2915 réponses à ce sujet

[DJBare]

Just so that everyone is clear just how disconnected the beginning is, play the demo and watch the path Anderson and Shepard take, big hint over door "Courtroom A"; then the screen fades and we are suddenly in what is supposedly a control centre, looks to me like that added NPC's and objects like monitors at the last moment.

[Massefeckt]

someguy1231 wrote...

I don't buy the argument that the trial was cut to cater to new players. Actually, I've always thought the trial was to help new players get acquainted with the ME universe to begin with. As other posters have said, the intro is incomprehensible to both old players and new players. Let's not jump to conclusions here. Not everything Bioware does in ME3 is for the benefit of new players. In fact, some of my gripes are about how Bioware is catering too much to certain types of old-school fans.

I also don't buy the argument that it was cut for CoD/Halo/GoW players who just want to get to the shooting. If you've ever played those games, you'll find that those too have several cutscenes and breaks in combat. Fans of those games aren't as impatient as many people here seem to believe.

Good post. A trial would have been a great way for new players to be introduced to the story of whats gone before and for older players to defend their actions in Arrival which has now become useless DLC.

Klijpope wrote...

Whilst speculating over what the final
ME2 DLC, one of the ideas was ending up under arrest for working with
terrorists and that a trial would be a cool way of starting ME3.

But
then I thought about it. A long trial sequence is absolutely no way to
start a story centred on action. Does a Bond film start with a lot of
talking? Nope - we have an action scene that often has no relevance to
the plot before we get to the talky stuff.

If there was a long
trial, no one but players of 1 and 2 would continue. ME isn't Heavy Rain
- they can't get away with having a shower and cleaning your teeth. And
this isn't pandering to the mythical CoDder-base, it is just basic
story telling.

However, replaying the demo, I'm getting a vague
impression the dialogue might be a bit out of context, and that's why it
feels weird, like we're not getting all the lines. So there may well be
a stronger reference to any kind of hearing in the actual game. I'm
reserving judgement.

Bond films are desingned to be stand alone films ME is a trilogy. Also I think this is the divide of the forum I'm in the camp of ME being about the story with some action parts, you see it as an action game with a little bit of story here and there. You must have hated the Citadel and city sections of ME1.

[android654]

kylecouch wrote...

Honestly...having read every book but Deception...every comic but Invasion. Playing ME1 over 40 times...ME2 over 20 times...and after having a total mental encyclopidia of ME knowledge....i can safely say...the more you know the less this intro makes sense. Because you see just how many MORE errors there are.

I haven't played nearly as much as you have, but you make very good points. The writing is just disjointed from the first 2 acts in this epic. It's just plain bad. I suppose they wanted to do an action like intro like from ME2, but they forget the opening to ME2 has an actual impact on the story.

[AlanC9]

kalle90 wrote...
Who is James Vega? Nowhere in ME1 or 2 I heard of him.

Right, because in ME1 and 2 we've already met every single person Shepard knows. In the entire galaxy.

Sure, they could have done a scene where Shepard and Vega meet up again after a while, and then made Vega talk about the good old days so the player knows who Vega is. Or they can have that conversation later, on the Normandy.

Doing it this way is a little unusual for RPGs, mostly because it's rare for an RPG protagonist to have a whole lot of backstory that hasn't been explicitly played out. In DAO you play the origins, in NWN2, FO 1 and 2, and BG you explore the player's small-town home in the early part of the game. KotOR, obviously, doesn't have this problem. In PS:T the PC's memory is wiped so he doesn't recognize anyone from his previous incarnations.

About the closest parallel I can think of is Bao-Dur from KotOR 2.

Modifié par AlanC9, 15 février 2012 - 11:33 .

[TomekN86]

The problem with the beginning of the demo (and thus virtually of the full version of ME3) is that after promising to provide a cohesive and seamless passage from ME2 to the 3rd instalment (mainly via paid "bridging" DLC) we get intro in which all is said and done. A trial would at least give an illusion that the gamers haven't been left out of the loop...

[TheRevanchist]

android654 wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

Honestly...having read every book but Deception...every comic but Invasion. Playing ME1 over 40 times...ME2 over 20 times...and after having a total mental encyclopidia of ME knowledge....i can safely say...the more you know the less this intro makes sense. Because you see just how many MORE errors there are.

