2915 réponses à ce sujet

[Dragoonlordz]

Vulcan101 wrote...

So is the demo really how the game begins?

Yes, that's what we have been told.

[Farbautisonn]

Let me put it in the simplest possible story terms.

What Bioware has done with this Demo / intro is pretty much akin to dumping hansel and gretel in a cage in the pancake house without explaining why they are there, who the woman with the crooked nose is, why they were in the forrest in the first place and why this woman wants them to be fat. The kids break out and happy ever after when they find some breadcrumbs that someone apparently (oh year, Hansel did that) left and go home.

That adventure would NOT have made it into a brothers grimm collection.

[Nathan Redgrave]

kylecouch wrote...

Cept we're not shown a damn thing...we're told we hasn't put on trial for reasons that don't make sense. We're told he has received some sort of punishment for reasons we know nothing about. We are left to assume and interpret what has happend ourselves...this is not the the right way to tell a story.

Actually, to correct this, it seems there's an alternate bit of dialogue for players who've imported from an Arrival run, which doesn't actually state anything one way or another about a trial. Mind you, this dialogue is from the old leaked beta, but it's basically Anderson saying that oodles of Batarians died and that only Shep's knowledge of the Reaper threat kept them from court-martialing him and leaving him to "rot in the brig." The line we got in the demo appears to be a vague reference to the events of non-DLC ME2 (in which you're affiliated, however grudgingly, with a terrorist organization and where several missions you may embark on have you performing questionable tasks), as well as possibly the theft of the Normandy SR-1 at the end of ME1.

[CaptainZaysh]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Since your such a fan of good writing. How is having a book that requires you read another book to make sense of it good writing?

What is it about the intro to Mass Effect 3 that you think a new audience won't understand without referring to previous works?

When you played Gears of War did you scratch your head in utter puzzlement when Dom came to bust you out of jail?  Did your jaw gape open when this stranger started talking to you as though you had some kind of shared history that you personally had never experienced?  When you saw those first locusts shooting at you were you like, WHOA THERE!  WHY IS THAT ALIEN THING SHOOTING AT ME?  IT HAS NO REASON THAT HAS BEEN ESTABLISHED!

[Darth Asriel]

@kylecouch- the auto dialogue has me worried as well. And I agree what the call rog aspects is better than ME2, but not nearly as diverse and in depth as ME1. If my Shelard is now going to talk independent of me I will really be upset.

Please don't let this suck!

[Farbautisonn]

-Im sick and tired of hearing about GoW. GoW and ME are not the same product and do not have the same focus on Storytelling.I do not compare ME with PS: T because there is no comparison.

Modifié par Farbautisonn, 21 février 2012 - 08:16 .

[Nathan Redgrave]

There really isn't anything about the opening of ME1 that can really confuse newcomers; it's pretty simple, main character did questionable things in previous installments and as a result was grounded and had his ship impounded, and then the Reapers barrel in and blow stuff up. If anything, it's more of a head-scratcher for people who played the previous games, but only because they might be wondering how Shep got off as easily as he did and where this new guy called James came from. The gist of the opening is pretty simplistic, though, and the relevant lore is all in the Codex as per usual.

[AkiKishi]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Since your such a fan of good writing. How is having a book that requires you read another book to make sense of it good writing?

What is it about the intro to Mass Effect 3 that you think a new audience won't understand without referring to previous works?

When you played Gears of War did you scratch your head in utter puzzlement when Dom came to bust you out of jail?  Did your jaw gape open when this stranger started talking to you as though you had some kind of shared history that you personally had never experienced?  When you saw those first locusts shooting at you were you like, WHOA THERE!  WHY IS THAT ALIEN THING SHOOTING AT ME?  IT HAS NO REASON THAT HAS BEEN ESTABLISHED!

That's not what I said . I said your understanding will depend entirely on what other material you have read. I don't need some attempt at a dodge by throwing in a paragraph about GoW. I want an answer to my question from you the self proclaimed champion of good writing.

I even bolded the relevent bit for you this time.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 21 février 2012 - 08:18 .

[phimseto]

CaptainZaysh wrote...


What is it about the intro to Mass Effect 3 that you think a new audience won't understand without referring to previous works?

