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So, what happened to the trial?


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#1176
Immortanius

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TMA LIVE wrote...

I don't buy this whole "New players won't get it or makes it too long for them" argument.

The game is suppose to be "different" based off your choices.

They could simply have the intro as is for new players, while importers who played Arrival get a trial scene. Or more references to Shepard going on trial.


This is exactly my school of thought. It makes perfect sense going at it via this route. The demo could be specifically oriented at the new/non-imported Shepard, while those who import a completed save file from ME1&ME2 get some sort of trial scene that recaps ME1 & ME2.

Besides, they've said there will be a recap done differently than a comic. How else could a recap be done? It just makes sense that it would be done in some sort of trial form. We'll see.

#1177
izmirtheastarach

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Dragoonlordz wrote...

They should of just kept trial for RPG and Story modes and dropped it for Action mode (imho).


Fine with me.

#1178
txgoldrush

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TMA LIVE wrote...

I don't buy this whole "New players won't get it or makes it too long for them" argument.

The game is suppose to be "different" based off your choices.

They could simply have the intro as is for new players, while importers who played Arrival get a trial scene. Or more references to Shepard going on trial.

This isn't impossibly or too expensive. You could only convince me it is if not that many players played Arrival.

As for "The Arrival being stopped as canon", you could always say Hackett sent someone else who did the job for you for those who didn't do it.


Arrival would probably be mentioned in the intro if a save with it was imported, it won't if not....its that simple and fair.

#1179
TMA LIVE

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txgoldrush wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

I don't buy this whole "New players won't get it or makes it too long for them" argument.

The game is suppose to be "different" based off your choices.

They could simply have the intro as is for new players, while importers who played Arrival get a trial scene. Or more references to Shepard going on trial.

This isn't impossibly or too expensive. You could only convince me it is if not that many players played Arrival.

As for "The Arrival being stopped as canon", you could always say Hackett sent someone else who did the job for you for those who didn't do it.


Arrival would probably be mentioned in the intro if a save with it was imported, it won't if not....its that simple and fair.


But it is mentioned (if the leaked beta lines are still used). It's just that there's nothing gained from it.  There's nothing setup for what might have happened. No mention of a trial, or being on trial, or going on trial. Just "You did something bad, Shepard!" from Anderson.

#1180
Alex Arterius

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Gemini1179 wrote...

I'm absolutely hoping that those who import games will get a bit of a special 'prologue' before the opening as seen in the demo. Something to explain how the connection from this game to the last feels so much less organic than the connection from ME2 to ME1.

But I'm not holding my breath.


Yesss

The linking between the two gams is very, very poor

At the end of ME2 you're commander of the Normandy, present and accounted for.

At the start of ME3 you're in some tiny grey room, stipped of duty and bezzies with some random ape like man who enters the room <_< 2 minutes later the Reaper arrive

What... Wait... When did all this happen again?

#1181
Alex Arterius

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izmirtheastarach wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

They should of just kept trial for RPG and Story modes and dropped it for Action mode (imho).


Fine with me.


It would just be far too complicated for the people who pick action mode to understand no doubt ;)

Or at least that's what Bioware is kinda inferring. And beacuse of this we all now lose out :(

#1182
txgoldrush

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TMA LIVE wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

I don't buy this whole "New players won't get it or makes it too long for them" argument.

The game is suppose to be "different" based off your choices.

They could simply have the intro as is for new players, while importers who played Arrival get a trial scene. Or more references to Shepard going on trial.

This isn't impossibly or too expensive. You could only convince me it is if not that many players played Arrival.

As for "The Arrival being stopped as canon", you could always say Hackett sent someone else who did the job for you for those who didn't do it.


Arrival would probably be mentioned in the intro if a save with it was imported, it won't if not....its that simple and fair.


But it is mentioned (if the leaked beta lines are still used). It's just that there's nothing gained from it.  There's nothing setup for what might have happened. No mention of a trial, or being on trial, or going on trial. Just "You did something bad, Shepard!" from Anderson.


And maybe the trial was cut...and Shep was put under review for a future trial, which is far more subtle. A trial in the beginning and the reapers attacking by surpirse seems forced and contrived. Its better the way it is now.

#1183
izmirtheastarach

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txgoldrush wrote...

And maybe the trial was cut...and Shep was put under review for a future trial, which is far more subtle. A trial in the beginning and the reapers attacking by surpirse seems forced and contrived. Its better the way it is now.


Yes. We all understand that this is your opinion. Having it is fine. Most people seem to disagree with you, which is also fine.

#1184
txgoldrush

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Alex Arterius wrote...

