2915 réponses à ce sujet

[TheRevanchist]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Skyblade012 wrote...

I'll take an example we're all familiar with.  The Lord of the Rings.  You cut the entire intro explanation of Sauron and the Ring.  You'd cut the dialogue at Bag End where Gandalf decides to send Frodo off.  You'd cut the scenes in the Prancing Pony with Aragorn.  You'd cut the discussion between Gandalf and Saruman.  You'd cut the entire Council of Elrond.  You'd cut the scenes in Lothlorien.  I probably missed a few things, but every bit of those scenes do nothing except give exposition, so they have to go.

You've totally misunderstood my post (again, actually!), although I will confess that I would certainly have cut Tom Bombadil.

You would cut Tom Bombadil!?!?!? GET OUT!

[TheRevanchist]

BobSmith101 wrote...

That bit with the last Alliance in LOTR don't really need that. It's not like it advances the plot,just gives contexted to the history of the ring.

Thats the point? it tells you WHY it's freakin importent!

[Dragoonlordz]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Capeo wrote...

I've personally written a lot of scripts and got one independently made.  

Oh, awesome, well done!

Capeo wrote...
Film and a (supposed) RPG have nothing in common when it comes to writing.  You don't want someone wandering around bewildered in a game.  There's no such thing as flab when you're not forced to listen to lines but instead can choose to.  You should always be sure the core motovations get across in the basic script but you certainly should be able to ask questions in an RPG.

I disagree.  Asking questions to invite "As you know, Bob," expository responses strikes me as incredibly inelegant writing, whatever the medium.

You coming at it from wrong standpoint. You are coming at it from the stance they already took. The "...Anyone else for the **** you have done" style they already put in game, as opposed to what we are talking about "Why did you do that ****?".

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 21 février 2012 - 10:43 .

[TheRevanchist]

Klijpope wrote...

A trial that would satisfy the needs of a lot of folk here would bewilder the newbies way more than the incomplete intro we have seen.

I agree writing for film and writing for an rpg are different, but they do have loads in common. And I'm not saying the intro is perfect - just that the beginning is not a wise place to use up the opportunity of a trial - use it where it will have consequences. Much more interesting.

You assume it can't have consequences in the begining. Hardly the truth.

[Klijpope]

Actually, using LOTR is a dangerous analogy. Sticking a trial at the beginning would be more like putting the Council of Elrond at the beginning of the book.

Anyway, the proper analogy would be Return of the King, and that begins with Gandalf and Pippin in Minas Tirith - we have to wait until the second half until we find out what happens to the main protagonist.

[Klijpope]

kylecouch wrote...

Klijpope wrote...

A trial that would satisfy the needs of a lot of folk here would bewilder the newbies way more than the incomplete intro we have seen.

I agree writing for film and writing for an rpg are different, but they do have loads in common. And I'm not saying the intro is perfect - just that the beginning is not a wise place to use up the opportunity of a trial - use it where it will have consequences. Much more interesting.

You assume it can't have consequences in the begining. Hardly the truth.

Pretty unfair to have dialogue with proper consequences when the newbies have no context or idea what is going on.

[Dragoonlordz]

Klijpope wrote...

A trial that would satisfy the needs of a lot of folk here would bewilder the newbies way more than the incomplete intro we have seen.

I agree writing for film and writing for an rpg are different, but they do have loads in common. And I'm not saying the intro is perfect - just that the beginning is not a wise place to use up the opportunity of a trial - use it where it will have consequences. Much more interesting.

Who with? Shepard was with military alliance long before council, he or she is "human" and they are his people. A trial with them cannot be compared to someone like council already had two confrontations with in previous games. There would be no trial with Batarians he would be executed on sight. Vega cannot replace the admirals he is just a soldier, one that is lower rank than you both prior to a trial and after leave Earth when reinstated. Hackett and Anderson plus Udina again cannot replace the admirals just butchered, because their opinions are already made known in ME2.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 21 février 2012 - 10:42 .

[Gerther]

Klijpope wrote...

A trial that would satisfy the needs of a lot of folk here would bewilder the newbies way more than the incomplete intro we have seen.

I agree writing for film and writing for an rpg are different, but they do have loads in common. And I'm not saying the intro is perfect - just that the beginning is not a wise place to use up the opportunity of a trial - use it where it will have consequences. Much more interesting.

I think you have imagined this huge drawn out experience which is why a trial seems "bewildering" to you.

A noobie understands he/she is playing the third part of a trilogy. The trial would tell you EXATCTLY why certain alien races are angry at you and that if you want them on your side, you have to be extremely convincing or intimidating. As of now the player has zero context as to what the state of affairs are in the galaxy that he/she is trying to save.

Also important to note that even veteran players have NO IDEA if their previous decisions have carried over at all.