I haven't played nearly as much as you have, but you make very good points. The writing is just disjointed from the first 2 acts in this epic. It's just plain bad. I suppose they wanted to do an action like intro like from ME2, but they forget the opening to ME2 has an actual impact on the story.

Like for example...Anderson having ANY position in the Alliance Military at all...Retribution made it awfully clear he resigns from his duties and effectly becomes an Alliance citizen. So why in the hell is he suddenly an Admiral again? Also...the glareingly obvious "Their about to destroy the Dreadnaught!" line...god thats difficult to listen to...such an obvious mistake. Seconly...Shepard suddenly has proof of Reapers? and everyone automaticlly believes hes telling the truth and act like they knew all along? Last we the players knew they had no god damn idea and was in complete denial about this theory. The comic that introduces Vega does not in any way prove WHY Shepard and Vega are so damn chumy...he says nothing to him in the final page. For all we know our Shepard hated that guys guts. But for some magic reason their like BFF's for reasons unknown to us. The fact that the Reapers knocked out Luna Base...desimated the ENTIRE Alliance Fleet and landed in pretty much every city around the world in like 0.5 seconds breaks even the most forgiving imagination. As well of course all the reasons that have been mentioned here...everything is out of context and incomprehensable. We have no f***ing idea what is happening in this patheticly short scene. The fact that civilian TV Reporters KNOWS ABOUT THIS BEFORE ALLIANCE ADMIRALS! seriously...are you kidding me? I mean honestly I just can't see who they thought the target audience was suppose to be when they made this. But since Mac Walters favorite movie is The Expendables it leaves me with concerns...honestly.  

[2484Stryker]

Question: if someone were to self-impose a ME3 news blackout, and then picked up the game on launch date, how on earth did the developers expect someone like that to connect ME2 to ME3? Remember that at the end of ME2, you're still on a Cerberus ship cruising through the galaxy. Yes, you know you would be recalled to earth eventually (assuming you played Arrival), but nowhere in the demo intro in ME3 did I see any indication that you have been recalled.

Obviously it's possible that the intro in the final game is longer and sets up the game better..I'm hoping that this is the case.

[lumen11]

Maybe someone brought this up already, and correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they say there would be different/extra bits and pieces of dialogue if you import a game.

So for example. In the demo Anderson reminds you that you would get a court-martial for all the **** you pulled. In an imported game, however, he might specifically mention the Batarians.

[2484Stryker]

lumen11 wrote...

Maybe someone brought this up already, and correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they say there would be different/extra bits and pieces of dialogue if you import a game.

So for example. In the demo Anderson reminds you that you would get a court-martial for all the **** you pulled. In an imported game, however, he might specifically mention the Batarians.

I hope so.  Otherwise, I'd have trouble figuring out why I went from flying a Cerberus frigate to a discharged commander on Earth...and what happened to my ship?!  lol

And that bit about taking down the dreadnaught - I thought it was weird but I didn't know enough about ME to be sure.  I just thought that that ship the Reaper destroyed was a bit small...

[TomekN86]

lumen11 wrote...

Maybe someone brought this up already, and correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they say there would be different/extra bits and pieces of dialogue if you import a game.

So for example. In the demo Anderson reminds you that you would get a court-martial for all the **** you pulled. In an imported game, however, he might specifically mention the Batarians.

That is not he point. An added line here and there will not change the fact that so much (apparently) had happened "off camera": Shepard demoted and detained, Normandy is back under Alliance etc. It is like starting ME2 right from the moment Shepard wakes up in the Lazarus Project Base. So what if Jacob later tells him/her what has happened to the Normandy and the crew if the player didn't expereienced it?

[2484Stryker]

AlanC9 wrote...

kalle90 wrote...
Who is James Vega? Nowhere in ME1 or 2 I heard of him.

Right, because in ME1 and 2 we've already met every single person Shepard knows. In the entire galaxy.

Well obviously no, but remember that in the beginning of ME2, we were introduced to Miranda, and that Shepard clearly had no idea who she and Jacob were when he woke up.   Slightly different case in the demo.

In the demo cutscene, Shepard acts like he clearly knows who Vega is, but we as the audience (unless you read about Vega or watched the youtube videos) don't.

Unless, of course, we as fans are responsible for checking out all the videos released by Bioware on youtube and also reading the wiki.

