2915 réponses à ce sujet

[AkiKishi]

RazorrX wrote...

There needs to be *something* before the point where you hear of the fleet being put on alert to explain WTH is going on. It does not have to be a trial, it does not even have to be interactive, but it should let the player (both old and new) understand that This is what is going on, this is why you are here, etc.

As the final episode in a trilogy where the last book/game had you in your own ship just having destroyed or claimed a collector base (and/or having done Arrival). There should be something that bridges that into the new game. It could be a brief slideshow with narrative by Lance Hendrikson (because his voice is badass) where you are told a very quick summary of events from ME1 through ME2 and then focus on what happened After ME2.

ME 1 had a written intro to get us up to speed and dialog before the planet fall to let us meet people as well as get some background understanding of the state of things in the ME universe.

ME2 had the discussion between Miranda and TIM about what shep had accomplished in ME1 and how he was the best hope for the future, followed by the Normandy getting blown up then the Repairing and into the game.

ME 3 should have something like that as well.

There should be, but it's too late now. Games gone gold, all that is left to see if the game publications put Bioware on trial. Or give them a free pass for services rendered.

[Wulfram]

tmp7704 wrote...

Klijpope wrote...

And I'm not saying the intro is perfect - just that the beginning is not a wise place to use up the opportunity of a trial - use it where it will have consequences. Much more interesting.

I'd have to disagree about the more interesting part -- mainly because having just some regular trial scene about whatever runs into risk of making someone who'd played previous installments draw automatic comparisons with the ME2 trial scene (and possibly even the council hearings from both previous installments) and potentially just yawn.

Yet they chose to open with a "Shepard rants at the council scene" scene, just with some soon to be deceased admirals standing in for the council?

[Klijpope]

 This from a fresh Guardian games blog preview - from the first 90 mins.

(although potential SPOILER)




"At last, it was time to dive into the story, which opened on Earth, with Shepard grounded and stalking around in a somewhat frustrated manner as a result. Once again, he (we chose a male Shepard) was given to muttering apocalyptic pronouncements about the imminent arrival of the Reapers. And sure enough, the Earth-based command centre lost touch with two deep space outposts. A brief exchange with Admiral Anderson established that Shepard would be allowed to resume command of the Normandy if the reaper invasion he was predicting did take place. And indeed it did, with suitably impressive pyrotechnics."

 Don't know if this helps, but seems like more info than we saw in the demo.

[tmp7704]

Wulfram wrote...

Yet they chose to open with a "Shepard rants at the council scene" scene, just with some soon to be deceased admirals standing in for the council?

Which is why imo Reapers showing up and blowing everything to **** in the middle of it is the saving grace

[AkiKishi]

tmp7704 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Yet they chose to open with a "Shepard rants at the council scene" scene, just with some soon to be deceased admirals standing in for the council?

Which is why imo Reapers showing up and blowing everything to **** in the middle of it is the saving grace

Never thought I would be happy to see the Reapers.

I posted a link to FFXIII-2's opening in another thread. That things gives the cinematic trailer a run for it's money and makes ME3 in game intro look like something from the 80's. Little sprites running away I LoL'd.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 21 février 2012 - 11:36 .

[CaptainZaysh]

Paula Deen wrote...

Because movies and TV shows are generally of such high quality and showcase excellent writing.

Of course film and TV is full of examples of high quality writing.  Saying otherwise is ridiculous.  Do you really want me to write out a list?

Paula Deen wrote...

Exposition is NOT something to be cut wherever it's not absolutely necessary. Even in good fanfiction, providing exposition as to what the story is about and where it generally aims to go is critical.

I don't often say this, but: lol.

Paula Deen wrote...

With ME3's intro--let's say that I was new to the series. It wouldn't be all that jarring, sure, but only because I have no idea what the hell is going on. Sure, the Reapers are really powerful, apparently want to wipe us out (did it even mention that?), and we have some kind of history with them.

