2915 réponses à ce sujet

[izmirtheastarach]

Il Divo wrote...

izmirtheastarach wrote...

Perhaps a valid port here is the "combat" is not synonymous with "gameplay".

That's pretty much how I see it. I spent about half my time playing KotOR in dialogue. Am I really supposed to believe that all that time I wasn't really playing the game? Sounds a bit absurd.

I am constantly reloading to experience dialogue. The combat I just breeze right through. Sure, it's fun, but if the game had no story, I would not be there for the combat. It's not the other way around, certainly not if you are are an RPG fan and not a raging Bro.

Modifié par izmirtheastarach, 14 février 2012 - 05:30 .

[Il Divo]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

I am constantly reloading to experience dialogue. The combat I just breeze right through. Sure, it's fun, but if the game had no story, I would not be there for the combat. It's not the other way around, certainly not if you are are an RPG fan and not a raging Bro.

Agreed. The interactive nature of the medium is what keeps me coming back to RPGs (and video games in general). Usually, I prefer it when the game goes out of its way to explain to me why it's important that I'm killing things. Motivation is everything.

[Dragoonlordz]

Il Divo wrote...

izmirtheastarach wrote...

Perhaps a valid port here is the "combat" is not synonymous with "gameplay".

That's pretty much how I see it. I spent about half my time playing KotOR in dialogue. Am I really supposed to believe that all that time I wasn't really playing the game? Sounds a bit absurd.

Combat has zero to do with story at all (imho). It is a way of getting from A to B and gaining experience along the way and nothing more. Taking out a Cerberus trooper with a headshot is not part of the story, it is not spoken about in the game outside the realms of "nice shot commander" quips. How you killed Saren again no effect on story or plot, it did not matter how he moved, what tactics he used or what weapon you shot him with.  You could of have a button pushed that dropped piano on his head from above with no actual combat and story would progress the same way.

As I said, I have never and will never buy a game based on combat. As goes for most people who are fans of Bioware. They come to Bioware for story, choice and consequences and branching of plot. Combat has little to do with it for most of us. The demo showed only the latter and very little of the former. 

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 14 février 2012 - 05:37 .

[TheRevanchist]

Il Divo wrote...

izmirtheastarach wrote...

I am constantly reloading to experience dialogue. The combat I just breeze right through. Sure, it's fun, but if the game had no story, I would not be there for the combat. It's not the other way around, certainly not if you are are an RPG fan and not a raging Bro.

Agreed. The interactive nature of the medium is what keeps me coming back to RPGs (and video games in general). Usually, I prefer it when the game goes out of its way to explain to me why it's important that I'm killing things. Motivation is everything.

Indeed...thats my primary beef with most MMO's...theres no reason beyond "get to max lvl"

[txgoldrush]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

And why can I not bring other games that start fast into this discussion? Is their some rule you made up?

I am basically contradicting everyone who thinks that an RPG can't get into an action right away and if ti does, its style over substance. It may take using OTHER EXAMPLES to do this.

You are the very definition of the BDF. No matter what someone's problem is, you have an answer. Everyone who has any issue with a Bioware game is wrong.

Look, other games do it! So that makes it good, right? You keep falling back on that utterly ridiculous argument.

And if I was BDF, why am I attacking DAO?...why don't I like NWN? must not be a very good BDF trooper. I don't like everything Bioware does, in fact I think DA series has yet to be great and not really up to Bioware caliber.

I have a problem with whiners, who freak out over everything...for example, people are freaking out over autodialogue without looking at the complete picture, such as ME3 having almost as much dialogue as ME1 and ME2 combined....thats either a lot of auto dialogue or maybe perhaps, mos likely, it is not.

No, when other classic games do it, it proves that the tactic can work.

[Dragoonlordz]

txgoldrush wrote...

izmirtheastarach wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

And why can I not bring other games that start fast into this discussion? Is their some rule you made up?

I am basically contradicting everyone who thinks that an RPG can't get into an action right away and if ti does, its style over substance. It may take using OTHER EXAMPLES to do this.

