2915 réponses à ce sujet

[AkiKishi]

phimseto wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

As things stand only people who have played Arrival and read Conviction have that background detail.

Correction: Arrival, Conviction, *and* Retribution, which covers how Anderson went back into the Alliance.  The more I think about it and the more I hear the reactions of my friends, that last part is going to throw many returning players for an unhappy, frustrating loop.  

And again...the trial does matter, but really what matters is that the beginning be far more substantial that what's hinted at in the demo.  By "far more", I mean more than a few extra exchanges in the walk between the detention area and the boardroom.  

Sorry never even knew about that one. Is that a book ? The only reason I know about the Arrival/Conviction thing is because I asked in the demo feedback thread who the ape guy was.

[CaptainZaysh]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

My own issue with your stance is you held up GoW as good writing or atleast in sense of how come was not an issue in that but is one in ME3. I did not buy GoW, I will not be buying GoW, I consider it to be far lower quality writing and story then expect from Bioware and it relies so heavy on shooter and no personal character development. Different things altogether, I do not complain about GoW because I did not buy GoW. I plan on buying ME3 and if resorts to GoW's lower quality writing and story approach plus removing the RPG elements (yes I know RPG is subjective), then I will end up not buying ME3 either. It's just not what I am interested in or look for in a game.

You didn't understand the meaning of my post.  I wasn't holding up the intro to Gears as an example of especially good writing (although I don't think it's bad, especially not the original - it's certainly more thoughtful in places than it gets credit for).  I was trying to point out to Bob that video game fans are perfectly capable of understanding situations without every detail being spoon fed to them, which is what he seems to want.

[Heather Cline]

I think they should put the trial in for those who have played the first two games. If someone new is playing the game then they don't get the trial and thus can skip it. But for those of us importing a shepard it should be an unlock or a special thing for those of us who've bought and played the first two games.

[CaptainZaysh]

Farbautisonn wrote...

-Wat? Ive been a rather regular poster and lurker here and I didnt get that. I even played Arrival.

Moar evidence to the fact that anyone who hasnt played the DLC's and hung around the Fora intensively havent got a bastard clue.

I'm sure importers who last saw him on the Citadel will get some dialogue explaining his new station.  (In fact, one of the leaked codex entries suggests that to be the case.)

Non-import players wouldn't need it, of course, so you would be a fool to expect it from the demo.

[AkiKishi]

CaptainZaysh wrote...
One of the devs said that the comic didn't work very well.  It just mystified new players because they had very little context in which to make the decisions of the first game.  ("Umm...I guess her, because she's blue?")

This is one of the reasons I think a trial scene is such an incredibly stupid idea.  It serves no purpose for newcomers to the story, except to alienate them - how can you put someone on trial for events they have no recollection of taking part in?  Damn it, Shepard, why did you overload the Jalubian Defence Matrix in Sector Nine?  Um...no idea, your honour?

When quoting devs it's customary to provide a link or at least a name and thread title.

They have no recolection of arriving on Earth either or knowing a thing about the Reapers, was there a point in there somewhere? Lets just skip right to mincing with Anderson and get rid of all that confusing stuff and start shooting. Is that what you are advocating?

Modifié par BobSmith101, 21 février 2012 - 09:14 .

[CaptainZaysh]

Heather Cline wrote...

I think they should put the trial in for those who have played the first two games. If someone new is playing the game then they don't get the trial and thus can skip it. But for those of us importing a shepard it should be an unlock or a special thing for those of us who've bought and played the first two games.

D'you think?  That seems like a pretty big easter egg to me.  I also really doubt as a logistic thing they could write and record every Shepard's defence for all his or her questionable choices.

[tmp7704]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

This is one of the reasons I think a trial scene is such an incredibly stupid idea.  It serves no purpose for newcomers to the story, except to alienate them - how can you put someone on trial for events they have no recollection of taking part in?  Damn it, Shepard, why did you overload the Jalubian Defence Matrix in Sector Nine?  Um...no idea, your honour?

Just to clarify; are you making this theoretical exposition so bad on purpose, because it happens to fit the point you're trying to make ... or do you genuinely can't think of more effective ways to use it?

[mauro2222]

Heather Cline wrote...

I think they should put the trial in for those who have played the first two games. If someone new is playing the game then they don't get the trial and thus can skip it. But for those of us importing a shepard it should be an unlock or a special thing for those of us who've bought and played the first two games.

It doesn't seem that hard to implement. When you press New Game a window appears asking you if this is your first time with Mass effect or something of the like.