When you played Gears of War did you scratch your head in utter puzzlement when Dom came to bust you out of jail?  Did your jaw gape open when this stranger started talking to you as though you had some kind of shared history that you personally had never experienced?  When you saw those first locusts shooting at you were you like, WHOA THERE!  WHY IS THAT ALIEN THING SHOOTING AT ME?  IT HAS NO REASON THAT HAS BEEN ESTABLISHED!

Because if that's the attitude Bioware wants its fan base to take, then they and I can have a mutual parting of the ways.  This isn't game #1 of some new shooter series.  It's the critical final chapter of an RPG trilogy.  The plot needs to be grounded and consistent with what has come before.  

For anyone who chose Anderson as a council member, there's a big WTF going on at the start.  So is the fact that you are on earth and in jail when last you were a rogue Cerberus agent.  This is especially true if you missed the "Arrival" DLC.  The first person you talk with is a character you haven't met before in the previous two games.  

Yet it's all brushed aside, and no, "they'll deal with it later" doesn't cut it - not when you spend the first twenty minutes of the game getting major plot issues dealt with via throwaway dialogue that basically says, "But that's not important right now..."  

Especially when it turns out what's important is, "Never mind the bollocks, here's the pew pew!"

Modifié par phimseto, 21 février 2012 - 08:19 .

[Farbautisonn]

phimseto wrote... "Never mind the bollocks, here's the pew pew!"

-Sigworthy

[Darth Asriel]

@CaptainZaysh- this isn't GOW! The story in GOW was atrocious! Almost no character development in 3 games. ME is and should be (as an rpg) leagues ahead in the writing department. Story is a crucial element in a story driven character piece. In action set pieces that can be forgiven a little. ME is a story driven game, or at least it used to be. The narrative was the most important part. GOW was all about gunplay and dismemberment. The story was generic at it's best moments and elementary fanfiction at it's worst. The opening of ME3 does not reflect the narrative driven games ME players/fans have grown accustomed to.

[phimseto]

Farbautisonn wrote...

phimseto wrote... "Never mind the bollocks, here's the pew pew!"

-Sigworthy

Thank you.  I just wish I hadn't been inspired to write it. 

[CaptainZaysh]

BobSmith101 wrote...

That's not what I said . I said your understanding will depend entirely on what other material you have read. I don't need some attempt at a dodge by throwing in a paragraph about GoW. I want an answer to my question* from you the self proclaimed champion of good writing.

I even bolded the relevent bit for you this time.

* What's the question?

[CaptainZaysh]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

There really isn't anything about the opening of ME3 that can really confuse newcomers; it's pretty simple, main character did questionable things in previous installments and as a result was grounded and had his ship impounded, and then the Reapers barrel in and blow stuff up. If anything, it's more of a head-scratcher for people who played the previous games, but only because they might be wondering how Shep got off as easily as he did and where this new guy called James came from. The gist of the opening is pretty simplistic, though, and the relevant lore is all in the Codex as per usual.

Nothing's too simple for this lot, it seems.

Modifié par CaptainZaysh, 21 février 2012 - 08:24 .

[Jim-Panse]

Actually there is no trial. He was put in detention for what he done in the Arrival DLC, but the defense committee only wants to know if the things that blacked out entire systems and are beyond the Sol relay are really the Reapers, because he is the only one who has actually seen some of them in action as Anderson says in the demo intro.

[AkiKishi]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

That's not what I said . I said your understanding will depend entirely on what other material you have read. I don't need some attempt at a dodge by throwing in a paragraph about GoW. I want an answer to my question* from you the self proclaimed champion of good writing.

I even bolded the relevent bit for you this time.

* What's the question?

Well that explains a lot.

[Farbautisonn]

BobSmith101 wrote...
Well that explains a lot.

-Tragic but true.

[CaptainZaysh]

BobSmith101 wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

That's not what I said . I said your understanding will depend entirely on what other material you have read. I don't need some attempt at a dodge by throwing in a paragraph about GoW. I want an answer to my question* from you the self proclaimed champion of good writing.

I even bolded the relevent bit for you this time.

* What's the question?

