2915 réponses à ce sujet

[DJBare]

txgoldrush wrote...

Comsky159 wrote...

"Hey Vega"
"Commander?"
"It seems I have no recollection of the past 6 months. How the f*** did I end up on earth anyway"
"Come sit on my knee commander, and uncle Vega will tell you all about it. It was a dark and stormy night on Aratoht..."

Look at The Witcher 2, that game knew how to manage a time gap effectively. All it takes is good writing. In fact Shepard himself can explain the details.

You are not helping your own case

[JEMEDAOME2]

I would rather have a weak intro to a great game than have good 1 for a poor one stop complaining play MGS HD or Kingdoms of Amalur reckoning (it's really quite good) to pass the time till the 6th/9th hell it may even make your worries go away for a while.

[billy the squid]

JEMEDAOME2 wrote...

I would rather have a weak intro to a great game than have good 1 for a poor one stop complaining play MGS HD or Kingdoms of Amalur reckoning (it's really quite good) to pass the time till the 6th/9th hell it may even make your worries go away for a while.

Thank you for that wonderfully insightful post, is introduction quality inversly related to the quality of the game?

[TheRevanchist]

Klijpope wrote...

kylecouch wrote...


Yes...it would be appropriate...BECAUSE THATS THE WHOLE REASON SHEPARD IS EVEN THERE! He's not there to be a military advisor...he's not there to be friends. he's there to face the music for his actions. Just because a game is about PEW PEW PEW HOLY S*** GALACTIC WAR does not mean there can't be calm build up to the event...that does not mean they need some half ass scene to just straight to the Pew Pewing Galactic War. Even movies like Indipendence Day don't go straight to PEW PEW PEW ALIENS ARE ATTACKING!....they actually took the time to show us everyone...and their relationships towards each other. I find it rather disgusting that you keep thin king it has NO PLACVE AT ALL in the opening....like it is TOTALY impossible to pull off...as if if the game dont thats about Total War dont start off guns blazing and esplosions right off the bat then the ENITRE experiencve for the next 40-120 hours is TOTALY ruined.

Look, it is a game about saving the galaxy from monumentally powerful death machines. A game that has had 2 previous installments setting up the story, in detail. The opening has to work for both old-timers and newbies.

a) Do old-timers need a trial sequence to know what is going on?
Won't newbies think they've bought Pheonix Wright in space instead of the galactic war they were expecting?
c) Is it fair to expect newbies or even rusty old-timers to have to pick game effecting dialogue at the very beginninng?
d) If the dialogue does not have any consequence is there any point to there being a lengthy sequence with it?

(You do realise plenty of cool scenes get deleted from movies because they just don't work in context or break up the pacing).

ME3 isn't DLC for ME2, it's a game in it's own right. And while a trial is a cool idea in practice it just does not work for the opening of, well, any kind of story whatsoever. Is there any instance in film or books where the story starts in a trial, without invoking a flashback structure? Even stories about trials don't start with them in the middle of it.

Edit: also, apart from throwaway montages where the hero is wrongfully/rightfully imprisoned.

Yes...there is...there is pleanty of reason...but you and ppl with your mind set only care about the  "THIS IS GALACTIC WAR!!!!" part of this game. To hell with the fact that good story pacing is nessasary and not to mention something that should be basiclly provided regardless if there have been two previous games. The fact of the matter is...new ppl who have no damn idea what ME is look at this opening and are JUST AS LOST as old time fans...they too have no idea wtf is going on in this situation. CLEARLY something is BROKEN here! Weather you chose to see that or not is your own business. But this set up is simply not acceptable from really any perspective. Making broad generalizations like "Newbs will think they bought Pheonix Wright in space!" Really? you assume people will have so little patience as to figure out WHY it would be taking place? that they are so moronicly stupid they would just assume that just because a Trial is happening on screen thats it's Law and Order in space? Maybe YOU would think that...because god forbid you are delayed from your cherished Galactic War for more than 5 minutes. God forbid the Story ACTUALLY get followed through with properly with the material that ME2 gave us.

Secondly...new players SHOULD be **** out of luck. If you are truly stupid enough to wait until THE END OF A TRILOGY to get interested in it...you DESERVE to be left out. Period. The fact that Bioware does this is only further proof of how they have failed to tell a proper story.  And your continued insistence of "It cant work...it just dont work for anything" is complete opinion on your part...and has NO BASIS in fact...AT ALL. Lastly...Clearly Old time players need SOMETHING to know wtf is going on...because I've probably played ME more than anyone else on this entire planet and I have NO DAMN IDEA WHAT THIS IS!" 

