained while Shepard was working with CERBERUS, a human terrorist organization, to foil servants of the REAPERS in the Terminus Systems.(5)  Little does the Alliance know, however, that the REAPERS have already entered the galaxy.  the culling has begun, and Earth is their next target...(6)

(1) established by Shepard being on Earth
(2) established in the opening dialogue with Anderson
(3) done in the actual opening crawl
(4) evident by how unprepared the brass actually is
(5) backstory, not needed by newcomers at this stage nor by existing fans who know it anyway; will likely be explored in the first confrontation w/Cerberus
(6) evident from the opening lines; made unnecessary by the actual arrival of the Reapers

"Show don't tell" is universally considered good advice for writers.  BioWare conveyed nearly all of the information in your crawl through actual dialogue and plot, which is way superior to making the audience read an essay before they can start enjoying the story.

Cept we're not shown a damn thing...we're told we hasn't put on trial for reasons that don't make sense. We're told he has received some sort of punishment for reasons we know nothing about. We are left to assume and interpret what has happend ourselves...this is not the the right way to tell a story.

[TheRevanchist]

Farbautisonn wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote... from what is implied from Chris thread telling people to play non import first in order to see differences.

-Youre kidding right? Tell me youre kidding.

No...we're not...he actually told us to play a none import first so we can actually notice the difference.

[Farbautisonn]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

(1) established by Shepard being on Earth
(2) established in the opening dialogue with Anderson
(3) done in the actual opening crawl
(4) evident by how unprepared the brass actually is
(5) backstory, not needed by newcomers at this stage nor by existing fans who know it anyway; will likely be explored in the first confrontation w/Cerberus
(6) evident from the opening lines; made unnecessary by the actual arrival of the Reapers

"Show don't tell" is universally considered good advice for writers.  BioWare conveyed nearly all of the information in your crawl through actual dialogue and plot, which is way superior to making the audience read an essay before they can start enjoying the story.

-Riddle me this. Because I write for a living:

1) Why is Shepard back on earth? Last we saw him he was in a ship fixing it after the battle of the Collector base. (I dont think a majority of those that bought the ME2 downloaded "Arrival"). The jump from there to the tribuneral is a pretty far piece and there is no explenation why he is here, what he has done or why?
2) Information is rushed to reader/player. Seriousness and implications of that doesnt hit home to New players at all. "Ho hum... aliens attacking earth... festive and original". We do not get a sence of urgency, a sense of doom or anything.
3) Again, information is rushed to reader/player. Has no serious impact or stirs any kind of emotion.
4) Brass unprepared why? They have had months to interview you, read reports, study data, interrogate you. They act like children who have been told that the boogieman is comming. Not like high end officers in any mans army. Suspension of disbelief takes an even more serious hit here.
5) Granted. Can come later, but has to come in a context.
6) Earth attacked why? Did we do something? Dont they like people with bad breath? Are they here to wipe us out, capture us, or are they here for our resources? 


Bioware rushed the information to us like a person who has allready read the story. The skip essential parts in the plot narrative and leave their audience wondering what the hell is going on, and before we can really find out we are under attack. No time to digest information, no dialogue that exposes on why we are there, how we have a familiar relationship with Vega, who the guy is, why we should care about a kid we could potentially have seen playing in the garden for months, perhaps even played ball with or reminisced about our own childhood when viewing him... Everything is rushed to the point where even players that DID play the DLCs are going: Slow, the ****, down!

[CaptainZaysh]

kylecouch wrote...

Cept we're not shown a damn thing...we're told we hasn't put on trial for reasons that don't make sense. We're told he has received some sort of punishment for reasons we know nothing about. We are left to assume and interpret what has happend ourselves...this is not the the right way to tell a story.

Wrong.  Here's what we're shown.

(1) Shepard has been recalled to Earth.
(2) Shepard has been relieved of duty.
(3) Shepard is working with the Defence Committee.
(4) Shepard has not been severely punished thanks to Anderson and the Committee's leniency.
(5) Shepard is being chaperoned by a tough marine called James Vega, who respects Shepard, and knows the VS.
(6) The Reapers are here.

Etc, etc.  Note that none of these reveals needed clunky "as you know Bob" type expositions.  BioWare are just showing us the situation as it is and trusting their audience is intelligent enough to fill in the blanks without needing to be handheld all the way through it.  Reading this thread, I'm starting to think they overestimated us in general.  Seriously, upstream somebody was complaining he didn't know who had repainted the Normandy.

[Farbautisonn]

kylecouch wrote...

Cept we're not shown a damn thing...we're told we hasn't put on trial for reasons that don't make sense. We're told he has received some sort of punishment for reasons we know nothing about. We are left to assume and interpret what has happend ourselves...this is not the the right way to tell a story.

-Precisely.

And I am seriously afraid why someone would recommed playing the default, non-personalized, non imported toons first...

[Dragoonlordz]

kylecouch wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

iakus wrote...