Well that explains a lot.

Psst.  The bit you bolded isn't actually a question.

[DJBare]

Jim-Panse wrote...

Actually there is no trial. He was put in detention for what he done in the Arrival DLC, but the defense committee only wants to know if the things that blacked out entire systems and are beyond the Sol relay are really the Reapers, because he is the only one who has actually seen some of them in action as Anderson says in the demo intro.

Actually the trial was removed, let's try and keep that in mind during the discussion.

[Dragoonlordz]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

That's not what I said . I said your understanding will depend entirely on what other material you have read. I don't need some attempt at a dodge by throwing in a paragraph about GoW. I want an answer to my question* from you the self proclaimed champion of good writing.

I even bolded the relevent bit for you this time.

* What's the question?

Work it out from prior discussions. Seems to be what your praising and telling us to do with ME3.

[Farbautisonn]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Work it out from prior discussions. Seems to be what your praising and telling us to do with ME3.

[tmp7704]

Klijpope wrote...

As a teacher of film-making, I'd say to my student (ya know, hypothetical situation) that the trial sequence is really nice, but it's a bit weird right at the beginning, when you need to establish tone

I feel it's actually extra point that'd make having it good -- as being put on the trial and having to defend your actions establishes tone that matches very much the tone of the entire game. That is, being on the backfoot and having to convince others to see things your way, in order to end the crisis.

[TheRevanchist]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

iakus wrote...

Even a Star Wars-like opening crawl:

Mass Effect Episode III:  Return of the Shepard

Commander Shepard has returned to Earth(1) bearing information concerning the REAPERS(2), a synthetic life form that periodically wipes out all advanced organic life in the galaxy.(3)  The warning is met by the SYSTEMS ALLIANCE with skepticism,(4) as it was gained while Shepard was working with CERBERUS, a human terrorist organization, to foil servants of the REAPERS in the Terminus Systems.(5)  Little does the Alliance know, however, that the REAPERS have already entered the galaxy.  the culling has begun, and Earth is their next target...(6)

(1) established by Shepard being on Earth
(2) established in the opening dialogue with Anderson
(3) done in the actual opening crawl
(4) evident by how unprepared the brass actually is
(5) backstory, not needed by newcomers at this stage nor by existing fans who know it anyway; will likely be explored in the first confrontation w/Cerberus
(6) evident from the opening lines; made unnecessary by the actual arrival of the Reapers

"Show don't tell" is universally considered good advice for writers.  BioWare conveyed nearly all of the information in your crawl through actual dialogue and plot, which is way superior to making the audience read an essay before they can start enjoying the story.

Cept we're not shown a damn thing...we're told we hasn't put on trial for reasons that don't make sense. We're told he has received some sort of punishment for reasons we know nothing about. We are left to assume and interpret what has happend ourselves...this is not the the right way to tell a story.

The last thing I did in ME2 was stand on bridge of "my ship" after surviving collector base and having worked with Cerberus currently classed a terrorist organisation according to the Alliance, just destroyed 300k Batarians but still all my crew and myself on my ship. Somehow magically I am now currently on Earth without a dam clue how my Shepard who may have resisted returning or gone quietly (we don't know), get no idea about what Alliance admiarals think of both working for Cerberus, keeping a collector base, killing 300k Batarians. Andersons ****ty response is far beyond just inadequate after all that I have done, Vega's crappy opinion on what I may have done means nothing to me as to me he is nothing more than some random grunt soldier and I do not care what he thinks. The only admirals left alive that know about are ones already know and already know their feelings on my deeds.Their input is not the input I wish to see.

Also having to read and listen to a complete different media books and comics, movies is by no means adequate for furthing "My Shepards" story, in those it is their Shepard, the way he looks, the way he acts and the things he does and say area ll different to what mine would of done. I get no say in anything in those formats and they do not continue "my story". This would not be a problem is done through media of game or DLC because they can gently push a story in a direction while still allowing me to make the choices, stay in persona built up and create consequences that not only go along with my decisions but respond in a way that works towards reaching a point in time without breaking immersion or character.