Gemini1179 wrote...

I'm absolutely hoping that those who import games will get a bit of a special 'prologue' before the opening as seen in the demo. Something to explain how the connection from this game to the last feels so much less organic than the connection from ME2 to ME1.

But I'm not holding my breath.


Yesss

The linking between the two gams is very, very poor

At the end of ME2 you're commander of the Normandy, present and accounted for.

At the start of ME3 you're in some tiny grey room, stipped of duty and bezzies with some random ape like man who enters the room <_< 2 minutes later the Reaper arrive

What... Wait... When did all this happen again?


Lets make our standards consistant...

In Baldur's Gate, you go from being triumphant over your defeat of Saaverok at the end of the first game, to being in Irenicus's prision at the very beginning of BGII...and no one complains.

#1185
TheRevanchist

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kylecouch wrote...

JSwisha wrote...

Squallypo wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

Exactly...and just as a said earlier on this page...the fact that we have to basiclly invent our own conclusions means that Bioware failed their job as the author.


and that they have failed even more for not bothering to let us know how things really are, we not asking for specific plot lines but i mean seriously... this has gone overboard. nothing makes sense 


As long as it makes dollars, it doesn't have to make sense, right?



Apparently not...

I re-draw attention to this as an example of what Bioware has done with this.


Just re-posting this again to enforce the brillient compareson between these two products.

#1186
TheRevanchist

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izmirtheastarach wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

And maybe the trial was cut...and Shep was put under review for a future trial, which is far more subtle. A trial in the beginning and the reapers attacking by surpirse seems forced and contrived. Its better the way it is now.


Yes. We all understand that this is your opinion. Having it is fine. Most people seem to disagree with you, which is also fine.




indeed however I am ignoreing this person...as they seem to be another typical person passing off their opinion as the "correct" point of view.

#1187
tishyw

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txgoldrush wrote...

Wow, fan whining and stupidity has just gone into overdrive....

The intro was fine, and fans are not listening when Bioware says there will be more dialogue choices in the actual game.

When has there been a rule where A) The character has to be properly introduced the first time you see him or her or B) if the character knows, the player should know.

Wait there isn't........do Witcher 2 players complain about not really knowing Vernon or Ves in the first 5 minutes of the game? No. They are introduced now and fleshed out later. And it beats the amnesia stupidity of the first game. Same thing with Vega, the player may not know him but Shep does, which is fine, as long as they develop and establish him later. Hell, its BETTER they do it later, as you know, a sparring scene establishment can do more for the story than a forced establishment during a more urgent situation, like Shep going to the admirality board at the beginning.

The trial simply does not work, its a pacing killer, and thats probably why it was cut We already had a trial in the series, two actually, there doesn't need to be another one...

As for Bioware playing to the CoD crowd by getting to the "splosions", oh wait, unlike it most games, the games "splosions" have substance to them, like people dying, like the child in the beginning. Nevermind the fact that each "spolsion" in the opening means more lives lost. This is another idiot fanboy rant.

And really, you fans should learn to play by ITS RULES and not YOUR RULES. No wonder why people hate DAII's story, because they treat it like a traditional RPG story when its not. It CAN have the opening it did. Why? Because its a frame story..it wasn't Hawke's story, its Varric's version of Hawke's story. While there are problems with DAII's story, mostly in mage class and mage sided games, the story has far more substance and originality than the hiughly overrated and cliched DAO.

And really those pining for old Bioware, to hell with that old tired recycled formula of the same old plots and character cliches, and to hell with all those one dimensional personalities. Lets try new ways of storytelling and characterization and have more subtle three dimensional characters.


Actually the trial could have been done really well if it was intercut with scenes of the Reapers approaching Earth.
A cut scene of the Reapers attacking Mars followed by peoples com-units starting going off and people in the court starting to mutter and get agitated.  Then a cut scene of the Reapers attacking the Moon bases, and more agitation in the court.  All this overlaid by Anderson and/or the VS defending Shepard's actions and the 'judge' or whoever trying to maintain order.
Finally we could get scenes of various Iconic buildings on Earth being destroyed by the Reapers followed by everyone in the court (except the main players obviously) getting messages and panicking, THEN the Reapers can attack the trial.

#1188
Ashathor

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Terror_K wrote...
"snip"


I sometimes disagree with you and when I first started reading the forum I thought you were just being a fanatical RPG lover who hates everything that isn't one and calls them idiots just because of different tastes. The main reason for that was because of similar people sharing your opinions, but after reading several of your posts including this one I can pretty much agree with you. Though I'm sure I'll still disagree with you on certain things.