Again...Earth Invasion movies have done this countless times before...but just because it's a video game its TOTALY unaccetable? No...I think your narrow minded view of "It cannot possibly happen no matter what. There is no way this could ever work ever ever" is totaly unaccetable.

[TheRevanchist]

billy the squid wrote...

JEMEDAOME2 wrote...

I would rather have a weak intro to a great game than have good 1 for a poor one stop complaining play MGS HD or Kingdoms of Amalur reckoning (it's really quite good) to pass the time till the 6th/9th hell it may even make your worries go away for a while.

Thank you for that wonderfully insightful post, is introduction quality inversly related to the quality of the game?

Apparently...I never knew the only way to get a good game was to have a terrible opening.

[Spartan901]

Wow this is going 73 pages deep huh

[txgoldrush]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Comsky159 wrote...

"Hey Vega"
"Commander?"
"It seems I have no recollection of the past 6 months. How the f*** did I end up on earth anyway"
"Come sit on my knee commander, and uncle Vega will tell you all about it. It was a dark and stormy night on Aratoht..."

Look at The Witcher 2, that game knew how to manage a time gap effectively. All it takes is good writing. In fact Shepard himself can explain the details.

And yet TW2 also starts slow, the army may be fighting but you can stroll around the camp to your hearts content, you have a great deal of dialogue options with Triss and others which recap some of the past events and why you are there of which you actually have input into. Referencing TW2 did not do you much credit in this case. I would also point out with 'good writing' the trial could work well.

Actually there is not a lot of Triss dialogue, the camp is really limited, the castle has the same linear gameplay ME stages do. The beginning does really recap the first all that much and what side you choose in the first isn't even mentioned, only Adda's fate. Vernon and Ves don't really get truly introduced and fleshed out until Act I.

However, despite all this, throughout the game, it filled in the time gap through Geralt himself and through other characters and the Enhanced Edition will do so even more. It wasn't all in the very beginning.

The only thing that the intro needs is fleshing out, something Ash/Kaiden, James, Joker, and even Shep himself can do on the ship on the way to Mars.

And as the trial was original planned for ME3, it just doesn't work...its a 2 minute blame game, not something that fleshes out the story. Thats what was altered, not a 10-15 minute scene earlier. The intro would have moved at the same speed. And really, the trial itself would have been very rushed.

[izmirtheastarach]

I love how txgoldrush was apparently present for all of Bioware's internal story meetings. And is, as such, the final authority on what works and what doesn't.

I urge people to stop trying to argue with this person. I have never seen anyone more arrogant on these forums.

Modifié par izmirtheastarach, 16 février 2012 - 02:43 .

[DJBare]

Spartan901 wrote...

Wow this is going 73 pages deep huh

This is what happens when you say something and then do not deliver, Bioware tell the press the game would open with a trial, then we learn the game opens at the end of the trial, oh well, I'm certain I'm still going to enjoy the game(hopefully), what I find amazing is devs know it's a minefield to say anything before they have something solid.

[izmirtheastarach]

DJBare wrote...

Spartan901 wrote...

Wow this is going 73 pages deep huh

This is what happens when you say something and then do not deliver, Bioware tell the press the game would open with a trial, then we learn the game opens at the end of the trial, oh well, I'm certain I'm still going to enjoy the game(hopefully), what I find amazing is devs know it's a minefield to say anything before they have something solid.

Who would have thought that hyping a feature and then pulling it without explanation would leave people disappointed?

[Cainne Chapel]

billy the squid wrote...

Cainne Chapel wrote...

You do know that there's plenty of exposition that can happen AFTER Shepard gets off earth right?

Why would they need to pack story elements into the demo when they WANT you to buy the game for that?

There's no need for it in the demo, because its a frikken DEMO. You play it to generate interest and to hopefully in the companies eyes, generate enough interest to buy the game.

and with a story heavy game like the ME series is... why give away story in the demo?

There's absolutely no reason to go into detail about why shep is where he is, who is vega, who is kaidan or ashley, etc etc.

Ideally Bioware would WANT people to want to know more and thus by the game and find out.