Yes.  This is the story about the Reaper invasion; you would expect this to be the focus of the introduction.

Paula Deen wrote...

But that's about it. We don't know that the Reapers regularly harvest or kill all sentient life in the galaxy,(1) or that, contrary to Shepard's EXTREME out-of-character moment, the fight is NOT on Earth,(2) it's all over the freaking galaxy and you need help (or a trump card). You don't even know that other sentient races exist, period,(3) which is ABSURD (the word "batarians" is mentioned once, but that could easily mean someone's nationality).

(1) I believe it's explicitly mentioned in the intro.  Even if it weren't, that kind of backstory is much lower priority than the fact they are here now and they are killing us.

(2) the fight is, at that moment, precisely on Earth.  The fact you consider a soldier expressing doubts about fleeing the front line an "extreme out of character moment" makes me believe even more strongly that BW would need to record hundreds of lines of dialogue to ensure your Shep could mount an in-character defence of his or her actions on moral issues as enormously complex as Aratoht.

(3) "humanity joined a peaceful galactic civilisation" is again directly mentioned in the intro text, and Anderson urges you explicitly to go get help from the other races.

Paula Deen wrote...

For returning players, it's much clearer in terms of exposition, but it's extremely jarring because it conflicts with what makes sense. Within a few minutes of Shepard lounging about in his room, the Reapers have bulldozed the entire Earth fleet and started laying waste to EVERY major city on Earth.

Which goes completely contradictory to Arrival's (then shocking) claim that the Reapers could be at Earth in two days once arriving at the edge of the galaxy. Given how dozens of colonies rapidly going dark in unprecedented fashion indicates a mass invasion, you'd think people at Alliance HQ wouldn't be so stupidly nonchallant and not even bothering to tell veritable experts on the enemy that they're even in the damn galaxy.

The Reapers could have reached Earth in 2 days if Shep hadn't blown up the relay they were approaching.  I think it's pretty clear that the defence committee didn't take much advantage of the warning and the prep time Shepard won for them.

Paula Deen wrote...
Anderson, whom was picked to be on the Council in 95% of playthroughs, is talking like he was never on it, let alone why he isn't still a member at all (which can only be learned OF, let alone why, by reading the most recent ME books).

Anderson was not picked to be on the Council in 100% of the demo playthroughs.

Paula Deen wrote...
Shepard is talking like the Reapers are only attacking Earth,

At the present time there's nothing to suggest that's incorrect.

Paula Deen wrote...

that there isn't much point to leaving Earth at all,

It really doesn't strike you as plausible that Shepard would express doubt about picking up a gun and heading away from humanity's last stand?

[AkiKishi]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Anderson was not picked to be on the Council in 100% of the demo playthroughs.

Is your arguement that what people have done in the previous games does not matter ? 
New people are going to be confused period. Trial or no trial ME3 plonks you down in media res with no context. Even ME1 explains why you are on a ship with a bunch of strangers.

ME1 Bioware explain things.
ME2 Bioware explain things, even provide a comic
ME3 Bioware half ass it just like DA2.

[CaptainZaysh]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Is your arguement that what people have done in the previous games does not matter ? 

No, Bob, it's that it makes absolutely no sense for Anderson to explain to Shepard why he stepped down from the Council in a playthrough in which he was never appointed to the Council in the first place.

[Farbautisonn]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

No, Bob, it's that it makes absolutely no sense for Anderson to explain to Shepard why he stepped down from the Council in a playthrough in which he was never appointed to the Council in the first place.

-Then it would make sense to ask why Udina canned him, why he is now back in uniform and how long he has been back.

[Farbautisonn]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Paula Deen wrote...

Because movies and TV shows are generally of such high quality and showcase excellent writing.

Of course film and TV is full of examples of high quality writing.  Saying otherwise is ridiculous.  Do you really want me to write out a list?

Generally vs Examples. Learn the difference.

Also your Film and television is full of examples of extremely crap writing. Saying otherwise is Ridiculous. Do you really want me to write out a full list? 