Modifié par Gerther, 21 février 2012 - 10:48 .

[TheRevanchist]

Klijpope wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

Klijpope wrote...

A trial that would satisfy the needs of a lot of folk here would bewilder the newbies way more than the incomplete intro we have seen.

I agree writing for film and writing for an rpg are different, but they do have loads in common. And I'm not saying the intro is perfect - just that the beginning is not a wise place to use up the opportunity of a trial - use it where it will have consequences. Much more interesting.

You assume it can't have consequences in the begining. Hardly the truth.

Pretty unfair to have dialogue with proper consequences when the newbies have no context or idea what is going on.

have a trial only appear in important saves. people with no import data get the craptastic intro we have now...only fitting for someone who chose to ignore a Trilogy for 5 years.

[AkiKishi]

Klijpope wrote...

Actually, using LOTR is a dangerous analogy. Sticking a trial at the beginning would be more like putting the Council of Elrond at the beginning of the book.

How do you come to that conclusion?

[Dragoonlordz]

kylecouch wrote...

Klijpope wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

Klijpope wrote...

A trial that would satisfy the needs of a lot of folk here would bewilder the newbies way more than the incomplete intro we have seen.

I agree writing for film and writing for an rpg are different, but they do have loads in common. And I'm not saying the intro is perfect - just that the beginning is not a wise place to use up the opportunity of a trial - use it where it will have consequences. Much more interesting.

You assume it can't have consequences in the begining. Hardly the truth.

Pretty unfair to have dialogue with proper consequences when the newbies have no context or idea what is going on.

have a trial only appear in important saves. people with no import data get the craptastic intro we have now...only fitting for someone who chose to ignore a Trilogy for 5 years.

While given trial is only part of the problem for me I think what you just said would of been fine, but failing that cut it from Action and Story modes but keep it in RPG mode. You know what Bioware's end game is though on this (imho), they are going to turn around later post some false information about how most people played only Action mode or Story mode and not RPG mode then proclaim that as evidence they do not need to any longer give dialogue choices and can go full steam ahead with linear character titles from here on out.

Okay I may be exaggerating but if this happens as least I can turn around and say "See. I knew it!".

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 21 février 2012 - 10:53 .

[Klijpope]

kylecouch wrote...

Klijpope wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

Klijpope wrote...

A trial that would satisfy the needs of a lot of folk here would bewilder the newbies way more than the incomplete intro we have seen.

I agree writing for film and writing for an rpg are different, but they do have loads in common. And I'm not saying the intro is perfect - just that the beginning is not a wise place to use up the opportunity of a trial - use it where it will have consequences. Much more interesting.

You assume it can't have consequences in the begining. Hardly the truth.

Pretty unfair to have dialogue with proper consequences when the newbies have no context or idea what is going on.

have a trial only appear in important saves. people with no import data get the craptastic intro we have now...only fitting for someone who chose to ignore a Trilogy for 5 years.

ie: Fan service.

[AlexXIV]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Klijpope wrote...

Actually, using LOTR is a dangerous analogy. Sticking a trial at the beginning would be more like putting the Council of Elrond at the beginning of the book.

How do you come to that conclusion?

Yeah especially because we are already in Part III: Return of the King Shepard.

[tmp7704]

Klijpope wrote...

And I'm not saying the intro is perfect - just that the beginning is not a wise place to use up the opportunity of a trial - use it where it will have consequences. Much more interesting.

I'd have to disagree about the more interesting part -- mainly because having just some regular trial scene about whatever runs into risk of making someone who'd played previous installments draw automatic comparisons with the ME2 trial scene (and possibly even the council hearings from both previous installments) and potentially just yawn.

Modifié par tmp7704, 21 février 2012 - 10:52 .

[furryrage59]

Not including the trial which i feel is important so it doesn't confuse new fans is extremely lame.

[Klijpope]

Gerther wrote...

I think you have imagined this huge drawn out experience which is why a trial seems "bewildering" to you.

Unless a trial is substantial is it garaunteed to infuriate folk just as much as what we have now. There's no way in hell in can accommodate all the unrealistic expectations in evidence on this thread. That and alienate new players too. That would be sweet.

[Dragoonlordz]

Klijpope wrote...

ie: Fan service.

Vast amount of content in game is fan service from LI's, female Shepard, same sex relationship companions, variety of classes and weapons. A character creator, dialogue choices it's all fan service.

You got problem with all that?  

[AkiKishi]

Klijpope wrote...

Gerther wrote...

I think you have imagined this huge drawn out experience which is why a trial seems "bewildering" to you.

Unless a trial is substantial is it garaunteed to infuriate folk just as much as what we have now. There's no way in hell in can accommodate all the unrealistic expectations in evidence on this thread. That and alienate new players too. That would be sweet.

So the solution is to pretend it never happened and annoy everyone instead ?