By what level of twisted logic you came to that conclusion I find incredible. For a product which prides itself on strong characters and storyline, leaving the introductory portion a rushed disjointed mess is possibly the worst decision to take when showcasing a product's core competencies.

It has never been stated that the entire plotline must be explained and all characterisation locked within the first 10 minutes that is a contrived point that has been trotted out by individuals in the face of criticism of the game's introduction failing at the most basic level. To provide context of the situation and explaination of the events of the previous 6 months, why Shep is in his current predicament and what is the tribunal's opinion of his actions and the effect on the Alliance. It is not the opportunity to lay down the entire plot.

Finally the mantra of Demo is continually trotted out when we have been told it represents the game's introduction. I really am having a hard time believing reading is becoming such a difficult skill.

I dont think I have any twisted logic, but then I also dont need my hand held in the intro stage of 3rd game of a trilogy.
Yes the product prides itself on strong characters and storyline... but really how much did you expect to get out of a 40 minute or so demo? I would HOPE they wouldnt do a FULL recap to bring people up to speed int he demo.  You have the full game for that.

heck in the demo you dont even KNOW its been 6 months, its just a flat out cold open "in progress" type opening it would seem.  I'd imagine there'd be more exposition once they get out of dodge so to speak.  Which of course doesn't really need to be included in the demo.

As for myself, I dont feel the opening failed at the most basic level, that can be your opinion, however it is one I do not share.

As a fan of the previous two games, I'm not really worried about the story or plot honestly. 

and if you look back ME1 and ME2s intro's didn't explain EVERYTHING either, they also kind of got right to the action after a few minutes. (Eden prime attack, ship blowing up) and such.

[TheRevanchist]

DJBare wrote...

Spartan901 wrote...

Wow this is going 73 pages deep huh

This is what happens when you say something and then do not deliver, Bioware tell the press the game would open with a trial, then we learn the game opens at the end of the trial, oh well, I'm certain I'm still going to enjoy the game(hopefully), what I find amazing is devs know it's a minefield to say anything before they have something solid.

Not to mention they actually SHOWED the Press a closed demo with a trial in it. Which is where all the articles came from.

[DPSSOC]

Yeah I'm really hoping the beginning of the demo isn't actually the beginning of the game. I just had two many questions like:
Why am I in an office ME2 ended with me facing war crime charges?
Who the hell is this guy with the tattoo?
Who's the Defence Commitee and why do I answer to them?
Where's my ship?
Hey it's Anderson
Why have I been sitting around doing nothing long enough to get pudgy?
Why did they take my ship?
What have I been doing since Arrival?

and the list goes on.

[TheRevanchist]

DPSSOC wrote...

Yeah I'm really hoping the beginning of the demo isn't actually the beginning of the game. I just had two many questions like:
Why am I in an office ME2 ended with me facing war crime charges?
Who the hell is this guy with the tattoo?
Who's the Defence Commitee and why do I answer to them?
Where's my ship?
Hey it's Anderson
Why have I been sitting around doing nothing long enough to get pudgy?
Why did they take my ship?
What have I been doing since Arrival?

and the list goes on.

Exactly...it's very poorly handled. Also yes...Chris told us the demo is copy and paste from the final product.  

[izmirtheastarach]

Cainne Chapel wrote...

heck in the demo you dont even KNOW its been 6 months, its just a flat out cold open "in progress" type opening it would seem.  I'd imagine there'd be more exposition once they get out of dodge so to speak.  Which of course doesn't really need to be included in the demo.

This may well be totally true. But the fact that after playing the intro I then had to be told when the intro takes place seems a little odd. Could they not have easily included some mentions of the amount of time that had passed? Would that have been so hard?

It's really jarring for those of us who are prepping our final playthroughs.

Modifié par izmirtheastarach, 16 février 2012 - 02:52 .

[TMA LIVE]

They could of even put it in the text crawl "But after destroying an entire batarian colony, the Commander was placed on house arrest. Awaiting his trial."

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 16 février 2012 - 03:03 .

[DPSSOC]

kylecouch wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Yeah I'm really hoping the beginning of the demo isn't actually the beginning of the game. I just had two many questions like:
Why am I in an office ME2 ended with me facing war crime charges?
Who the hell is this guy with the tattoo?
Who's the Defence Commitee and why do I answer to them?
Where's my ship?
Hey it's Anderson
Why have I been sitting around doing nothing long enough to get pudgy?
Why did they take my ship?
What have I been doing since Arrival?

and the list goes on.