You are the very definition of the BDF. No matter what someone's problem is, you have an answer. Everyone who has any issue with a Bioware game is wrong.

Look, other games do it! So that makes it good, right? You keep falling back on that utterly ridiculous argument.

And if I was BDF, why am I attacking DAO?...why don't I like NWN? must not be a very good BDF trooper. I don't like everything Bioware does, in fact I think DA series has yet to be great and not really up to Bioware caliber.

I have a problem with whiners, who freak out over everything...for example, people are freaking out over autodialogue without looking at the complete picture, such as ME3 having almost as much dialogue as ME1 and ME2 combined....thats either a lot of auto dialogue or maybe perhaps, mos likely, it is not.

No, when other classic games do it, it proves that the tactic can work.

And yet your whining more than anyone else in here. Only difference is your whining about other people instead of product for the most part. I am still awaiting an answer on question I asked you earlier. I'm guessing you are trying to avoid answering it because it paints you in bad light if continue the way you have been.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 14 février 2012 - 05:44 .

[TheRevanchist]

ironic really...there seem to be ppl whining...about ppl whining...I find that humorus.

[izmirtheastarach]

txgoldrush wrote...

And if I was BDF, why am I attacking DAO?...why don't I like NWN? must not be a very good BDF trooper. I don't like everything Bioware does, in fact I think DA series has yet to be great and not really up to Bioware caliber.

So..it's okay for you to complain, but not for others? Okay. You're not a whiner right, it's everyone else. Sure.

There is no one in this thread who is whining more then you.

Modifié par izmirtheastarach, 14 février 2012 - 05:40 .

[RSX Titan]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

izmirtheastarach wrote...

Perhaps a valid port here is the "combat" is not synonymous with "gameplay".

That's pretty much how I see it. I spent about half my time playing KotOR in dialogue. Am I really supposed to believe that all that time I wasn't really playing the game? Sounds a bit absurd.

I am constantly reloading to experience dialogue. The combat I just breeze right through. Sure, it's fun, but if the game had no story, I would not be there for the combat. It's not the other way around, certainly not if you are are an RPG fan and not a raging Bro.

I love both types of games. Sometimes I just like to zone out and play Halo. Other times I decide I'm going to fire up ME1 and play through as a Renegade Adept. I never say to myself  "I'm in the mood to kill Geth and/or Collectors" and launch ME. 

[txgoldrush]

bluewolv1970 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

RSX Titan wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

RSX Titan wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

Another thing that bothers me...ppl seem to think the dialogue, characterization, choosing your responses. That all of these things and more are not "the game." that all of that is "pointless crap" that keeps us from "the game" aka the pews pews....so I think we can safely ignore this crowd...as it's obvious what they think "the game" is.

This is what Bioware wants. Even though the fans wanted an RPG with Shooter elements, we got a wannabe shooter with RPG elements instead. What they fail to realize is that no one, at least that I've ever met, plays ME for the combat. If I want action, I play Halo or COD.

And why should the ME series have clunky combat? Why not have a great story with great action. And really, the time of RPG combat sucking in the West is over. Not only ME is proving action combat works in RPGs, games like Kingdoms of Amalur, The Witcher 2, Deus Ex Human Revolution, and Dark Souls prove this as well.

It was hilarious watching Alpha Protocol flop because they made the exact same mistakes ME1 did with its combat (but much worse).

You are missing my point. Its not that the ME games have  to have clunky combat, its that Bioware's core competency is something different. Combat in ME2 was light years better than in ME1 but it was nowhere near Halo, COD, or Gears. Its inevitable that other areas of a game will suffer when you spend the majority of your time on combat, especially when its something your studio isn't known for.

And you are missing the point...as a game, the game must have good gameplay. And really sacrificing too much for story is a bad thing. If the game is not fun, so much for playing through the story.

except that Bioware's sucessful past history literally contradicts this theory...

