2915 réponses à ce sujet

[Sargerus]

Hunter of Legends wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

JeffZero wrote...

Omg. XIII-2 over BW... Ouch. My. Brain. Sorry. Just ouch.

It all depends on what you like, Jeff. if you're there for story, heavy story, then FF XIII-2 is the way to go.

Don't get me wrong, I hated the ending (and I hate my profile pic, too) but it's still better than what BW has. You can't tell as effective a story with blank characters as with defined ones, that's fact.

As far as I'm concerned all FF after 7 are trash.

You dare say that FF X is trash??  Get him boys! 

[JeffZero]

I'll take blank over bad. But hey, good for you that you don't think they're bad.

[Squallypo]

Hunter of Legends wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

JeffZero wrote...

Omg. XIII-2 over BW... Ouch. My. Brain. Sorry. Just ouch.

It all depends on what you like, Jeff. if you're there for story, heavy story, then FF XIII-2 is the way to go.

Don't get me wrong, I hated the ending (and I hate my profile pic, too) but it's still better than what BW has. You can't tell as effective a story with blank characters as with defined ones, that's fact.

As far as I'm concerned all FF after 7 are trash.

oh no here we go with the ff7 overrateness, ff8 thinks your wrong and please lets not make this a FF argument , when all is about MASS EFFECT 3 here that is going into a suicide Mission < see what i did there 

Modifié par Squallypo, 13 février 2012 - 06:20 .

[azerSheppard]

The ME2 intro blew me away. If the Demo is the actual intro for the game, i'd be feeling really underwhelmed. I know they attempted to start of serene(somewhat) and then drive up the action, but they should have had a more powerfull intro. I don't care for the auto-response of the intro, since ME2 did the same.

[incinerator950]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

JeffZero wrote...

Omg. XIII-2 over BW... Ouch. My. Brain. Sorry. Just ouch.

It all depends on what you like, Jeff. if you're there for story, heavy story, then FF XIII-2 is the way to go.

Don't get me wrong, I hated the ending (and I hate my profile pic, too) but it's still better than what BW has. You can't tell as effective a story with blank characters as with defined ones, that's fact.

Of course.  I just personally thought the execution of said story in FF started lacking more when they bring in VAs.  Especially since the translation VA's are terrible.

[Hunter of Legends]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...
 the abysmal storytelling of ME.

...

What?

[Cloaking_Thane]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

FlyinElk212 wrote...

Not necessarily. The trial wouldn't be about the reality of the Reapers--it would be about Shepard trying to justify his actions in essentially killing 300,000+ Batarians, as well as his past alignment with Cerberus. It would've been a captivating way for players to review their past game's actions while showing Shepard in a position of vulnerability, which is INCREDIBLE considering there are so few moments we get in Mass Effect to really flesh out Shepard's character...

A trial scene would be totally superfluous to the plot.  Firstly, there is no need to justify why Shep took such outrageous actions when the answer - The Reapers - literally smash in through the windows in the next scene.  The audience is not retarded.

Secondly, players who have carried out the activities you describe may have their own motivations for their actions that BioWare couldn't capture in three dialogue options.  Both the issues you bring up have been argued in intricate detail over literally hundreds of forum pages.  If BW went the route you're describing I guarantee the whinefest in here OMG BIOWARE MY SHEP WOULD NEVAR SAY THAT would be visible from space.

Thirdly, players who have not played the prior game would have absolutely no idea what the correct answer was to the questions.  "Commander Shepard.  You stand accused of killing ten thousand Yagshoms in the Kazam Subsector.  And you gave the Ring of Jenzara to the Telurbians!  What the hell were you thinking?"

Paragon- "I don't know."
Neutral- "I don't know."
Renegade- "I don't know."

A trial scene is a bad idea for so many reasons.  It would add unnecessary flab right to the top of the story.  It would be immediately invalidated by what came after (the Reaper invasion) anyway, so what's the point of including it?  It would limit the existing fanbase's justification for their most morally complex decisions to one of three one-liner replies, and it would puzzle the hell out of those new to the series.  Any way I game it out in my head, a trial scene is a shockingly bad idea.

This is a pretty good point, I think a little more justification that "this is war people die" would have helped, or more than a little passing reference.

Heck even a 2 minute prelude like Varric in DA2..........Shepard states his case...........committee "Very well, you are grounded until further notice.........."

