2915 réponses à ce sujet

[TheRevanchist]

Klijpope wrote...

kylecouch wrote...
Except...when the game opens...the galaxy is not AT war...that seems to be the key people are missing...there IS no danger in the opening moments, Earth is...as far as anyone knows, just as peaceful as ever...theres no reason NOT to have calm and collected business as normal behavior.

That's not the point. I'd like something like that too, at some point. But right at the beginning of the game? A game where loads of the marketing have been about a Galaxy at War?

I'm not denying a trial would be fun. But it is not an appropriate way to begin a game like ME, and especially not ME3.

CaptainZaysh wrote...

I can't believe you guys are still agitating to kick off a space opera with a courtroom drama. Did you guys prefer The Phantom Menace to A New Hope or something?

^ This


Also, note that game grammar dictates the first level of a game is some kind of tutorial to let you get the basics of the gameplay. A lengthy trial doesn't do that for the combat mechanics, and nor does it let people into the dialogue system gently.

Yes...it would be appropriate...BECAUSE THATS THE WHOLE REASON SHEPARD IS EVEN THERE! He's not there to be a military advisor...he's not there to be friends. he's there to face the music for his actions. Just because a game is about PEW PEW PEW HOLY S*** GALACTIC WAR does not mean there can't be calm build up to the event...that does not mean they need some half ass scene to just straight to the Pew Pewing Galactic War. Even movies like Indipendence Day don't go straight to PEW PEW PEW ALIENS ARE ATTACKING!....they actually took the time to show us everyone...and their relationships towards each other. I find it rather disgusting that you keep thin king it has NO PLACVE AT ALL in the opening....like it is TOTALY impossible to pull off...as if if the game dont thats about Total War dont start off guns blazing and esplosions right off the bat then the ENITRE experiencve for the next 40-120 hours is TOTALY ruined.

[Rudy Lis]

Dragoonlordz wrote...


More akin to you get in the car alongside the dealer, he is in the driving seat (bit like the auto responses from Shepard in ME3 where you are not the one in control). He then speeds up to 120 miles per hour and then leaps from the car while your in the passenger seat without warning. This ultimately leads to you crashing and burning.

If any of local cars on any of local roads will be able to sped up to 120 mph, I'd be surprised.
But I like your version. At least there (in your version) you could try to hold the wheel and kill gearbox by manipulating it to slow vehicle down. Although most of modern cars with CVT those days.

[TomekN86]

kylecouch wrote...

Klijpope wrote...

kylecouch wrote...
Except...when the game opens...the galaxy is not AT war...that seems to be the key people are missing...there IS no danger in the opening moments, Earth is...as far as anyone knows, just as peaceful as ever...theres no reason NOT to have calm and collected business as normal behavior.

That's not the point. I'd like something like that too, at some point. But right at the beginning of the game? A game where loads of the marketing have been about a Galaxy at War?

I'm not denying a trial would be fun. But it is not an appropriate way to begin a game like ME, and especially not ME3.

CaptainZaysh wrote...

I can't believe you guys are still agitating to kick off a space opera with a courtroom drama. Did you guys prefer The Phantom Menace to A New Hope or something?

^ This


Also, note that game grammar dictates the first level of a game is some kind of tutorial to let you get the basics of the gameplay. A lengthy trial doesn't do that for the combat mechanics, and nor does it let people into the dialogue system gently.

Yes...it would be appropriate...BECAUSE THATS THE WHOLE REASON SHEPARD IS EVEN THERE! He's not there to be a military advisor...he's not there to be friends. he's there to face the music for his actions. Just because a game is about PEW PEW PEW HOLY S*** GALACTIC WAR does not mean there can't be calm build up to the event...that does not mean they need some half ass scene to just straight to the Pew Pewing Galactic War. Even movies like Indipendence Day don't go straight to PEW PEW PEW ALIENS ARE ATTACKING!....they actually took the time to show us everyone...and their relationships towards each other. I find it rather disgusting that you keep thin king it has NO PLACVE AT ALL in the opening....like it is TOTALY impossible to pull off...as if if the game dont thats about Total War dont start off guns blazing and esplosions right off the bat then the ENITRE experiencve for the next 40-120 hours is TOTALY ruined.

+1

[billy the squid]

Cainne Chapel wrote...

You do know that there's plenty of exposition that can happen AFTER Shepard gets off earth right?

Why would they need to pack story elements into the demo when they WANT you to buy the game for that?