[Klijpope]

Did anyone bother to read this I posted above?



"At last, it was time to dive into the story, which opened on Earth, with Shepard grounded and stalking around in a somewhat frustrated manner as a result. Once again, he (we chose a male Shepard) was given to muttering apocalyptic pronouncements about the imminent arrival of the Reapers. And sure enough, the Earth-based command centre lost touch with two deep space outposts. A brief exchange with Admiral Anderson established that Shepard would be allowed to resume command of the Normandy if the reaper invasion he was predicting did take place. And indeed it did, with suitably impressive pyrotechnics." from The Guardian, 21/2/12

[CaptainZaysh]

Farbautisonn wrote...

Generally vs Examples. Learn the difference.

Also your Film and television is full of examples of extremely crap writing. Saying otherwise is Ridiculous. Do you really want me to write out a full list? 

I'd love to see a list of all this good fanfiction you guys say is out there.  

[Dragoonlordz]

Klijpope wrote...

 This from a fresh Guardian games blog preview - from the first 90 mins.

(although potential SPOILER)

"At last, it was time to dive into the story, which opened on Earth, with Shepard grounded and stalking around in a somewhat frustrated manner as a result. Once again, he (we chose a male Shepard) was given to muttering apocalyptic pronouncements about the imminent arrival of the Reapers. And sure enough, the Earth-based command centre lost touch with two deep space outposts. A brief exchange with Admiral Anderson established that Shepard would be allowed to resume command of the Normandy if the reaper invasion he was predicting did take place. And indeed it did, with suitably impressive pyrotechnics."

 Don't know if this helps, but seems like more info than we saw in the demo.

(Spolier potential reply ignore if don't want to read his link)


No, how is that going to make us feel better? Said what we already saw in the demo. Described Mars mission, implied was no choice given to player where to go or that can do anything other than being forced where to go, just like the dialogue is 85% shown in demo introduction to be canon and generic "their" Shepard not our own. Once there it's again all shooting, all killing, lack of hacking or mini games and hardly any EXP plus mentions no dialogue input until end. Sounds like GoW, all action none of the bringing back roleplaying from ME1 and cut from ME2 they promised us.


(End of potential spoiler reply)


If that review is anything to go by Bioware have sunk to levels far lower than I thought possible as far as making games I wish to buy. It would confirm three of my five total concerns and if the retail game matches what is implied in that article then ME3 is my last Bioware game as DA2 did to any further interest in that franchise. I will find out for myself come release day but everything I hear/read of late makes me more and more concerned. Now maybe the writer and article skims over vast amounts or is playing in Action mode not RPG, but if go by what he describes it is depressing.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 22 février 2012 - 02:58 .

[CaptainZaysh]

Farbautisonn wrote...

-Then it would make sense to ask why Udina canned him, why he is now back in uniform and how long he has been back.

No, Farb, it really wouldn't.  In a new game of ME3, with no import history of choosing Anderson or Udina, it would be utterly nonsensical to prioritise the audience's attention on Anderson's relationship with Udina over Anderson's relationship with Shepard.

[AkiKishi]

Lets have a movie instead.

 

This is the thing I refered to earlire in case anyone is wondering.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 22 février 2012 - 12:10 .

[Farbautisonn]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

No, Farb, it really wouldn't.  In a new game of ME3, with no import history of choosing Anderson or Udina, it would be utterly nonsensical to prioritise the audience's attention on Anderson's relationship with Udina over Anderson's relationship with Shepard.

-Im not the tabula rasa player. Im the guy who played since ME1. I have a history with Anderson. He is my friend. If I did not ask or did not wonder about any of the above he might as well have been a complete **** stranger to me. Not someone who as the demo puts it "saves his ass".

[Farbautisonn]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Lets have a movie instead.

 

This is the thing I refered to earlire in case anyone is wondering.

-Looks like a Michael Jackson lookalike convention.