All this leading up to the intro with VEGA.

I think this could have worked no doubt

[Hunter of Legends]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

...

What?

...sigh. I'd love to discuss, but this isn't the place, like with FF.

What's to discuss.

If it's one things EVERYONE agrees it's that Bioware tells go stories.

[TheRevanchist]

Hunter of Legends wrote...

kylecouch wrote...
 I am exreamly disapointed, it makes Arrival totaly meaningless amoung a great many other things.

Why is everyone saying this?

How the hell does a quick and to the point intro (which is longer than any other intro in the series*) destroy what happened at Arhotaht?





*Technically ME1's intro is right before the tital drop. Eden Prime is just the tutorial level...ME3's extended "intro" is FAR longer than ME1's or ME2's.

The reasons have been repeated to death like a whole MLB team beating a dead horse with their baseball bats in this thread already. needless to say I disagree with your personal impressions of what you think. however I will not attack or attempt counter argument...because like I said...it's far too late to rave about it. On top of that...you are entitled to your opinions about what make a great game just as I am.

As far as the intro's being longer...I can't say i haven't played it yet, have to wait until tommarrow. But I would not consider that tiny little paragraph in the opening moments of ME before the title drop the "intro". I would consider everything until arriaveing at the Citadel the intro. As for ME2's...I would consider the intro ends after Freedom's Progress. Again...thats my personal opinion of the "intro" of both games.  

[Prom001]

kylecouch wrote...

"JRPG's are not real RPG's" -Bioware

"We want CoDs audience" -Bioware

"Whenever you press a button, something awsome has to happen, button = awsome!" -Bioware

... 

I read it ilike it.


It's like aliens invaded Earth and Obama asked Hitler (Lazarus Project, of course) to unite every country against the threat. Oh god.

I want to see this movie'!

[bluewolv1970]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

Shadowrun1177 wrote...

Except they apparently already passed judgment on Shepard at this point. The conversation between Shepard and Anderson hints that Shepard got off light only being grounded while anyone else would of been court maritaled and more I paraphrased down what Anderson said.

He does say that. He says "any other soldier would have been Court-martialed". A Court-martial is a trial. So he's saying there was not a trial. And then we are told that there was one, by a Bioware staffer on the BSN. There is a disconnect here somewhere.

which is obviously a misleading statement

[Hunter of Legends]

kylecouch wrote...


The reasons have been repeated to death like a whole MLB team beating a dead horse with their baseball bats in this thread already.

No they haven't.

There are ZERO reasons why this intro invalidates what happened in Arrival.

[TheRevanchist]

Hunter of Legends wrote...

kylecouch wrote...


The reasons have been repeated to death like a whole MLB team beating a dead horse with their baseball bats in this thread already.

No they haven't.

There are ZERO reasons why this intro invalidates what happened in Arrival.

The fact you fail to reconize their legetimacy is not my concern.

[TheRevanchist]

Prom001 wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

"JRPG's are not real RPG's" -Bioware

"We want CoDs audience" -Bioware

"Whenever you press a button, something awsome has to happen, button = awsome!" -Bioware

... 

I read it ilike it.


It's like aliens invaded Earth and Obama asked Hitler (Lazarus Project, of course) to unite every country against the threat. Oh god.

I want to see this movie'!

Eaither excellenet trollage...or something else I cannot describe.

[Hunter of Legends]

kylecouch wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

kylecouch wrote...


The reasons have been repeated to death like a whole MLB team beating a dead horse with their baseball bats in this thread already.

No they haven't.

There are ZERO reasons why this intro invalidates what happened in Arrival.

The fact you fail to reconize their legetimacy is not my concern.

Because NOTHING HAS BEEN SAID.

Arrival happened, Shepard has been punished for his actions.

We're gonna see the repercussions of Arrival when we get to the citidel.

[Nashiktal]

FSOAH wrote...

The intro is extremely lame. The trial being cut to make space for more pow-pow-pow is ridiculous.

I mean, introducing James Vega like that is so f*cking typical "New Bioware."

It feels very wierd having james introduced as if the player knows who he is. Even in ME1, where we had the possibility of reading the novel about anderson and saren, we are still given proper introductions.

[Prom001]

kylecouch wrote...

Prom001 wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

"JRPG's are not real RPG's" -Bioware

"We want CoDs audience" -Bioware

"Whenever you press a button, something awsome has to happen, button = awsome!" -Bioware

... 