[android654]

kylecouch wrote...

android654 wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

Honestly...having read every book but Deception...every comic but Invasion. Playing ME1 over 40 times...ME2 over 20 times...and after having a total mental encyclopidia of ME knowledge....i can safely say...the more you know the less this intro makes sense. Because you see just how many MORE errors there are.

I haven't played nearly as much as you have, but you make very good points. The writing is just disjointed from the first 2 acts in this epic. It's just plain bad. I suppose they wanted to do an action like intro like from ME2, but they forget the opening to ME2 has an actual impact on the story.

Like for example...Anderson having ANY position in the Alliance Military at all...Retribution made it awfully clear he resigns from his duties and effectly becomes an Alliance citizen. So why in the hell is he suddenly an Admiral again? Also...the glareingly obvious "Their about to destroy the Dreadnaught!" line...god thats difficult to listen to...such an obvious mistake. Seconly...Shepard suddenly has proof of Reapers? and everyone automaticlly believes hes telling the truth and act like they knew all along? Last we the players knew they had no god damn idea and was in complete denial about this theory. The comic that introduces Vega does not in any way prove WHY Shepard and Vega are so damn chumy...he says nothing to him in the final page. For all we know our Shepard hated that guys guts. But for some magic reason their like BFF's for reasons unknown to us. The fact that the Reapers knocked out Luna Base...desimated the ENTIRE Alliance Fleet and landed in pretty much every city around the world in like 0.5 seconds breaks even the most forgiving imagination. As well of course all the reasons that have been mentioned here...everything is out of context and incomprehensable. We have no f***ing idea what is happening in this patheticly short scene. The fact that civilian TV Reporters KNOWS ABOUT THIS BEFORE ALLIANCE ADMIRALS! seriously...are you kidding me? I mean honestly I just can't see who they thought the target audience was suppose to be when they made this. But since Mac Walters favorite movie is The Expendables it leaves me with concerns...honestly.  

Wait. Walters' favorite movie is The Expendables? That doesn't bode well for the direction of this chapter.

You are right hough, the opening chapter is jammed with inconsistencies and no care for the personality of the Shepard. This might change once we're able to import, but there's nothing to suggest that yet.

[2484Stryker]

TomekN86 wrote...

That is not he point. An added line here and there will not change the fact that so much (apparently) had happened "off camera": Shepard demoted and detained, Normandy is back under Alliance etc. It is like starting ME2 right from the moment Shepard wakes up in the Lazarus Project Base. So what if Jacob later tells him/her what has happened to the Normandy and the crew if the player didn't expereienced it?

+1

[AlanC9]

2484Stryker wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

kalle90 wrote...
Who is James Vega? Nowhere in ME1 or 2 I heard of him.

Right, because in ME1 and 2 we've already met every single person Shepard knows. In the entire galaxy.

Well obviously no, but remember that in the beginning of ME2, we were introduced to Miranda, and that Shepard clearly had no idea who she and Jacob were when he woke up.   Slightly different case in the demo.

In the demo cutscene, Shepard acts like he clearly knows who Vega is, but we as the audience (unless you read about Vega or watched the youtube videos) don't.

Right. Shepard knows him, we don't. I just don't see why this is a problem. The first time I have Shepard talk to Vega on the Normandy I'll get all the backstory. The couple scenes we get with Vega give all the context I'll need until that point.

[2484Stryker]

AlanC9 wrote...
Right. Shepard knows him, we don't. I just don't see why this is a problem. The first time I have Shepard talk to Vega on the Normandy I'll get all the backstory. The couple scenes we get with Vega give all the context I'll need until that point.

But you're playing as Shepard.  This is a RPG, after all, right?  Or I guess not anymore? 

To me, throwing me into a room with a NPC that my PC knows but I don't separates me from my PC.  But that's just me. 

Assuming that the finished intro is exactly the same as the demo one, I personally would have preferred Vega enter the room as a complete stranger, and then Shepard gradually identifies him as James Vega.

[Rudy Lis]

DJBare wrote...

"And you will see, there is no spoon"

Yes, there is only fork. And that fork has three pronges (tines) - one is broken, another is lost and last is bended.

kylecouch wrote...

Honestly...having read every book but Deception...every comic but Invasion. Playing ME1 over 40 times...ME2 over 20 times...and after having a total mental encyclopidia of ME knowledge....i can safely say...the more you know the less this intro makes sense. Because you see just how many MORE errors there are.