[CaptainZaysh]

Farbautisonn wrote...

-Im not the tabula rasa player. Im the guy who played since ME1. I have a history with Anderson. He is my friend. If I did not ask or did not wonder about any of the above he might as well have been a complete **** stranger to me. Not someone who as the demo puts it "saves his ass".

So import your save.  Complaining that the demo is not recognising the history you built up with Anderson is just indicative of this whole whinefest.

[Gerther]

No Captain, people have good reason to believe that their unique histories are going to be wiped away in favor of a few generic paths.

[AkiKishi]

Farbautisonn wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Lets have a movie instead.

 

This is the thing I refered to earlire in case anyone is wondering.

-Looks like a Michael Jackson lookalike convention.

I just can't get my head around the overall drop in quality it's right across the board. It's a freakin flagship title. Maybe I've been spoiled by FFXIII-2 but even Amular looked better.

Did a bunch of people leave or get transfered to TOR while I was away?

[Squallypo]

whos hepler ? i heard some stuff related to her and some fynn or flyn guy from bioware over gamespot forum

[Dragoonlordz]

Squallypo wrote...

whos hepler ? i heard some stuff related to her and some fynn or flyn guy from bioware over gamespot forum

Wrong thread. One you want is here to talk about that.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 22 février 2012 - 02:13 .

[phimseto]

Holy crap, that Guardian piece is distressing. Seems like EA's kind of reviewer though: was nonplussed about the lack of story depth (euphemistically calling the opening "stage setting", seemingly with a straight face). Post earth is a trip to mars which is overloaded with combat and negligible on story. He thinks the series' only flaw was vehicle exploration and that multiplayer is a great and exciting addition. Gag.

Not a lot to be encouraged about...

Modifié par phimseto, 22 février 2012 - 03:30 .

[Dean_the_Young]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

My point was, the trial could be a very good opportunity to familiarize the new player with these very terms and the general situation, as part of easing them in the game setting. And so i had to ask if that's something that simply didn't occur to you, or if you omitted that possibility on purpose.

It did indeed occur to me.  Ultimately, though, let me ask you this: what purpose would it actually serve to give a new player this kind of in-depth history lesson?  Is it really important at that stage in the script that they understand what a batarian is?  Or is that kind of exposition better served up later in the story, right before Shepard has to interact with some actual batarians?

I'd suggest that it could start by throwing Shepard into a less-than-heroic light.

For new players, that makes Shepard more ambiguous: an accussed genocidal war criminal who claims (and seems to be vindicated) that mass-murder was 'necessary.' For older players, it could offer a rare chance at giving them a different perspective on their own character.


As much as many people would resent having their Shepard's benevolence impugned, a you-can't-win trial would make a great and rare chance to cast doubt on any of Shepard's Big Choices. Though casting suspicion on idealism is hardly a Bioware strength, both Renegade and Paragon choices could be challenged on reasonable grounds, challenging convictions and prior rationals.


Take the Collector Base decision, for example, and tie it into the events of Arrival.

For Renegades: 'Commander Shepard not only worked with Cerberus, but gave these pro-Human terrorists advanced Collector technology. Who can be surprised at what happened next, when a Batarian solar system was destroyed? Like calls to like.'


For Paragons: 'Commander Shepard claimed to work with Cerberus against these 'Reapers', just as she claimed the threat of the Reapers necessitated genocide. But when it came down to it, she chose to destroy advanced Collector technology that could have been used against this threat she claims to be so dire. The inconsistency is obvious.'

[someguy1231]

I still don't believe that the trial was cut because Bioware was interested in new players. The trial would've been the perfect way to familiarize the new players with the ME universe. Nor do I believe it was cut for the "pew pew" crowd - they're not THAT impatient. Why, then, was it removed? I just can't think of any logical reason for it. I know Bioware's made alot of bad decisions in the past, but at least the reasons for them were often clear. This time, though, I have no idea why they would make a decision like this.