There's no need for it in the demo, because its a frikken DEMO. You play it to generate interest and to hopefully in the companies eyes, generate enough interest to buy the game.

and with a story heavy game like the ME series is... why give away story in the demo?

There's absolutely no reason to go into detail about why shep is where he is, who is vega, who is kaidan or ashley, etc etc.

Ideally Bioware would WANT people to want to know more and thus by the game and find out.

By what level of twisted logic you came to that conclusion I find incredible. For a product which prides itself on strong characters and storyline, leaving the introductory portion a rushed disjointed mess is possibly the worst decision to take when showcasing a product's core competencies.

It has never been stated that the entire plotline must be explained and all characterisation locked within the first 10 minutes that is a contrived point that has been trotted out by individuals in the face of criticism of the game's introduction failing at the most basic level. To provide context of the situation and explaination of the events of the previous 6 months, why Shep is in his current predicament and what is the tribunal's opinion of his actions and the effect on the Alliance. It is not the opportunity to lay down the entire plot.

Finally the mantra of Demo is continually trotted out when we have been told it represents the game's introduction. I really am having a hard time believing reading is becoming such a difficult skill.

Modifié par billy the squid, 16 février 2012 - 01:35 .

[Dragoonlordz]

Rudy Lis wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...


More akin to you get in the car alongside the dealer, he is in the driving seat (bit like the auto responses from Shepard in ME3 where you are not the one in control). He then speeds up to 120 miles per hour and then leaps from the car while your in the passenger seat without warning. This ultimately leads to you crashing and burning.

If any of local cars on any of local roads will be able to sped up to 120 mph, I'd be surprised.
But I like your version. At least there (in your version) you could try to hold the wheel and kill gearbox by manipulating it to slow vehicle down. Although most of modern cars with CVT those days.

Excuse my ignorance but what does CVT mean? My car history has gone from Mr Bean style Austin Mini > Ford Mondeo > Proton Persona > MR2 MKII. I don't recall them having CVT simply because I do not remember what CVT means. 


You could drop down in gears to slow down the cars I have owned however but your in the passenger seat in my example so have no access to the clutch. Not to mention first thing you would do is slam on the brakes (implying a desire to slow down in first place is to me like implying you did not wish to be put in that position to begin with), in ME3s case it is not possible because of the situation/position your in and in my example refered to as being in the passenger seat with no access to brakes or clutch in order to slow down.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 16 février 2012 - 01:42 .

[txgoldrush]

billy the squid wrote...

Cainne Chapel wrote...

You do know that there's plenty of exposition that can happen AFTER Shepard gets off earth right?

Why would they need to pack story elements into the demo when they WANT you to buy the game for that?

There's no need for it in the demo, because its a frikken DEMO. You play it to generate interest and to hopefully in the companies eyes, generate enough interest to buy the game.

and with a story heavy game like the ME series is... why give away story in the demo?

There's absolutely no reason to go into detail about why shep is where he is, who is vega, who is kaidan or ashley, etc etc.

Ideally Bioware would WANT people to want to know more and thus by the game and find out.

By what level of twisted logic you came to that conclusion I find incredible. For a product which prides itself on strong characters and storyline, leaving the introductory portion a rushed disjointed mess is possibly the worst decision to take when showcasing a product's core competencies.

It has never been stated that the entire plotline must be explained and all characterisation locked within the first 10 minutes that is a contrived point that has been trotted out by individuals in the face of criticism of the game's introduction failing at the most basic level. To provide context of the situation and explaination of the events of the previous 6 months, why Shep is in his current predicament and what is the tribunal's opinion of his actions and the effect on the Alliance. It is not the opportunity to lay down the entire plot.

Finally the mantra of Demo is continually trotted out when we have been told it represents the game's introduction. I really am having a hard time believing reading is becoming such a difficult skill.

And yet they can you know, explain the previous 6 months on the ship after you leave Earth. It isn't hard to do.

[2484Stryker]

txgoldrush wrote...
And yet they can you know, explain the previous 6 months on the ship after you leave Earth. It isn't hard to do.

Not hard to do, but shouldn't be done at all.  No self-respecting game developer would set up the game after it's already begun.  ME is in a league of its own and its makers should know better.

It's like introducing yourself to your wife AFTER you married her.

[Gavinthelocust]

txgoldrush wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Cainne Chapel wrote...

You do know that there's plenty of exposition that can happen AFTER Shepard gets off earth right?

Why would they need to pack story elements into the demo when they WANT you to buy the game for that?