[Dragoonlordz]

Klijpope wrote...

Gerther wrote...

I think you have imagined this huge drawn out experience which is why a trial seems "bewildering" to you.

Unless a trial is substantial is it garaunteed to infuriate folk just as much as what we have now. There's no way in hell in can accommodate all the unrealistic expectations in evidence on this thread. That and alienate new players too. That would be sweet.

A lot of people spoke already in here that new player friends of theirs feel same way.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 21 février 2012 - 11:00 .

[Klijpope]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Klijpope wrote...

ie: Fan service.

Vast amount of content in game is fan service from LI's, female Shepard, same sex relationship companions, variety of classes and weapons. A character creator, dialogue choices it's all fan service.

You got problem with all that?  

Not in-game. Right at the beginning, very much so. Makes it inaccessible to new players, and that is not good game design.

Dragoonlordz wrote...


A lot of people spoke already in here that new player friends of theirs feel same way.

x100 with a trial which they have no context for.

Modifié par Klijpope, 21 février 2012 - 11:02 .

[Dragoonlordz]

Klijpope wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Klijpope wrote...

ie: Fan service.

Vast amount of content in game is fan service from LI's, female Shepard, same sex relationship companions, variety of classes and weapons. A character creator, dialogue choices it's all fan service.

You got problem with all that?  

Not in-game. Right at the beginning, very much so.

Why? Makes no difference if start, middle or end.

[Paula Deen]

Farbautisonn wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Yeah, there is.  Exposition by definition doesn't advance the actual story, so it needs to be cut ruthlessly wherever possible.  It's story flab. .

Only problem with your logic here is that this is a storydriven fps/rpg. In Rpgs you are usually rather dependent on and most really like "story flab". If we didnt we wouldn't go out and buy novels and magazines that provide extra "flab". Dragon Magazine wouldnt have ever gotten off the ground. Neither would many of the wikis or websites that deal exclusively with "flab".

Here's a good site that explains the universally agreed basics of scriptwriting..

-According to whom? And is all writing, scriptwriting, story writing, gamewriting, writing novels etc "universable agreeable upon"? This "cookie cutter" recepy is at best arrogant, and at worst directly misleading.

Because movies and TV shows are generally of such high quality and showcase excellent writing.

Exposition is NOT something to be cut wherever it's not absolutely necessary. Even in good fanfiction, providing exposition as to what the story is about and where it generally aims to go is critical.

With ME3's intro--let's say that I was new to the series. It wouldn't be all that jarring, sure, but only because I have no idea what the hell is going on. Sure, the Reapers are really powerful, apparently want to wipe us out (did it even mention that?), and we have some kind of history with them.

But that's about it. We don't know that the Reapers regularly harvest or kill all sentient life in the galaxy, or that, contrary to Shepard's EXTREME out-of-character moment, the fight is NOT on Earth, it's all over the freaking galaxy and you need help (or a trump card). You don't even know that other sentient races exist, period, which is ABSURD (the word "batarians" is mentioned once, but that could easily mean someone's nationality).

For returning players, it's much clearer in terms of exposition, but it's extremely jarring because it conflicts with what makes sense. Within a few minutes of Shepard lounging about in his room, the Reapers have bulldozed the entire Earth fleet and started laying waste to EVERY major city on Earth.

Which goes completely contradictory to Arrival's (then shocking) claim that the Reapers could be at Earth in two days once arriving at the edge of the galaxy. Given how dozens of colonies rapidly going dark in unprecedented fashion indicates a mass invasion, you'd think people at Alliance HQ wouldn't be so stupidly nonchallant and not even bothering to tell veritable experts on the enemy that they're even in the damn galaxy.

Anderson, whom was picked to be on the Council in 95% of playthroughs, is talking like he was never on it, let alone why he isn't still a member at all (which can only be learned OF, let alone why, by reading the most recent ME books). Shepard is talking like the Reapers are only attacking Earth, that there isn't much point to leaving Earth at all, and the whole intro strongly implies that either Shepard never provided any tactical advice for combating the Reapers AT ALL (nor did Anderson), or that none of the Alliance Admirals ever looked at it.

Neither of which make even one iota of sense.

So what happened to the trial? Okay, apparently it got downgraded to a hearing...about the Reapers, not even about Shepard. And the hearing lasts about two minutes, if that. In fact, not a single person in the "hearing" even mentions any of Shepard's past deeds. At all.

So is there a disconnect? Is it jarring? Extremely. It makes no ****ing sense for any ME fan who remembers the storyline so far. It also clearly violates logical sense for anyone who knows the ME verse at all; the admiralty apparently didn't even bother to ak the galaxy's leading Reaper expert for advice (or listen to him, or read anything on the subject...) until the Reapers were in Earth orbit.