So Baldur's Gate didn't have good gamplay? KOTOR? Oh wait, they actualy did. They did along with story.

[izmirtheastarach]

RSX Titan wrote...
I love both types of games. Sometimes I just like to zone out and play Halo. Other times I decide I'm going to fire up ME1 and play through as a Renegade Adept. I never say to myself  "I'm in the mood to kill Geth and/or Collectors" and launch ME. 

I have no problem with that. I call a person like you.....a "GAMER". I really enjoyed Bulletstorm last year. Fun games are fun.

[txgoldrush]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

izmirtheastarach wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

And why can I not bring other games that start fast into this discussion? Is their some rule you made up?

I am basically contradicting everyone who thinks that an RPG can't get into an action right away and if ti does, its style over substance. It may take using OTHER EXAMPLES to do this.

You are the very definition of the BDF. No matter what someone's problem is, you have an answer. Everyone who has any issue with a Bioware game is wrong.

Look, other games do it! So that makes it good, right? You keep falling back on that utterly ridiculous argument.

And if I was BDF, why am I attacking DAO?...why don't I like NWN? must not be a very good BDF trooper. I don't like everything Bioware does, in fact I think DA series has yet to be great and not really up to Bioware caliber.

I have a problem with whiners, who freak out over everything...for example, people are freaking out over autodialogue without looking at the complete picture, such as ME3 having almost as much dialogue as ME1 and ME2 combined....thats either a lot of auto dialogue or maybe perhaps, mos likely, it is not.

No, when other classic games do it, it proves that the tactic can work.

And yet your whining more than anyone else in here. Only difference is your whining about other people instead of product for the most part. I am still awaiting an answer on question I asked you earlier. I'm guessing you are trying to aviod answering it because it paints you in bad light if continue the way you have been.

let me ask you this...will you be okay if there wasn't a trial sequence? I am not the one whining about it, I am just annoyed at people claiming thatt he exclusion is the sign of it going downhill.

In fact I didn't even say I am opposed to the trial, if it was executed correctly...however, instead of whining about its exclusion I rationalize why its not there and then....let me see....wait on my judgement after I played throught the game...I guess people don't get that concept.

[RSX Titan]

txgoldrush wrote...

bluewolv1970 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

RSX Titan wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

RSX Titan wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

Another thing that bothers me...ppl seem to think the dialogue, characterization, choosing your responses. That all of these things and more are not "the game." that all of that is "pointless crap" that keeps us from "the game" aka the pews pews....so I think we can safely ignore this crowd...as it's obvious what they think "the game" is.

This is what Bioware wants. Even though the fans wanted an RPG with Shooter elements, we got a wannabe shooter with RPG elements instead. What they fail to realize is that no one, at least that I've ever met, plays ME for the combat. If I want action, I play Halo or COD.

And why should the ME series have clunky combat? Why not have a great story with great action. And really, the time of RPG combat sucking in the West is over. Not only ME is proving action combat works in RPGs, games like Kingdoms of Amalur, The Witcher 2, Deus Ex Human Revolution, and Dark Souls prove this as well.

It was hilarious watching Alpha Protocol flop because they made the exact same mistakes ME1 did with its combat (but much worse).

You are missing my point. Its not that the ME games have  to have clunky combat, its that Bioware's core competency is something different. Combat in ME2 was light years better than in ME1 but it was nowhere near Halo, COD, or Gears. Its inevitable that other areas of a game will suffer when you spend the majority of your time on combat, especially when its something your studio isn't known for.

And you are missing the point...as a game, the game must have good gameplay. And really sacrificing too much for story is a bad thing. If the game is not fun, so much for playing through the story.

except that Bioware's sucessful past history literally contradicts this theory...

So Baldur's Gate didn't have good gamplay? KOTOR? Oh wait, they actualy did. They did along with story.

You are confusing gameplay with combat. They are not one and the same.

[izmirtheastarach]

txgoldrush wrote...

let me ask you this...will you be okay if there wasn't a trial sequence? I am not the one whining about it, I am just annoyed at people claiming thatt he exclusion is the sign of it going downhill.