There's no need for it in the demo, because its a frikken DEMO. You play it to generate interest and to hopefully in the companies eyes, generate enough interest to buy the game.

and with a story heavy game like the ME series is... why give away story in the demo?

There's absolutely no reason to go into detail about why shep is where he is, who is vega, who is kaidan or ashley, etc etc.

Ideally Bioware would WANT people to want to know more and thus by the game and find out.

By what level of twisted logic you came to that conclusion I find incredible. For a product which prides itself on strong characters and storyline, leaving the introductory portion a rushed disjointed mess is possibly the worst decision to take when showcasing a product's core competencies.

It has never been stated that the entire plotline must be explained and all characterisation locked within the first 10 minutes that is a contrived point that has been trotted out by individuals in the face of criticism of the game's introduction failing at the most basic level. To provide context of the situation and explaination of the events of the previous 6 months, why Shep is in his current predicament and what is the tribunal's opinion of his actions and the effect on the Alliance. It is not the opportunity to lay down the entire plot.

Finally the mantra of Demo is continually trotted out when we have been told it represents the game's introduction. I really am having a hard time believing reading is becoming such a difficult skill.

And yet they can you know, explain the previous 6 months on the ship after you leave Earth. It isn't hard to do.

It's what they did in ME1, you didn't know who the hell Kaidan was until you got back to the ship. Jenkins got more character development than him in ME1's intro.

[Comsky159]

"Hey Vega"
"Commander?"
"It seems I have no recollection of the past 6 months. How the f*** did I end up on earth anyway"
"Come sit on my knee commander, and uncle Vega will tell you all about it. It was a dark and stormy night on Aratoht..."

Modifié par Comsky159, 16 février 2012 - 01:54 .

[TheRevanchist]

Gavinthelocust wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Cainne Chapel wrote...

You do know that there's plenty of exposition that can happen AFTER Shepard gets off earth right?

Why would they need to pack story elements into the demo when they WANT you to buy the game for that?

There's no need for it in the demo, because its a frikken DEMO. You play it to generate interest and to hopefully in the companies eyes, generate enough interest to buy the game.

and with a story heavy game like the ME series is... why give away story in the demo?

There's absolutely no reason to go into detail about why shep is where he is, who is vega, who is kaidan or ashley, etc etc.

Ideally Bioware would WANT people to want to know more and thus by the game and find out.

By what level of twisted logic you came to that conclusion I find incredible. For a product which prides itself on strong characters and storyline, leaving the introductory portion a rushed disjointed mess is possibly the worst decision to take when showcasing a product's core competencies.

It has never been stated that the entire plotline must be explained and all characterisation locked within the first 10 minutes that is a contrived point that has been trotted out by individuals in the face of criticism of the game's introduction failing at the most basic level. To provide context of the situation and explaination of the events of the previous 6 months, why Shep is in his current predicament and what is the tribunal's opinion of his actions and the effect on the Alliance. It is not the opportunity to lay down the entire plot.

Finally the mantra of Demo is continually trotted out when we have been told it represents the game's introduction. I really am having a hard time believing reading is becoming such a difficult skill.

And yet they can you know, explain the previous 6 months on the ship after you leave Earth. It isn't hard to do.

It's what they did in ME1, you didn't know who the hell Kaidan was until you got back to the ship. Jenkins got more character development than him in ME1's intro.

Except Shepard didn't act like they were his best friends. in fact he didn't really react to them at all...he treats them more like co-workers in those opening sequences...so I feel this defence holds no weight at all.

[Randy1012]

Personally I think it would have been cooler if the Reapers had shown up right in the middle of the trial, but meh, whatever. It's moot at this point.

[billy the squid]

txgoldrush wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Cainne Chapel wrote...

You do know that there's plenty of exposition that can happen AFTER Shepard gets off earth right?

Why would they need to pack story elements into the demo when they WANT you to buy the game for that?

There's no need for it in the demo, because its a frikken DEMO. You play it to generate interest and to hopefully in the companies eyes, generate enough interest to buy the game.

and with a story heavy game like the ME series is... why give away story in the demo?

There's absolutely no reason to go into detail about why shep is where he is, who is vega, who is kaidan or ashley, etc etc.

Ideally Bioware would WANT people to want to know more and thus by the game and find out.

By what level of twisted logic you came to that conclusion I find incredible. For a product which prides itself on strong characters and storyline, leaving the introductory portion a rushed disjointed mess is possibly the worst decision to take when showcasing a product's core competencies.