And I thought I played much! That's compliment, btw.
Although I haven't read any books or comic, intro did not make any sense to me. Of course, maybe there will be some epic ME2-alike intro, sort of "previously in ME", with brief introduction of our Shepards' (I hope so, hate that DA2 pwetty-pwetty ignowance of DAO) actions in previous games, ending with Arrival and telling us about events between Arrival and ME3, because I find wasting 6 month on some "trial&travel" rather "strange", not to say something unmentionable I could be banned for.

2484Stryker wrote...

But that's just me.

No, not just you.
I agree with you here. Shepard is not just playing character, he is our character. We build him (so to speak). He is not Geralt or Riddick - characters with pre-existing and pre-defined history (to some extent).
Not sure about "dropping ball" (don't get meaning of this phrase, rugby?), but breaking "immersion" or "player-character" unity is definitely here.
Yes, they could give us real "flashback" later, like MoH beginning, sort of "6 month earlier" but without it - I'm with 2484Stryker. No matter how stupid dialogues with Nihlus/Anderson about protheans and Williams about geth were looking, they gave us some sort of info to work with. I'd prefer ordinary "guidebook", though. Codex do that but to lesser extent. And after you open all entries. 

Modifié par Rudy Lis, 16 février 2012 - 12:24 .

[Klijpope]

Massefeckt wrote...

Klijpope wrote...

snip

Bond films are desingned to be stand alone films ME is a trilogy. Also I think this is the divide of the forum I'm in the camp of ME being about the story with some action parts, you see it as an action game with a little bit of story here and there. You must have hated the Citadel and city sections of ME1.

I REALLY, REALLY do not see ME as an action game with a bit of story. (And I cannot emphasise that enough). It is all about the story for me. But, just as the story provides context for the gameplay, so the playing bit provides context for the plot. While I would happily play a game that is just about interactive dialogue (why the hunt for Morinth is one of my fave bits of ME2), I'm not sure it would sell enough to justify the wages of the VAs it would need to work.

This is not really about action over story. While I would love to play through a meaty trial sequence, it is no way at all to begin a game. Especially not a game about a galactic fight to the death. No film could do it either - it would kill the narrative in its tracks.

ME is top notch space opera - when does that ever, ever start with a lengthy talky bit, especially an exposition laden trial? The closest that thing that comes to it in the movies is, um, The Phantom Menace, and even that gets going after a while. Even Star Trek 1 started with klingons shooting torpedoes.

In an action narrative (film or game) the storyteller has to earn the attention of the audience before they can slow things down to the talky character building stuff. 

There is another factor too. There's an achievement for some kind of diplomatic negotiation - it would not do to essentially repeat a format later in the game, and maybe this negotiation thing is 'better' than the trial.

[RowanCF]

Which page is the Bioware post?

[TheRevanchist]

Rudy Lis wrote...

DJBare wrote...

"And you will see, there is no spoon"

Yes, there is only fork. And that fork has three pronges (tines) - one is broken, another is lost and last is bended.

kylecouch wrote...

Honestly...having read every book but Deception...every comic but Invasion. Playing ME1 over 40 times...ME2 over 20 times...and after having a total mental encyclopidia of ME knowledge....i can safely say...the more you know the less this intro makes sense. Because you see just how many MORE errors there are.

And I thought I played much! That's compliment, btw.
Although I haven't read any books or comic, intro did not make any sense to me. Of course, maybe there will be some epic ME2-alike intro, sort of "previously in ME", with brief introduction of our Shepards' (I hope so, hate that DA2 pwetty-pwetty ignowance of DAO) actions in previous games, ending with Arrival and telling us about events between Arrival and ME3, because I find wasting 6 month on some "trial&travel" rather "strange", not to say something unmentionable I could be banned for.

Apparently not...this is apparently the ENTIRE opening sequence of the "glorious" ME3

[Rudy Lis]

kylecouch wrote...

Apparently not...this is apparently the ENTIRE opening sequence of the "glorious" ME3

No matter how sad to agree with these words, but I see no other options. No, pre-order cancel is not an option.
Only if follow Garrus' advice - hope for that. Maybe we will be pleasantly surprised after all.

[TheRevanchist]

Klijpope wrote...

Massefeckt wrote...