In fact I didn't even say I am opposed to the trial, if it was executed correctly...however, instead of whining about its exclusion I rationalize why its not there and then....let me see....wait on my judgement after I played throught the game...I guess people don't get that concept.

I think the majority of us are fine if there isn't a trial sequence. Just disappointed. And the people you are talking about are never going to be convinced by you. You are banging your head against a wall here.

[Il Divo]

txgoldrush wrote...


So Baldur's Gate didn't have good gamplay? KOTOR? Oh wait, they actualy did. They did along with story.

In the case of Baldur's Gate 1, I'd say it had neither. That's the wonderful thing about subjectivity. However, I also recognize that there is a group of gamers who would say the opposite. For myself, I dislike DnD 2.0 and Vancian Casting. Combine that with non-existent companion interactions and a scavenger hunt main plot and there wasn't much left for me to go on.

[txgoldrush]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

And if I was BDF, why am I attacking DAO?...why don't I like NWN? must not be a very good BDF trooper. I don't like everything Bioware does, in fact I think DA series has yet to be great and not really up to Bioware caliber.

So..it's okay for you to complain, but not for others? Okay. You're not a whiner right, it's everyone else. Sure.

There is no one in this thread who is whining more then you.

I am not the one going all gloom and dread over one little thing....thats the difference.

[Dragoonlordz]

txgoldrush wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

izmirtheastarach wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

And why can I not bring other games that start fast into this discussion? Is their some rule you made up?

I am basically contradicting everyone who thinks that an RPG can't get into an action right away and if ti does, its style over substance. It may take using OTHER EXAMPLES to do this.

You are the very definition of the BDF. No matter what someone's problem is, you have an answer. Everyone who has any issue with a Bioware game is wrong.

Look, other games do it! So that makes it good, right? You keep falling back on that utterly ridiculous argument.

And if I was BDF, why am I attacking DAO?...why don't I like NWN? must not be a very good BDF trooper. I don't like everything Bioware does, in fact I think DA series has yet to be great and not really up to Bioware caliber.

I have a problem with whiners, who freak out over everything...for example, people are freaking out over autodialogue without looking at the complete picture, such as ME3 having almost as much dialogue as ME1 and ME2 combined....thats either a lot of auto dialogue or maybe perhaps, mos likely, it is not.

No, when other classic games do it, it proves that the tactic can work.

And yet your whining more than anyone else in here. Only difference is your whining about other people instead of product for the most part. I am still awaiting an answer on question I asked you earlier. I'm guessing you are trying to aviod answering it because it paints you in bad light if continue the way you have been.

let me ask you this...will you be okay if there wasn't a trial sequence? I am not the one whining about it, I am just annoyed at people claiming thatt he exclusion is the sign of it going downhill.

In fact I didn't even say I am opposed to the trial, if it was executed correctly...however, instead of whining about its exclusion I rationalize why its not there and then....let me see....wait on my judgement after I played throught the game...I guess people don't get that concept.

It is disappointing to us, what part of that did you miss. We already answered your question from page 1 to 52. Your the one coming in here guns blazing firing at everyone else because you did not like the answer you already received that it for us was disappointing that they skipped something that would of enhanced our enjoyment of the game.

I am more surprised after 52 pages you have still not noticed the answer to your question being answered from page 1 onwards over and over. But you clearly are blinded by immature rage towards that answer shown by you attacking everyone else over it. 

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 14 février 2012 - 05:50 .

[izmirtheastarach]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

It is disappointing to us, what part of that did you miss. We already answered your question from page 1 to 52. Your the one coming in here guns blazing firing at everyone else because you did not like the answer you already received that it for us was disappointing that they skipped something that would of enhanced our enjoyment of the game.

Yeah, I'm still baffled as to who the whiners are. Some people just come in expecting that all these threads are full of trolls, and not just people discussing a game they are interested in.

Modifié par izmirtheastarach, 14 février 2012 - 05:52 .