It has never been stated that the entire plotline must be explained and all characterisation locked within the first 10 minutes that is a contrived point that has been trotted out by individuals in the face of criticism of the game's introduction failing at the most basic level. To provide context of the situation and explaination of the events of the previous 6 months, why Shep is in his current predicament and what is the tribunal's opinion of his actions and the effect on the Alliance. It is not the opportunity to lay down the entire plot.

Finally the mantra of Demo is continually trotted out when we have been told it represents the game's introduction. I really am having a hard time believing reading is becoming such a difficult skill.

And yet they can you know, explain the previous 6 months on the ship after you leave Earth. It isn't hard to do.

Thereby rendering the introduction entirely redundant and making it throw away cutscene. Nor would it address in the correct order, context or connection event's like the detonation of the relay and the Alliance's tribunal against shep. The wider ramifications. What has occured in the last 6 months regarding colonies, how sheps acts affected relations with the Baterians and the Council at large. You know points which generally help to provide someone with context of what is going on when you first start the narrative not a chapter in, after the individual has had no clue what is going on at that time.

[Dragoonlordz]

txgoldrush wrote...

And yet they can you know, explain the previous 6 months on the ship after you leave Earth. It isn't hard to do.

In the end you have a personal preference for it to occur later and want to get into the action at the start. While some others would like to have such things and more prior. Quit whining and moaning over the simple fact some people have a different personal preference to yourself. That is not a valid way to argue with someone hence the word "personal", your not going to change anyone's mind in here just by ranting at them your own personal preference.


Example of how many have one preference over another. It is not just handful of people who feel like we do on here.

Are you planning on ranting and harrassing those 250 people who feel the same way too because they feel the same way as most of us here?

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 16 février 2012 - 02:06 .

[2484Stryker]

Randy1083 wrote...

Personally I think it would have been cooler if the Reapers had shown up right in the middle of the trial, but meh, whatever. It's moot at this point.

Sadly yes.  Won't stop me from buying and enjoying the game, but neither will it stop me from pointing out the flaws. 

[Shinobu]

Comsky159 wrote...

"Hey Vega"
"Commander?"
"It seems I have no recollection of the past 6 months. How the f*** did I get here"
"Come sit on my knee commander, and uncle Vega will tell you all about it. It was a dark and stormy night on Aratoht..."

Someone brought up the notion of a trial DLC. Sadly, I would buy it.

[hotdogbsg]

It's what they did in ME1, you didn't know who the hell Kaidan was until you got back to the ship. Jenkins got more character development than him in ME1's intro.

That is a good point. My first time playing through the game I assumed Kaidan was going to be cannon fodder and Jenkins would be an established character. 

[txgoldrush]

2484Stryker wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...
And yet they can you know, explain the previous 6 months on the ship after you leave Earth. It isn't hard to do.

Not hard to do, but shouldn't be done at all.  No self-respecting game developer would set up the game after it's already begun.  ME is in a league of its own and its makers should know better.

It's like introducing yourself to your wife AFTER you married her.

and yet many games and movies open with fast action before everything gets explained.

Hell, what does Saving Private Ryan open with...freaking D-Day, without first even introducing the captain and his soliders properly until after the battle is over. So much for woulda shoulda....if the tactics is so bad, than why was that movie acclaimed. Hell, they didn't even introduce the true protagonist untli late in the film.

The are no rules in storytelling except what the author wants to play by.

And do I HAVE to mention Final Fantasy VI again? How does that game open?

Hell, Terra is even known as ??????????? in the beginning.

[Dragoonlordz]

Shinobu wrote...

Comsky159 wrote...

"Hey Vega"
"Commander?"
"It seems I have no recollection of the past 6 months. How the f*** did I get here"
"Come sit on my knee commander, and uncle Vega will tell you all about it. It was a dark and stormy night on Aratoht..."

Someone brought up the notion of a trial DLC. Sadly, I would buy it.

Not just the trial but content involving the 6 months was present on Earth. I would buy it but only because my desire for that sort of content is huge. Even if would feel like a cheap shot by Bioware to lack it in retail and sell to us later but I would still buy it. 

[Atakuma]

The least they could have done was have the opening scrawl deliver some exposition. It would have been better than "it's the future, there are reapers, Shepard fights reapers".

Modifié par Atakuma, 16 février 2012 - 02:03 .

[Klijpope]

kylecouch wrote...