I liked ME1 and liked ME2 even more so, I also don't hate DA2 despite DA1 having better design overall and all the hate it's received. However I understand what you're talking about and, if they are trully doing what is to be believed with this third installment, then that is really sad. I'm an FPS player at heart but I also love several other genres like RPGs, RTS, etc. When I found out about ME I was really happy to find a Bioware RPG with FPS combat. However I don't want to see the combat to become the sole focus of the game. This doesn't mean I want a great story but crap combat, I just think you need to make sure that both the combat AND the story are great and not sacrifice anything just to, what some here have called, "pander to the GoW crowd."

I really do love almost everything Bioware has done, but if they continue to go down this road of not trying to do what their good at and just do what they think the majority like and/or cut-corners (DA2 and from what I've seen SWTOR)  then It'll be quite a sad day to see them lose their touch. DA2 they wanted to get a more action feel for faster pace combat to appeal to people who found DA1s combat dull but sacrificed the story elements that were key to the first. In SWTOR they wanted too badly to compete with WoW and as such sacrificed too much of the story elements so it felt like none of your decisions really mattered in the long term scheme of things. if ME3 doesn't hold up then it may be similar to the others because they  tried too hard to make TPS/FPS players to play ME and as such sacrificed too much of the story, or possibly because they cut-corners because of other reasons.

P.S sorry for all the text, got carried away I guess. :blush:

On a side but related note the main reason for all the text is if they ignored an opportunity to add a possibly great starting scene, maybe via the trial, and are limiting our decisions to truly play out Shepards story and persona then that is what will make this a decent/good game, but not a great game. 

#1189
izmirtheastarach

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txgoldrush wrote...

Lets make our standards consistant...

In Baldur's Gate, you go from being triumphant over your defeat of Saaverok at the end of the first game, to being in Irenicus's prision at the very beginning of BGII...and no one complains.


Every time you invoke some other game to support your arguments, you lose me completely. We're not talking about other games, we are talking about this game. I have no idea whether your anecdotal memeories of the reaction to some other game are correct. They could be completely wrong, for all I know.

How about we stick to the game we are actually discussing.

#1190
Alex Arterius

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txgoldrush wrote...

Alex Arterius wrote...

Gemini1179 wrote...

I'm absolutely hoping that those who import games will get a bit of a special 'prologue' before the opening as seen in the demo. Something to explain how the connection from this game to the last feels so much less organic than the connection from ME2 to ME1.

But I'm not holding my breath.


Yesss

The linking between the two gams is very, very poor

At the end of ME2 you're commander of the Normandy, present and accounted for.

At the start of ME3 you're in some tiny grey room, stipped of duty and bezzies with some random ape like man who enters the room <_< 2 minutes later the Reaper arrive

What... Wait... When did all this happen again?


Lets make our standards consistant...

In Baldur's Gate, you go from being triumphant over your defeat of Saaverok at the end of the first game, to being in Irenicus's prision at the very beginning of BGII...and no one complains.


Probably beacuse I haven't played Baldurs Gate

#1191
tangalin

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txgoldrush wrote...

Alex Arterius wrote...

Gemini1179 wrote...

I'm absolutely hoping that those who import games will get a bit of a special 'prologue' before the opening as seen in the demo. Something to explain how the connection from this game to the last feels so much less organic than the connection from ME2 to ME1.

But I'm not holding my breath.


Yesss

The linking between the two gams is very, very poor

At the end of ME2 you're commander of the Normandy, present and accounted for.

At the start of ME3 you're in some tiny grey room, stipped of duty and bezzies with some random ape like man who enters the room <_< 2 minutes later the Reaper arrive

What... Wait... When did all this happen again?


Lets make our standards consistant...

In Baldur's Gate, you go from being triumphant over your defeat of Saaverok at the end of the first game, to being in Irenicus's prision at the very beginning of BGII...and no one complains.


It also explains that you were captured while traveling by mysterious figures...

#1192
txgoldrush

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izmirtheastarach wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Lets make our standards consistant...

In Baldur's Gate, you go from being triumphant over your defeat of Saaverok at the end of the first game, to being in Irenicus's prision at the very beginning of BGII...and no one complains.


Every time you invoke some other game to support your arguments, you lose me completely. We're not talking about other games, we are talking about this game. I have no idea whether your anecdotal memeories of the reaction to some other game are correct. They could be completely wrong, for all I know.

How about we stick to the game we are actually discussing.


No because..