[Dragoonlordz]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

My own issue with your stance is you held up GoW as good writing or atleast in sense of how come was not an issue in that but is one in ME3. I did not buy GoW, I will not be buying GoW, I consider it to be far lower quality writing and story then expect from Bioware and it relies so heavy on shooter and no personal character development. Different things altogether, I do not complain about GoW because I did not buy GoW. I plan on buying ME3 and if resorts to GoW's lower quality writing and story approach plus removing the RPG elements (yes I know RPG is subjective), then I will end up not buying ME3 either. It's just not what I am interested in or look for in a game.

You didn't understand the meaning of my post.  I wasn't holding up the intro to Gears as an example of especially good writing (although I don't think it's bad, especially not the original - it's certainly more thoughtful in places than it gets credit for).  I was trying to point out to Bob that video game fans are perfectly capable of understanding situations without every detail being spoon fed to them, which is what he seems to want.

It would do you zero harm to have it present. Five minutes of a game that lasts between 40 and 120+ hours is not going to give you leprosy or bring the walls crashing down around you but for them it would greatly enhance the enjoyment of the game. It's not I am sure going to disappoint you having it as much as it disappoints others not having it.

As it stands right now I am not at that stage mentioned in what you replied to from me but it has just created two major concerns about the full retail game based on the demonstration. Those are huge concerns but I only have demo to go on so can't decide based on that alone right now. The demonstration also created 2 minor concerns and there was one concern regardless of demo to begin with. My two biggest concerns come from the start of game and impact on rest of it. Extreme use of auto dialogue and poor introduction which I consider poor quality story telling, it breaks persona and immersion of my character created through past two games. The trial itself is just an element that effects one of those concerns but the introduction as a whole is a major part that caused both to exist.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 21 février 2012 - 09:20 .

[TheRevanchist]

phimseto wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

As things stand only people who have played Arrival and read Conviction have that background detail.

Correction: Arrival, Conviction, *and* Retribution, which covers how Anderson went back into the Alliance.  The more I think about it and the more I hear the reactions of my friends, that last part is going to throw many returning players for an unhappy, frustrating loop.  

And again...the trial does matter, but really what matters is that the beginning be far more substantial that what's hinted at in the demo.  By "far more", I mean more than a few extra exchanges in the walk between the detention area and the boardroom.  

Actually Retribution just makes it worse...because he shouldn't be in the Military at all...he should just be some random black guy with an awsome VA. In that book he resigns from any and all posts he held...that includes being an Admiral...not just Counsilor.

[CaptainZaysh]

BobSmith101 wrote...

When quoting devs it's customary to provide a link or at least a name and thread title.

Didn't store a link, sorry.  It was ages ago.

BobSmith101 wrote...
They have no recolection of arriving on Earth either or knowing a thing about the Reapers, was there a point in there somewhere?

That's the point of the ME3 intro as it stands: you don't need to know the back story to understand that Shepard is a bit of a maverick, has history with the Reapers, and that the Reapers are really bad news.  That's why I asked you what bit doesn't work without reading Conviction or whatever it was you originally contended.

[Heather Cline]

Zaysh I think it would work. I mean it would be something to keep the hardcore fans happy but the new gamers wouldn't give a crap about it.

mauro no that wouldn't work. It would be best if the trial unlocked because of a direct import from ME2. So if you import you get to play through the trial. If you don't import then you just play the game as normal without the trial. Simple solution. Not sure how hard it'd be to code it in, but it'd be something to make both camps happy.

[CaptainZaysh]

tmp7704 wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

This is one of the reasons I think a trial scene is such an incredibly stupid idea.  It serves no purpose for newcomers to the story, except to alienate them - how can you put someone on trial for events they have no recollection of taking part in?  Damn it, Shepard, why did you overload the Jalubian Defence Matrix in Sector Nine?  Um...no idea, your honour?

Just to clarify; are you making this theoretical exposition so bad on purpose, because it happens to fit the point you're trying to make ... or do you genuinely can't think of more effective ways to use it?

I was trying to illustrate how confusing it would be to have to defend your actions in the Aratoht system if you had never heard words like "Aratoht", "Batarian" and "mass relay" before.  Didn't I nail it?

[CaptainZaysh]

Heather Cline wrote...

Zaysh I think it would work. I mean it would be something to keep the hardcore fans happy but the new gamers wouldn't give a crap about it.

I dunno, Heather, I've seen threads about the Collector Base or Rachni decision go on for hundreds of pages!  I reckon that if Bioware didn't have at least fifty possible responses for every question Shepard got asked, this forum would produce enough nerd rage for us to power our own mass relay in real life.