If we go along with your "show not tell" approach then whats next step? Press start and the end sequence plays out for entire 3 minute movie? By your standards we can then "assume" that Shepard went to war killed the Reapers and won the day. In the format of game it is detrimental to not expand on what we may or may not know, experiencing it ourselves is what makes it a game and not a movie.

Erm...if you disagreed with me...it sure don't sound like it...

[AkiKishi]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

That's not what I said . I said your understanding will depend entirely on what other material you have read. I don't need some attempt at a dodge by throwing in a paragraph about GoW. I want an answer to my question* from you the self proclaimed champion of good writing.

I even bolded the relevent bit for you this time.

* What's the question?

Well that explains a lot.

Psst.  The bit you bolded isn't actually a question.

Yes I know. But you see had you read the bolded section in the other post. Thats another source by the way. You would have understood the question. But I guess you were confused by not reading the other source that was related to the post I made but not included in it. oops.

Entirely my fault for not putting the question in the post like I should have really sorry about that.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 21 février 2012 - 08:37 .

[Dragoonlordz]

kylecouch wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

iakus wrote...

Even a Star Wars-like opening crawl:

Mass Effect Episode III:  Return of the Shepard

Commander Shepard has returned to Earth(1) bearing information concerning the REAPERS(2), a synthetic life form that periodically wipes out all advanced organic life in the galaxy.(3)  The warning is met by the SYSTEMS ALLIANCE with skepticism,(4) as it was gained while Shepard was working with CERBERUS, a human terrorist organization, to foil servants of the REAPERS in the Terminus Systems.(5)  Little does the Alliance know, however, that the REAPERS have already entered the galaxy.  the culling has begun, and Earth is their next target...(6)

(1) established by Shepard being on Earth
(2) established in the opening dialogue with Anderson
(3) done in the actual opening crawl
(4) evident by how unprepared the brass actually is
(5) backstory, not needed by newcomers at this stage nor by existing fans who know it anyway; will likely be explored in the first confrontation w/Cerberus
(6) evident from the opening lines; made unnecessary by the actual arrival of the Reapers

"Show don't tell" is universally considered good advice for writers.  BioWare conveyed nearly all of the information in your crawl through actual dialogue and plot, which is way superior to making the audience read an essay before they can start enjoying the story.

Cept we're not shown a damn thing...we're told we hasn't put on trial for reasons that don't make sense. We're told he has received some sort of punishment for reasons we know nothing about. We are left to assume and interpret what has happend ourselves...this is not the the right way to tell a story.

The last thing I did in ME2 was stand on bridge of "my ship" after surviving collector base and having worked with Cerberus currently classed a terrorist organisation according to the Alliance, just destroyed 300k Batarians but still all my crew and myself on my ship. Somehow magically I am now currently on Earth without a damn clue how my Shepard who may have resisted returning or gone quietly (we don't know), get no idea about what Alliance admirals think of both working for Cerberus (except two already know from previous games and know how they feel), keeping a collector base and handing over to Cerberus, killing 300k Batarians. Andersons ****ty response is far beyond just inadequate after all that I have done, Vega's crappy opinion on what I may have done means nothing to me as to me he is nothing more than some random grunt soldier and I do not care what he thinks. The only admirals left alive that know about are ones already know and already know their feelings on my deeds.Their input is not the input I wish to see.

Also having to read and listen to a complete different media books and comics, movies is by no means adequate for furthering "my Shepards" story, in those it is their Shepard, the way he looks, the way he acts and the things he does and say are all different to what mine would of done. I get no say in anything in those formats and they do not continue "my story". This would not be a problem is done through media of game or DLC because they can gently push a story in a direction while still allowing me to make the choices, stay in persona built up and create consequences that not only go along with my decisions but respond in a way that works towards reaching a point in time without breaking immersion or character.

If we go along with your "show not tell" approach then whats next step? Press start and the end sequence plays out for entire 3 minute movie? By your standards we can then "assume" that Shepard went to war killed the Reapers and won the day. In the format of game it is detrimental to not expand on what we may or may not know, experiencing it ourselves is what makes it a game and not a movie.

Erm...if you disagreed with me...it sure don't sound like it...

Thats because I did not disagree. I expanded on what you said. 

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 21 février 2012 - 08:41 .