Oh, and no one saw fit to mention to Shepard (or anyone, it seems, given how Vega and Ashley have no idea either) that anything is amiss, until, again, the Reapers are close to Luna (the moon).

It blows my mind that the writing team thought this was a good idea. Especially when ME2's intro was a LOT better, made sense the whole way through, and only felt slow to an ME veteran starting their fifth playthrough. It also had plenty of optional dialogue (which was excellently written) to flesh out the story, characters, situation, for anyone who wanted to.

[TheRevanchist]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Klijpope wrote...

ie: Fan service.

Vast amount of content in game is fan service from LI's, female Shepard, same sex relationship companions, variety of classes and weapons. A character creator, dialogue choices it's all fan service.

You got problem with all that?  

Apparently...

[Farbautisonn]

Paula Deen wrote...

Because movies and TV shows are generally of such high quality and showcase excellent writing.

-Sarcasm detected.

Exposition is NOT something to be cut wherever it's not absolutely necessary. Even in good fanfiction, providing exposition as to what the story is about and where it generally aims to go is critical.

With ME3's intro--let's say that I was new to the series. It wouldn't be all that jarring, sure, but only because I have no idea what the hell is going on. Sure, the Reapers are really powerful, apparently want to wipe us out (did it even mention that?), and we have some kind of history with them.

But that's about it. We don't know that the Reapers regularly harvest or kill all sentient life in the galaxy, or that, contrary to Shepard's EXTREME out-of-character moment, the fight is NOT on Earth, it's all over the freaking galaxy and you need help (or a trump card). You don't even know that other sentient races exist, period, which is ABSURD (the word "batarians" is mentioned once, but that could easily mean someone's nationality).

For returning players, it's much clearer in terms of exposition, but it's extremely jarring because it conflicts with what makes sense. Within a few minutes of Shepard lounging about in his room, the Reapers have bulldozed the entire Earth fleet and started laying waste to EVERY major city on Earth.

Which goes completely contradictory to Arrival's (then shocking) claim that the Reapers could be at Earth in two days once arriving at the edge of the galaxy. Given how dozens of colonies rapidly going dark in unprecedented fashion indicates a mass invasion, you'd think people at Alliance HQ wouldn't be so stupidly nonchallant and not even bothering to tell veritable experts on the enemy that they're even in the damn galaxy.

Anderson, whom was picked to be on the Council in 95% of playthroughs, is talking like he was never on it, let alone why he isn't still a member at all (which can only be learned OF, let alone why, by reading the most recent ME books). Shepard is talking like the Reapers are only attacking Earth, that there isn't much point to leaving Earth at all, and the whole intro strongly implies that either Shepard never provided any tactical advice for combating the Reapers AT ALL (nor did Anderson), or that none of the Alliance Admirals ever looked at it.

Neither of which make even one iota of sense.

So what happened to the trial? Okay, apparently it got downgraded to a hearing...about the Reapers, not even about Shepard. And the hearing lasts about two minutes, if that. In fact, not a single person in the "hearing" even mentions any of Shepard's past deeds. At all.

So is there a disconnect? Is it jarring? Extremely. It makes no ****ing sense for any ME fan who remembers the storyline so far. It also clearly violates logical sense for anyone who knows the ME verse at all; the admiralty apparently didn't even bother to ak the galaxy's leading Reaper expert for advice (or listen to him, or read anything on the subject...) until the Reapers were in Earth orbit.

Oh, and no one saw fit to mention to Shepard (or anyone, it seems, given how Vega and Ashley have no idea either) that anything is amiss, until, again, the Reapers are close to Luna (the moon).

It blows my mind that the writing team thought this was a good idea. Especially when ME2's intro was a LOT better, made sense the whole way through, and only felt slow to an ME veteran starting their fifth playthrough. It also had plenty of optional dialogue (which was excellently written) to flesh out the story, characters, situation, for anyone who wanted to.

-Agree 100%

[RazorrX]

There needs to be *something* before the point where you hear of the fleet being put on alert to explain WTH is going on. It does not have to be a trial, it does not even have to be interactive, but it should let the player (both old and new) understand that This is what is going on, this is why you are here, etc.

As the final episode in a trilogy where the last book/game had you in your own ship just having destroyed or claimed a collector base (and/or having done Arrival). There should be something that bridges that into the new game. It could be a brief slideshow with narrative by Lance Hendrikson (because his voice is badass) where you are told a very quick summary of events from ME1 through ME2 and then focus on what happened After ME2.

ME 1 had a written intro to get us up to speed and dialog before the planet fall to let us meet people as well as get some background understanding of the state of things in the ME universe.

ME2 had the discussion between Miranda and TIM about what shep had accomplished in ME1 and how he was the best hope for the future, followed by the Normandy getting blown up then the Repairing and into the game.

ME 3 should have something like that as well.