A) Bioware did Baldur's Gate
B) its a continous series just like Mass Effect
C) and no one complains about the gap in those games

welcome to double standards...if Bioware can do it with BG, that should be able to do it with ME.

#1193
tangalin

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txgoldrush wrote...

izmirtheastarach wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Lets make our standards consistant...

In Baldur's Gate, you go from being triumphant over your defeat of Saaverok at the end of the first game, to being in Irenicus's prision at the very beginning of BGII...and no one complains.


Every time you invoke some other game to support your arguments, you lose me completely. We're not talking about other games, we are talking about this game. I have no idea whether your anecdotal memeories of the reaction to some other game are correct. They could be completely wrong, for all I know.

How about we stick to the game we are actually discussing.


No because..

A) Bioware did Baldur's Gate
B) its a continous series just like Mass Effect
C) and no one complains about the gap in those games

welcome to double standards...if Bioware can do it with BG, that should be able to do it with ME.


There is no gap in BG. You beat Sarevok, and you begin traveling the realms. While traveling you are captured.

#1194
Dragoonlordz

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txgoldrush wrote...

1. Oh wait, no they didn't. There was no real complaint about how the new characters were introduced and in fact Vernon Roche, Ves, and Iorveth, as well as Letho were universially praised..

2. However a trial breaks pacing and will seem forced through lack of evidence. Also the trial would have been meaningless if the Reapers attacked while they were having it. Also, why rehash the smae stuff over again when an intro comic may do the same, beating a dead horse. Also the first two games had trials, no need to recycle this.

3. If people hated it so much, than why is ME2 more ciritically acclaimed and far more awarded than the first game? Not every RPG has to be traditional. Its common sense, its the vocal minority that whines about ME2, not the majority who actually enjoyed the game. I would take a corridor shooter (which ME1 kind of was as well, in a clunky way) over derp derp dice roll combat that tries to be both a traditional RPG and a shooter while failing at both while having hundereds of vendor trash and lack of balance.

4. Except for the first Act and the mage endgame, the story in DAII was fine. It was the fans that were the problem. It was far more complex than Standrard Role Playing Scenario One which the first game was and DAO was far from told well. The gameplay and world building, it was bad, but the writing mostly was great. And the frame story was far from tacky.

5. Nevermind this experimentalism made ME2 their most critically acclaimed game of all time and their most awarded. Nevermind they were criticized harshly when DAO came out of following the same formula over and over again. See Hellforge Bioware Cliche Chart. Oh, nevermind that in 1985, originality and experiementalism sparked the entire genre with Ultima IV, which helped influence Bioware to make games. Hell I take the character quests and three dimenisonal characters of "New Bioware" over the one dimensional talking codex entries of "Old Bioware".


1. Yes they did, as said your selective memory does you a disservice. There was many who moaned about how they did not know anything about Triss unless played first or what Witchers were or why was with Hensalt and much, much more. It happened and they did, your pretending did not does not change this. I know for fact they did because I got into arguments with a lot of those moaning at time about lack of information and lore being explained at start of the game. Sorry to burst your bubble princess.

2. Subjective, personal preference. It would have added to the quality of the game and immersion to have, it adds to the character building and responding to actions of your past with new input coming from people have not met being the Alliance generals who are overseeing the trial. You would have gained new perspective and expanded on content from your past actions. A deep and rich story delves deeper into your actions and persona created, whether through past or current actions and your hissy fit and attacking those people who wished to take that route makes you look bad.

3. As was BF3 and CoD embedded with acclaim after acclaim but that does not mean I wish to see Bioware make a Battlefart 4 or Modern Wankfest 4. People have developers catering to that crowd. Shooters are dime a dozen and marketplace is flooded with linear corridor shooters, that is not what attracted most people to Bioware where it was actually the RPG element that brought them in for a great many of us fans.

4. Your delusion is worrying, young padawan.

5. You proclaim the superiority of ME2 over ME1 because of critical acclaim and praise but then bash DAO which had a million times more of that than DA2 while at same time saying DA2 was superior... Your logic defies belief. Their little experiments to the detriment of fans approval was the downfall of DA2 and your praising it like as you call them "fanboys" doesn't change this.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 14 février 2012 - 04:12 .


#1195
Iakus

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jeweledleah wrote...

didn't Silverman say a while ago (like one of the earlier interviews months and months ago) that they removed the trial because giving all these choices to new players was confusing and for old players it would be more of a reminder of the choices, then actual trial?

it would have been great if trial stayed in. but the most I'm hoping for is the outline of major choices, when picking import save.


I'd definitely be interested in seeing this quote.