I read it ilike it.


It's like aliens invaded Earth and Obama asked Hitler (Lazarus Project, of course) to unite every country against the threat. Oh god.

I want to see this movie'!

Eaither excellenet trollage...or something else I cannot describe.

my bad
I wanted to say I like what you said

AND

I wanted to say that i liked that other idea for a movie

[Cloaking_Thane]

Nashiktal wrote...

FSOAH wrote...

The intro is extremely lame. The trial being cut to make space for more pow-pow-pow is ridiculous.

I mean, introducing James Vega like that is so f*cking typical "New Bioware."

It feels very wierd having james introduced as if the player knows who he is. Even in ME1, where we had the possibility of reading the novel about anderson and saren, we are still given proper introductions.

and Vega didn't know that Ashley/Kaiden and Shep were together and the main protagonists in ME1 which is what roughly only 3 years ago.

Pretty sure all military people would at least know that.

[izmirtheastarach]

Nashiktal wrote...

FSOAH wrote...

The intro is extremely lame. The trial being cut to make space for more pow-pow-pow is ridiculous.

I mean, introducing James Vega like that is so f*cking typical "New Bioware."

It feels very wierd having james introduced as if the player knows who he is. Even in ME1, where we had the possibility of reading the novel about anderson and saren, we are still given proper introductions.

There were multiple people who would give you background on Anderson, before you even met him, and after. Vega is just there. Now maybe there will be exposition later. We can only hope.

[phimseto]

The trial could have accomplished a lot of things:

- Set the stage politically based on past decisions. Remember at the beginning of Star Trek IV where the Klingon ambassador moped that there could be no peace while Kirk lived? A Batarian delegate could have delivered a similar message. Likewise, other races could have chimed in based on things you did or didn't do.

- Introduced new characters (whether formally or in media res, like Vega) and returning characters. This is done a bit in the demo from what I've seen, but it would have been nice to have it in a more formal setting.

- Allowed your character to make some statements whose repercussions would have echoed throughout the game.

For a game that looks like it is going to be moving from one noisy, combat-driven area to another (sigh), it would have been nice to have one quiet (if tense and dramatic) moment to start things off, especially as a summation of choices made and "the story so far..."

[FlyinElk212]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

FlyinElk212 wrote...

Not necessarily. The trial wouldn't be about the reality of the Reapers--it would be about Shepard trying to justify his actions in essentially killing 300,000+ Batarians, as well as his past alignment with Cerberus. It would've been a captivating way for players to review their past game's actions while showing Shepard in a position of vulnerability, which is INCREDIBLE considering there are so few moments we get in Mass Effect to really flesh out Shepard's character...

A trial scene would be totally superfluous to the plot.  Firstly, there is no need to justify why Shep took such outrageous actions when the answer - The Reapers - literally smash in through the windows in the next scene.  The audience is not retarded.

Normally I don't respond to posts like this, but since it seems like you're one of the more intelligent members of this community I'm going to make an exception. DEBATE ON!

The problem in stating the trial's superfluity is that it assumes that the Reapers smash through the windows in the first few minutes of the game...in an entirely separate opening scenario. If the game were to create a different opening including a trial, the Reapers smashing through the window would be written to come at a later point.

CaptainZaysh wrote...
Secondly, players who have carried out the activities you describe may have their own motivations for their actions that BioWare couldn't capture in three dialogue options.  Both the issues you bring up have been argued in intricate detail over literally hundreds of forum pages.  If BW went the route you're describing I guarantee the whinefest in here OMG BIOWARE MY SHEP WOULD NEVAR SAY THAT would be visible from space.

While you're right that fanboys would complain due to limited options, giving options on Shepard's personality is certainly better than not having any. As I recall, these forums seemed to openly accept Lair of the Shadow Broker's attempts at Shepard personality exposition, despite the "Howya doin Shep?" choice only giving 3 options. Besides, doesn't EVERY one of Bioware's moves create fanboy whinefests? 

CaptainZaysh wrote...
Thirdly, players who have not played the prior game would have absolutely no idea what the correct answer was to the questions.  "Commander Shepard.  You stand accused of killing ten thousand Yagshoms in the Kazam Subsector.  And you gave the Ring of Jenzara to the Telurbians!  What the hell were you thinking?"