[Il Divo]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Combat has zero to do with story at all (imho). It is a way of getting from A to B and gaining experience along the way and nothing more. Taking out a Cerberus trooper with a headshot is not part of the story, it is not spoken about in the game outside the realms of "nice shot commander" quips. How you killed Saren again no effect on story or plot, it did not matter how he moved, what tactics he used or what weapon you shot him with.  You could of have a button pushed that dropped piano on his head from above with no actual combat and story would progress the same way.

Agreed. With regard to Saren, I remember convincing him to blow his brains out far more than I remember the  final boss fight.

[StephanieBengal]

It's pretty amazing how strongly people feel about something that was/suppose to be at the beginning of the game.

I'm not knocking anyone, just crazy how big of a deal this is or isn't to the masses.

[RSX Titan]

Il Divo wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Combat has zero to do with story at all (imho). It is a way of getting from A to B and gaining experience along the way and nothing more. Taking out a Cerberus trooper with a headshot is not part of the story, it is not spoken about in the game outside the realms of "nice shot commander" quips. How you killed Saren again no effect on story or plot, it did not matter how he moved, what tactics he used or what weapon you shot him with.  You could of have a button pushed that dropped piano on his head from above with no actual combat and story would progress the same way.

Agreed. With regard to Saren, I remember convincing him to blow his brains out far more than I remember the  final boss fight.

The real question is if ME1 had action mode, would you have been presented with that scenario?

[txgoldrush]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

It is disappointing to us, what part of that did you miss. We already answered your question from page 1 to 52. Your the one coming in here guns blazing firing at everyone else because you did not like the answer you already received that it for us was disappointing that they skipped something that would of enhanced our enjoyment of the game.

Yeah, I'm still baffled as to who the whiners are. Some people just come in expecting that all these threads are full of trolls, and not just people discussing a game they are interested in.

the ones keeping insisting that Bioware made the bad choice instead of waiting and seeing...the ones threatening to cancel their preorder....the ones pining for th eold Bioware...etc.

Modifié par txgoldrush, 14 février 2012 - 05:55 .

[AlanC9]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

I think the majority of us are fine if there isn't a trial sequence. Just disappointed.

I know I should be following this better, but why are people disappointed? I haven't played the demo yet myself, but I always thought that the trial was going to be one of those regrettable necessities forced on the game because Bio was trying to attract new players. A way to do a recap in-game, but not important for us long-term fans who alreadyknow what our Shepards did and didn't do.

I guess I was wrong about that, eh?

[izmirtheastarach]

txgoldrush wrote...

izmirtheastarach wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

It is disappointing to us, what part of that did you miss. We already answered your question from page 1 to 52. Your the one coming in here guns blazing firing at everyone else because you did not like the answer you already received that it for us was disappointing that they skipped something that would of enhanced our enjoyment of the game.

Yeah, I'm still baffled as to who the whiners are. Some people just come in expecting that all these threads are full of trolls, and not just people discussing a game they are interested in.

the ones keeping insisting that Bioware made the bad choice instead of waiting and seeing...the ones threatening to cancel their preorder....the ones pining for th eold Bioware...etc.

Who are they, though. I'm not saying that. I don't think they made a bad choice. I'm not passing any judgement at all. I was looking forward to something being in the game. It's not going to be. I'm disappointed. That's it.

I have two pre-orders. I'm only cancelling one of them. I plan to play the demo on my PC tomorrow.

Why are you talking to me and others as though we are these mythical trolls you seem to be mad at?

[izmirtheastarach]

AlanC9 wrote...

I know I should be following this better, but why are people disappointed? I haven't played the demo yet myself, but I always thought that the trial was going to be one of those regrettable necessities forced on the game because Bio was trying to attract new players. A way to do a recap in-game, but not important for us long-term fans who alreadyknow what our Shepards did and didn't do.

I guess I was wrong about that, eh?

Some of us thought a trial was a neat idea. We had hoped to be able to defend Shepard's actions.