Klijpope wrote...

snip

Bond films are desingned to be stand alone films ME is a trilogy. Also I think this is the divide of the forum I'm in the camp of ME being about the story with some action parts, you see it as an action game with a little bit of story here and there. You must have hated the Citadel and city sections of ME1.

I REALLY, REALLY do not see ME as an action game with a bit of story. (And I cannot emphasise that enough). It is all about the story for me. But, just as the story provides context for the gameplay, so the playing bit provides context for the plot. While I would happily play a game that is just about interactive dialogue (why the hunt for Morinth is one of my fave bits of ME2), I'm not sure it would sell enough to justify the wages of the VAs it would need to work.

This is not really about action over story. While I would love to play through a meaty trial sequence, it is no way at all to begin a game. Especially not a game about a galactic fight to the death. No film could do it either - it would kill the narrative in its tracks.

ME is top notch space opera - when does that ever, ever start with a lengthy talky bit, especially an exposition laden trial? The closest that thing that comes to it in the movies is, um, The Phantom Menace, and even that gets going after a while. Even Star Trek 1 started with klingons shooting torpedoes.

In an action narrative (film or game) the storyteller has to earn the attention of the audience before they can slow things down to the talky character building stuff. 

There is another factor too. There's an achievement for some kind of diplomatic negotiation - it would not do to essentially repeat a format later in the game, and maybe this negotiation thing is 'better' than the trial.

Except...when the game opens...the galaxy is not AT war...that seems to be the key people are missing...there IS no danger in the opening moments, Earth is...as far as anyone knows, just as peaceful as ever...theres no reason NOT to have calm and collected business as normal behavior. Time taken to catch everyone up with all thats happend in the last 6 months/ explain to new players wtf is going on. Give us time to talk to Vega abit...the VS and etc. Still dealing with the massive political blowback that SHOULD exsist from all Shepard has done. I mean srsly...magic Reaper proof from no where makes him immune to genocide actions while working for a human terrorist group? wow their awfully forgiving in the Alliance.

[kalle90]

2484Stryker wrote...

To me, throwing me into a room with a NPC that my PC knows but I don't separates me from my PC.  But that's just me. 

Exactly. Thing is there hasn't been 1 character like that in the series. In Mass Effect 1 everything from Council to Spectres to Kaidan was explained even though it's obvious Shepard should know quite a bit about them. In ME2 beginning we see Normandy getting blasted to shreds and every character from there on is more or less introduced.

Then in ME3 one of the very first things happening is that Jersey Shore guy walking in being overly respective towards Shepard and follows him around. You'd think Bioware would have been able to slip something like Anderson mentioning how "James Vega did this and that", though we don't know what happens in the full game.

Bioware has emphasized we really are not Shepard, we are just guiding him. IMO this is awful time to turn that around. How many other "Hey buddy how's it going, never seen you in a game" scenes there will be during rest of the game?

[TheRevanchist]

Rudy Lis wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

Apparently not...this is apparently the ENTIRE opening sequence of the "glorious" ME3

No matter how sad to agree with these words, but I see no other options. No, pre-order cancel is not an option.
Only if follow Garrus' advice - hope for that. Maybe we will be pleasantly surprised after all.

Well they told us the game opens at the end of the trial...did you see a trial anywhere? I sure as hell didn't.

[Dragoonlordz]

RowanCF wrote...

Which page is the Bioware post?

Right near the beginning of the thread somewhere.

[TheRevanchist]

kalle90 wrote...

2484Stryker wrote...

To me, throwing me into a room with a NPC that my PC knows but I don't separates me from my PC.  But that's just me. 

Exactly. Thing is there hasn't been 1 character like that in the series. In Mass Effect 1 everything from Council to Spectres to Kaidan was explained even though it's obvious Shepard should know quite a bit about them. In ME2 beginning we see Normandy getting blasted to shreds and every character from there on is more or less introduced.

Then in ME3 one of the very first things happening is that Jersey Shore guy walking in being overly respective towards Shepard and follows him around. You'd think Bioware would have been able to slip something like Anderson mentioning how "James Vega did this and that", though we don't know what happens in the full game.

Bioware has emphasized we really are not Shepard, we are just guiding him. IMO this is awful time to turn that around. How many other "Hey buddy how's it going, never seen you in a game" scenes there will be during rest of the game?

It all started in ME2...with this http://www.youtube.c...xoKm9T7w#t=444s

This is when the disconnect began.