Yes...it would be appropriate...BECAUSE THATS THE WHOLE REASON SHEPARD IS EVEN THERE! He's not there to be a military advisor...he's not there to be friends. he's there to face the music for his actions. Just because a game is about PEW PEW PEW HOLY S*** GALACTIC WAR does not mean there can't be calm build up to the event...that does not mean they need some half ass scene to just straight to the Pew Pewing Galactic War. Even movies like Indipendence Day don't go straight to PEW PEW PEW ALIENS ARE ATTACKING!....they actually took the time to show us everyone...and their relationships towards each other. I find it rather disgusting that you keep thin king it has NO PLACVE AT ALL in the opening....like it is TOTALY impossible to pull off...as if if the game dont thats about Total War dont start off guns blazing and esplosions right off the bat then the ENITRE experiencve for the next 40-120 hours is TOTALY ruined.

Look, it is a game about saving the galaxy from monumentally powerful death machines. A game that has had 2 previous installments setting up the story, in detail. The opening has to work for both old-timers and newbies.

a) Do old-timers need a trial sequence to know what is going on?
Won't newbies think they've bought Pheonix Wright in space instead of the galactic war they were expecting?
c) Is it fair to expect newbies or even rusty old-timers to have to pick game effecting dialogue at the very beginninng?
d) If the dialogue does not have any consequence is there any point to there being a lengthy sequence with it?

(You do realise plenty of cool scenes get deleted from movies because they just don't work in context or break up the pacing).

ME3 isn't DLC for ME2, it's a game in it's own right. And while a trial is a cool idea in practice it just does not work for the opening of, well, any kind of story whatsoever. Is there any instance in film or books where the story starts in a trial, without invoking a flashback structure? Even stories about trials don't start with them in the middle of it.

Edit: also, apart from throwaway montages where the hero is wrongfully/rightfully imprisoned.

Also, amazed you can be disgusted (?) by someone having some understanding of how stories work.

Modifié par Klijpope, 16 février 2012 - 02:12 .

[txgoldrush]

Comsky159 wrote...

"Hey Vega"
"Commander?"
"It seems I have no recollection of the past 6 months. How the f*** did I end up on earth anyway"
"Come sit on my knee commander, and uncle Vega will tell you all about it. It was a dark and stormy night on Aratoht..."

Look at The Witcher 2, that game knew how to manage a time gap effectively. All it takes is good writing. In fact Shepard himself can explain the details.

[Gavinthelocust]

kylecouch wrote...

Except Shepard didn't act like they were his best friends. in fact he didn't really react to them at all...he treats them more like co-workers in those opening sequences...so I feel this defence holds no weight at all.

Eh, true.
But again, I think they'll at least attempt at giving a reason for it after leaving earth instead of just saying "here's your jersey shore reject and you will love him" as some people here appear to believe. Probably involving that sparring scene they constantly show in the trailers for no reason.

Modifié par Gavinthelocust, 16 février 2012 - 02:07 .

[Dragoonlordz]

txgoldrush wrote...

Comsky159 wrote...

"Hey Vega"
"Commander?"
"It seems I have no recollection of the past 6 months. How the f*** did I end up on earth anyway"
"Come sit on my knee commander, and uncle Vega will tell you all about it. It was a dark and stormy night on Aratoht..."

Look at The Witcher 2, that game knew how to manage a time gap effectively. All it takes is good writing. In fact Shepard himself can explain the details.

And yet TW2 also starts slow, the army may be fighting but you can stroll around the camp to your hearts content, you have a great deal of dialogue options with Triss and others which recap some of the past events and why you are there of which you actually have input into. Referencing TW2 did not do you much credit in this case. I would also point out with 'good writing' the trial could work well.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 16 février 2012 - 02:14 .

[RowanCF]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

RowanCF wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

RowanCF wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

On side note, was it just me that found the scrolling text at start explaining the story extremely grating? I'm guessing that is not included and part of the retail game. If is then wow, that is so tacky and bad borderline (imho) insulting. Three paragraphs to explain plot of last two titles and even then done badly. I am going to just jump to the assumption that specific element or part of demo is only for the demo for the sake of my sanity.

What the hell? Are you trolling or something? They did that exact same thing in the ME 2 intro, how you find that insulting is truly beyond me.

It was poorly shown, lacked immense detail and was poorly written.

This is my subjective opinion on that aspect.

Lol of course it lacked detail, did you want them to copy and paste the entire "plot" section from wikipedia for the first 2 games there? If you want detail you should play the first two games.

At least in ME2 we had TiM and Miranda doing this aspect, explaining what happened prior.

Sure, but that's not what you were talking about in that other comment. And ME 3 intro does have that as well, but I do agree the intro should have been less rushed.