Paragon- "I don't know."
Neutral- "I don't know."
Renegade- "I don't know."

There is no "correct answer" to any choice in Mass Effect. There are certainly choices that provide better outcomes, but the game can be beat regardless of any answer you give to any choice. The beauty of the choices in the trial would be that new players wouldn't HAVE to consider what a "right choice" would be-- they only need to assume a personality for Shepard. In my previous examples:

"According to reports, you handed over suspicious Collector Technology over to Cerberus while working with them after successfully passing through the Omega 4 Relay. Is this true?"

Paragon- "We can't let human lives go to waste"
Neutral- "It was Reaper Tech"
Renegade- "I don't work for Cerberus"

The new player here may not know what Collector Tech, Cerberus, or the Omega 4 Relay is, but it doesn't make the decision defunct. What the new player is more concerned with is, "HOW does my Shepard react to this accusation? Is he going to remember his humanity, and make a plea to have them remember their humanity as well (Paragon option), or is he going to be blunt and in-your-face about his assertiveness (Renegade option)?"

Every single option in the trial could and should reflect this ideal: how does Shepard react to "X" accusation? For veteran players, the decision will be based off of, "Well, what did I feel when I was making that decision?" For new players, the decision will be based off of, "How do I want Shepard to react to the accusations made in this trial?"

You're right in saying that the trial adds content to the opening, and certainly doesn't immediately get into the action. What a trial DOES do though, which the current opening cannot claim to do, is harkin back to veteran player's decisions and memories, while providing ample building blocks for new players to flesh out how exactly they want to role-play their Shepard. 

Modifié par FlyinElk212, 13 février 2012 - 06:59 .

[Saint Op]

Cloaking_Thane wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

FlyinElk212 wrote...

Not necessarily. The trial wouldn't be about the reality of the Reapers--it would be about Shepard trying to justify his actions in essentially killing 300,000+ Batarians, as well as his past alignment with Cerberus. It would've been a captivating way for players to review their past game's actions while showing Shepard in a position of vulnerability, which is INCREDIBLE considering there are so few moments we get in Mass Effect to really flesh out Shepard's character...

A trial scene would be totally superfluous to the plot.  Firstly, there is no need to justify why Shep took such outrageous actions when the answer - The Reapers - literally smash in through the windows in the next scene.  The audience is not retarded.

Secondly, players who have carried out the activities you describe may have their own motivations for their actions that BioWare couldn't capture in three dialogue options.  Both the issues you bring up have been argued in intricate detail over literally hundreds of forum pages.  If BW went the route you're describing I guarantee the whinefest in here OMG BIOWARE MY SHEP WOULD NEVAR SAY THAT would be visible from space.

Thirdly, players who have not played the prior game would have absolutely no idea what the correct answer was to the questions.  "Commander Shepard.  You stand accused of killing ten thousand Yagshoms in the Kazam Subsector.  And you gave the Ring of Jenzara to the Telurbians!  What the hell were you thinking?"

Paragon- "I don't know."
Neutral- "I don't know."
Renegade- "I don't know."

A trial scene is a bad idea for so many reasons.  It would add unnecessary flab right to the top of the story.  It would be immediately invalidated by what came after (the Reaper invasion) anyway, so what's the point of including it?  It would limit the existing fanbase's justification for their most morally complex decisions to one of three one-liner replies, and it would puzzle the hell out of those new to the series.  Any way I game it out in my head, a trial scene is a shockingly bad idea.

This is a pretty good point, I think a little more justification that "this is war people die" would have helped, or more than a little passing reference.

Heck even a 2 minute prelude like Varric in DA2..........Shepard states his case...........committee "Very well, you are grounded until further notice.........."

All this leading up to the intro with VEGA.

I think this could have worked no doubt

I agree with Captain...
Batarians would mean nothing to a new player Cerberus would mean nothing. If they say I loved Cerberus and then start fighting them the second or so mission in the game they would be like damn I picked the wrong thing...

Plus they stated previously that the choosing in the "comic" didn't work because people had no subtext. If you played the previous games you know what happened and why you did it. If there was a trial and Shep didn't say evey line just how "you" wanted then "you" would complane that it isn't how your Shep would handle it.

As for the Vega thing it's just like how your body got with the collectors. You have to read the prequil comic. This is not unpresidented in games, or many types of media for that matter.