Even a Star Wars-like opening crawl:

Mass Effect Episode III:  Return of the Shepard

Commander Shepard has returned to Earth(1) bearing information concerning the REAPERS(2), a synthetic life form that periodically wipes out all advanced organic life in the galaxy.(3)  The warning is met by the SYSTEMS ALLIANCE with skepticism,(4) as it was gained while Shepard was working with CERBERUS, a human terrorist organization, to foil servants of the REAPERS in the Terminus Systems.(5)  Little does the Alliance know, however, that the REAPERS have already entered the galaxy.  the culling has begun, and Earth is their next target...(6)

(1) established by Shepard being on Earth
(2) established in the opening dialogue with Anderson
(3) done in the actual opening crawl
(4) evident by how unprepared the brass actually is
(5) backstory, not needed by newcomers at this stage nor by existing fans who know it anyway; will likely be explored in the first confrontation w/Cerberus
(6) evident from the opening lines; made unnecessary by the actual arrival of the Reapers

"Show don't tell" is universally considered good advice for writers.  BioWare conveyed nearly all of the information in your crawl through actual dialogue and plot, which is way superior to making the audience read an essay before they can start enjoying the story.

Cept we're not shown a damn thing...we're told we hasn't put on trial for reasons that don't make sense. We're told he has received some sort of punishment for reasons we know nothing about. We are left to assume and interpret what has happend ourselves...this is not the the right way to tell a story.

The last thing I did in ME2 was stand on bridge of "my ship" after surviving collector base and having worked with Cerberus currently classed a terrorist organisation according to the Alliance, just destroyed 300k Batarians but still all my crew and myself on my ship. Somehow magically I am now currently on Earth without a dam clue how my Shepard who may have resisted returning or gone quietly (we don't know), get no idea about what Alliance admiarals think of both working for Cerberus, keeping a collector base, killing 300k Batarians. Andersons ****ty response is far beyond just inadequate after all that I have done, Vega's crappy opinion on what I may have done means nothing to me as to me he is nothing more than some random grunt soldier and I do not care what he thinks. The only admirals left alive that know about are ones already know and already know their feelings on my deeds.Their input is not the input I wish to see.

Also having to read and listen to a complete different media books and comics, movies is by no means adequate for furthing "My Shepards" story, in those it is their Shepard, the way he looks, the way he acts and the things he does and say area ll different to what mine would of done. I get no say in anything in those formats and they do not continue "my story". This would not be a problem is done through media of game or DLC because they can gently push a story in a direction while still allowing me to make the choices, stay in persona built up and create consequences that not only go along with my decisions but respond in a way that works towards reaching a point in time without breaking immersion or character.

If we go along with your "show not tell" approach then whats next step? Press start and the end sequence plays out for entire 3 minute movie? By your standards we can then "assume" that Shepard went to war killed the Reapers and won the day. In the format of game it is detrimental to not expand on what we may or may not know, experiencing it ourselves is what makes it a game and not a movie.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 21 février 2012 - 08:08 .

[Klijpope]

Farbautisonn wrote...
-Precisely.

And I am seriously afraid why someone would recommed playing the default, non-personalized, non imported toons first...

Curiosity frightens you?

[Heather Cline]

I want to see what the trial is about. In fact cutting it out is completely a dumb move. They have left out a huge chunk of information. It was directly stated in Arrival that you would be having to show up on earth for a tribunal. Then the ME creators said that you'd be able to play through the trial part. Now it's not even there. We don't know what happened, what is going on, in fact we have no clue as to why Shepard even is still on earth or why Shepard allowed the alliance to ground her/him if she/he is a spectre still. That's the entire point of letting us see/play the trial.

[AkiKishi]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

Cept we're not shown a damn thing...we're told we hasn't put on trial for reasons that don't make sense. We're told he has received some sort of punishment for reasons we know nothing about. We are left to assume and interpret what has happend ourselves...this is not the the right way to tell a story.

Wrong.  Here's what we're shown.

(1) Shepard has been recalled to Earth.
(2) Shepard has been relieved of duty.
(3) Shepard is working with the Defence Committee.
(4) Shepard has not been severely punished thanks to Anderson and the Committee's leniency.
(5) Shepard is being chaperoned by a tough marine called James Vega, who respects Shepard, and knows the VS.
(6) The Reapers are here.

Etc, etc.  Note that none of these reveals needed clunky "as you know Bob" type expositions.  BioWare are just showing us the situation as it is and trusting their audience is intelligent enough to fill in the blanks without needing to be handheld all the way through it.  Reading this thread, I'm starting to think they overestimated us in general.  Seriously, upstream somebody was complaining he didn't know who had repainted the Normandy.

They have shown us a bunch of scenes with no context. How you veiw those scenes depends on your knowledge outside of the game.
Since your such a fan of good writing. How is having a book that requires you read another book to make sense of it good writing?

[Farbautisonn]

Klijpope wrote...

Curiosity frightens you?

-In my experience people usually tell you to try the crap car first before settling into another car that is slighly less crap because the slightly less crap car will seem all the better once you have experienced the REALLY crap car.

Modifié par Farbautisonn, 21 février 2012 - 08:08 .

[Vulcan101]

So is the demo really how the game begins?

[AkiKishi]

Klijpope wrote...

Farbautisonn wrote...
-Precisely.

And I am seriously afraid why someone would recommed playing the default, non-personalized, non imported toons first...

Curiosity frightens you?

Well the implication is that if you don't do that then your won't notice how your chocies differ from the preset "action" path.

I find it hard to believe they could be that inconsequential, but then I found a lot of stuff about DA2 hard to believe till I saw it too.

[Dragoonlordz]

Klijpope wrote...

Farbautisonn wrote...
-Precisely.

And I am seriously afraid why someone would recommed playing the default, non-personalized, non imported toons first...

Curiosity frightens you?

To me it is saying "lower your expectations because the differences are much more minor than we led you to believe".

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 21 février 2012 - 08:12 .