Not because I doubt it was said, but because of all the possible reasons to cut it, that would be one of the dumber ones.

#1196
Il Divo

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txgoldrush wrote...

No because..

A) Bioware did Baldur's Gate
B) its a continous series just like Mass Effect
C) and no one complains about the gap in those games

welcome to double standards...if Bioware can do it with BG, that should be able to do it with ME.


You've gotta be kidding me. Posted Image

#1197
izmirtheastarach

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txgoldrush wrote...

No because..

A) Bioware did Baldur's Gate
B) its a continous series just like Mass Effect
C) and no one complains about the gap in those games

welcome to double standards...if Bioware can do it with BG, that should be able to do it with ME.


All right, carry on. You lose your argument completely, but whatever. I mean, obviuosly every single person in the world both played all those games, and payed close attention to the reaction, just like you did. So clearly your references will make sense to other people, right?

No double standard for me, because I have no idea what you are talking about.

#1198
txgoldrush

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tishyw wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Wow, fan whining and stupidity has just gone into overdrive....

The intro was fine, and fans are not listening when Bioware says there will be more dialogue choices in the actual game.

When has there been a rule where A) The character has to be properly introduced the first time you see him or her or B) if the character knows, the player should know.

Wait there isn't........do Witcher 2 players complain about not really knowing Vernon or Ves in the first 5 minutes of the game? No. They are introduced now and fleshed out later. And it beats the amnesia stupidity of the first game. Same thing with Vega, the player may not know him but Shep does, which is fine, as long as they develop and establish him later. Hell, its BETTER they do it later, as you know, a sparring scene establishment can do more for the story than a forced establishment during a more urgent situation, like Shep going to the admirality board at the beginning.

The trial simply does not work, its a pacing killer, and thats probably why it was cut We already had a trial in the series, two actually, there doesn't need to be another one...

As for Bioware playing to the CoD crowd by getting to the "splosions", oh wait, unlike it most games, the games "splosions" have substance to them, like people dying, like the child in the beginning. Nevermind the fact that each "spolsion" in the opening means more lives lost. This is another idiot fanboy rant.

And really, you fans should learn to play by ITS RULES and not YOUR RULES. No wonder why people hate DAII's story, because they treat it like a traditional RPG story when its not. It CAN have the opening it did. Why? Because its a frame story..it wasn't Hawke's story, its Varric's version of Hawke's story. While there are problems with DAII's story, mostly in mage class and mage sided games, the story has far more substance and originality than the hiughly overrated and cliched DAO.

And really those pining for old Bioware, to hell with that old tired recycled formula of the same old plots and character cliches, and to hell with all those one dimensional personalities. Lets try new ways of storytelling and characterization and have more subtle three dimensional characters.


Actually the trial could have been done really well if it was intercut with scenes of the Reapers approaching Earth.
A cut scene of the Reapers attacking Mars followed by peoples com-units starting going off and people in the court starting to mutter and get agitated.  Then a cut scene of the Reapers attacking the Moon bases, and more agitation in the court.  All this overlaid by Anderson and/or the VS defending Shepard's actions and the 'judge' or whoever trying to maintain order.
Finally we could get scenes of various Iconic buildings on Earth being destroyed by the Reapers followed by everyone in the court (except the main players obviously) getting messages and panicking, THEN the Reapers can attack the trial.


No, it would not have worked...another pacing killer.

We do no  need a long intro scene, just get to the game quickly and thats what ME3's intro is designed to do.

A trial would be redudant especially with an intro comic or system for new players.

#1199
Il Divo

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iakus wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

didn't Silverman say a while ago (like one of the earlier interviews months and months ago) that they removed the trial because giving all these choices to new players was confusing and for old players it would be more of a reminder of the choices, then actual trial?

it would have been great if trial stayed in. but the most I'm hoping for is the outline of major choices, when picking import save.


I'd definitely be interested in seeing this quote.

Not because I doubt it was said, but because of all the possible reasons to cut it, that would be one of the dumber ones.


Bonus points if you can come up with a way of having a court trial without referencing past events. Posted Image

#1200
izmirtheastarach

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txgoldrush wrote...

No, it would not have worked...another pacing killer.

We do no  need a long intro scene, just get to the game quickly and thats what ME3's intro is designed to do.

A trial would be redudant especially with an intro comic or system for new players.


Is there even the slighest chance that you could...maybe..go away? So that those of us who actually want to discuss this topic can do so? I assume the answer is no, but there's no harm in asking, right? Or is crapping on other people's opinions really that important to you?

Modifié par izmirtheastarach, 14 février 2012 - 04:10 .