Exactly...it's very poorly handled. Also yes...Chris told us the demo is copy and paste from the final product.  

God please tell me we get something; cutscene, mention in the comic (Genesis import style), anying.  Please do not tell me that Bioware did not feel the need to introduce the player to new characters before establishing the Shepard's familliarity with them.  I mean in ME1/2 we weren't told who the new people were right away but that wasn't necessary because Shepard wasnt' familliar with them either.  Our learning about the characters was Shepard's learning about them.

If they go this route that means everything the player learns about Vega is going to be remarkably jarring exposition where Shepard asks about stuff they should already know given the level of familliarity they express.

[kleindropper]

Frankly, I can't remember any of the decisions I made on my Sheps so I'm hopeful that a trial scene will give me a roundup of my major decisions a'la the Seinfeld finale (which also happened to be a trial.)

[Comsky159]

kleindropper wrote...

Frankly, I can't remember any of the decisions I made on my Sheps so I'm hopeful that a trial scene will give me a roundup of my major decisions a'la the Seinfeld finale (which also happened to be a trial.)

It'd be such an incredibly efficient way of recapping the past games events without any cheap montage or text crawl.

[izmirtheastarach]

kleindropper wrote...

Frankly, I can't remember any of the decisions I made on my Sheps so I'm hopeful that a trial scene will give me a roundup of my major decisions a'la the Seinfeld finale (which also happened to be a trial.)

Except....that there isn't one. That's what this thread is about.

[Dragoonlordz]

TMA LIVE wrote...

They could of even put it in the text crawl "But after destroying an entire batarian colony, the Commander was placed on house arrest. Awaiting his trial."

Well it can't say awaiting trial because we already missed out on it as soon as game starts. Adding even that amended version to the text crawl would not work in sense would create even more confusion from the perspective of the player going oh ok the trial happened in the previous game. Then when goes and buys Me2 to play, see's nothing about a trial happening, also nothing that shows him going back to Earth either again leading to disconnect and confusion but this time relating to the previous game which just passes the problem on to the second in the trilogy.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 16 février 2012 - 03:10 .

[Gorosaur]

Is it just me, or does that 58 second Take Back Earth teaser do a better job at setting up Earth's invasion than the actual game?

[Klijpope]

kylecouch wrote...
Yes...there is...there is pleanty of reason...but you and ppl with your mind set only care about the  "THIS IS GALACTIC WAR!!!!" part of this game. 

No I don't. I care about the interactions with the characters I have grown to love over two games, on the backdrop of a galactic war, when the stakes could not be higher. I have said a trial would be a cool thing to play through. Just not as the opening level of a game.

kylecouch wrote...
Secondly...new players SHOULD be **** out of luck. 

Overbearing sense of entitlement? Good luck in trying to stay in business selling games that aren't playable unless you've played previous instalments. 

kylecouch wrote..
Again...Earth Invasion movies have done this countless times before...but just because it's a video game its TOTALY unaccetable? No...I think your narrow minded view of "It cannot possibly happen no matter what. There is no way this could ever work ever ever" is totaly unaccetable.

No Earth Invasion movie has ever started with a 20 minute courtroom drama scene. Ever.

If you'd actually read what I post rather than launching of into a barely coherent tirade, I am not saying that isn't lacking in setting up the story properly. I'm hoping that there'll be some investigate options that were cut for spoilers in the actual game, and some weird cuts in the demo lead me to expect a few extra bits of talking when I start playing for real. A bit more expository conversation in that intro section could easily make the opening more effective.

However, I am saying, no matter how cool a trial sequence would be, it is no way to open a story. As long as the repercussions of Arrival are addressed further down the line, all is well.

There really is no need to go all Corporal Jones until we've seen the finished product.

[ItsFreakinJesus]

So, I went back to watch the intro of the leaked beta. Guess what? Anderson, during some exposition, explicitly explains what Shepard did to get in this situation. The parts of the conversation this is mentioned in is cut from the official demo.

[JeffZero]

ItsFreakinJesus wrote...

So, I went back to watch the intro of the leaked beta. Guess what? Anderson, during some exposition, explicitly explains what Shepard did to get in this situation. The parts of the conversation this is mentioned in is cut from the official demo.

Yes, it is almost certainly specifically for imported Shepards to hear. Remember that marketing has mentioned numerous times that the game rewrites itself in various ways for newcomers.