[Farbautisonn]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

I'm sure importers who last saw him on the Citadel will get some dialogue explaining his new station.  (In fact, one of the leaked codex entries suggests that to be the case.)

Non-import players wouldn't need it, of course, so you would be a fool to expect it from the demo.

Referring to the Codex i bollox in storytelling. Its pretty much the same as having to refer to a lexicon in the middle of a great novel. This isnt LotR where one might expect the need for some kind of appendix to elaborate on things.

The Codex is for "nice to know". Not "Need to know". Everything that is "need to know" has to be in the storyline, presented in some form or other to the reader/player. If you do not, you breed confusion. A confused reader puts the book away.

[AkiKishi]

CaptainZaysh wrote...
That's the point of the ME3 intro as it stands: you don't need to know the back story to understand that Shepard is a bit of a maverick, has history with the Reapers, and that the Reapers are really bad news.  That's why I asked you what bit doesn't work without reading Conviction or whatever it was you originally contended.

If you approach the game with a GoW mentality maybe. This is roleplaying game not GoW. The only thing you need to know in GoW is how to shoot stuff. I was rather hoping ME3 set the bar a little higher than that, but I guess not.

Still this is all academic the games gone gold and there is no trial. Now it's just a case of how this is greeted in the gaming press.

[phimseto]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

I'm sure importers who last saw him on the Citadel will get some dialogue explaining his new station.  (In fact, one of the leaked codex entries suggests that to be the case.)

Non-import players wouldn't need it, of course, so you would be a fool to expect it from the demo.

What you are talking about is the resolution of one of the major choices that you make in the first Mass Effect game.  To have it unceremoniously dropped on you and then unceremoniously explained in a casual aside (and codex entry) is pretty shabby.  We're talking "Poochy died on the way back to his home planet" shabby.  

Modifié par phimseto, 21 février 2012 - 09:22 .

[CaptainZaysh]

Farbautisonn wrote...

Referring to the Codex i bollox in storytelling. Its pretty much the same as having to refer to a lexicon in the middle of a great novel. This isnt LotR where one might expect the need for some kind of appendix to elaborate on things.

The Codex is for "nice to know". Not "Need to know". Everything that is "need to know" has to be in the storyline, presented in some form or other to the reader/player. If you do not, you breed confusion. A confused reader puts the book away.

Yeah, I'd be really surprised if there wasn't a line of in-game dialogue.

[Farbautisonn]

kylecouch wrote...

Actually Retribution just makes it worse...because he shouldn't be in the Military at all...he should just be some random black guy with an awsome VA. In that book he resigns from any and all posts he held...that includes being an Admiral...not just Counsilor.

-Well. Im sure there will be a Codex entry explaining why he is back and how there can be such a great discrepency.

[Heather Cline]

Zaysh maybe so but seriously I think it would at least make many of the hardcore fans happy. Yeah you're always going to have a bunch of people not like it but that's the business. However completely cutting it out is not the solution either because as you can see people are really angry on both sides of this.

[TheRevanchist]

BobSmith101 wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...
That's the point of the ME3 intro as it stands: you don't need to know the back story to understand that Shepard is a bit of a maverick, has history with the Reapers, and that the Reapers are really bad news.  That's why I asked you what bit doesn't work without reading Conviction or whatever it was you originally contended.

If you approach the game with a GoW mentality maybe. This is roleplaying game not GoW. The only thing you need to know in GoW is how to shoot stuff. I was rather hoping ME3 set the bar a little higher than that, but I guess not.

Still this is all academic the games gone gold and there is no trial. Now it's just a case of how this is greeted in the gaming press.

Considering the massive praise games like GoW get...I would assume it gets good "reviews"

[Farbautisonn]

Im not angry. Im dissapointed. Big difference. I thought I was supporting the benchmark storyteller of the gaming industy. It looks increasingly like a fanfic could have done a better job at narrative cohesion.

[Heather Cline]

farbaustisonn disappointed goes with angry as well as ticked off and other emotions. but the same idea still applies.

[CaptainZaysh]

I'm sure I'm in a minority, here, but I actually thought the original GoW was written with real pathos. Looking past the cartoonish physical size of the protagonists, I found the whole story - a group of soldiers fighting a losing battle amid the ruins of their civilisation - quite sad and compelling.

[Farbautisonn]

Frustrated. perhaps. Slightly bitter over what I have seen. Dissapointed bordering on feeling a sting of betrayal. But angry. No. No point in being angry. Bio will do what bio will do.