129 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria Caliban]

Not everyone murdered her.



I'm not sure what you're looking for. We don't know if Flemeth is what others say she is. Then again, we don't know a great deal in this game.

[Jayndoe]

We are all shades of grey. The degree of which? That, my friends, purely depends on the one with the perception and the state of mind to make that judgment.



Semantics is a fun game to get caught up in, but the inferred definitions are highly subjective and based on the aforementioned perception.

[kormesios]

Jayndoe wrote...

We are all shades of grey. The degree of which? That, my friends, purely depends on the one with the perception and the state of mind to make that judgment.

Semantics is a fun game to get caught up in, but the inferred definitions are highly subjective and based on the aforementioned perception.

Grrr! Must repeat this yet again! 

This is *not* a semantic question, it is an evidentiary question!

I agree 100% that IF she is a demon who plans to posess the body of Morrigan as she did dozens previously,she is a serial-killing evil murderer.

I disagree 100% that anyone (on this thread, at least) has provided any remotely convincing arguments that this what she did/planned to do.

__________________________

@Maria: Yes, I can live with the not knowing.  I'm a little amazed, though, that almost everyone who posts seems so certain.  I don't understand where that's coming from.

[cpip]

kormesios wrote...

I agree 100% that IF she is a demon who plans to posess the body of Morrigan as she did dozens previously,she is a serial-killing evil murderer.

I disagree 100% that anyone (on this thread, at least) has provided any remotely convincing arguments that this what she did/planned to do.

__________________________

@Maria: Yes, I can live with the not knowing.  I'm a little amazed, though, that almost everyone who posts seems so certain.  I don't understand where that's coming from.

Interestingly, my wife viewed it the same way; and so Elissa Cousland told them both "To Hell With You and Your Games" and walked away from them both.

Honestly, I liked Flemeth's response to that one.  "What?  Neither tune?  Just walk off the floor?  Now that is a different dance."

One almost got the impression that Flemeth and Morrigan HAVE played a game before of trying to kill each other...

Modifié par cpip, 24 novembre 2009 - 06:09 .

[Serogon]

Well, frankly, does it MATTER that the evidence we do have may not be reliable? Think about it. We have evidence pointing that she's evil, though it may not be reliable. We have no evidence whatsoever pointing to her not being evil. Isn't it a bit irresponsible to not assume she's evil?

[Aderis]

As the person within your signature states, I would like to believe that it is what she intended to but it is also entirely possible that the knowledge was planted into Morrigan's mind in order to make 'want' Flemeth dead along with the book.



I don't remember the book being fake, perhaps it was 'left' behind on purpose to be taken by the Templar's so that Morrigan could find it on purpose or so others could find it. What we do know is what we have been told and the tale behind Flemeth and the 'Witch of the Wild'. This leaves little to no evidence as to any solid information.



You won't find any solid information on Flemeth unless I missed it within the game (Which is still possible I'm only 75% through all of it and I've missed a few Codex entries (Mostly weapon codex's).



If you do let me know!

[kormesios]

Serogon wrote...

Well, frankly, does it MATTER that the evidence we do have may not be reliable? Think about it. We have evidence pointing that she's evil, though it may not be reliable. We have no evidence whatsoever pointing to her not being evil. Isn't it a bit irresponsible to not assume she's evil?

Wow.  Wouldn't want you on my jury.

"We've heard rumors that you were a murderer.  The rumors come from people who've never met you, never even met anyone who met you, and certainly didn't see you do malicious harm to anyone ever.  This wouldn't seem compelling evidence, but I asked around the water cooler, and no one said they thought you were good.   Clearly, it would be irresponsible NOT to execute you!"

The reliability of the evidence matters quite a bit.  As I've said, most powerful mages in Thedas would provoke exactly the same sort of story--what would happen to Wynne if people heard about her and she was still alive in 50 years?

I wouldn't trust Flemeth with, say, the regency, given the lack of any definitive answer and some disturbing hearsay.  Still a long way from deciding to execute her.  And, in fact, in the short term, I probably would trust her as an ally against the Blight before I'd trust most of my non-companion "allies".  If only because she seems more aware of the dangers it poses, and less distracted by other concerns.  (I agree this has nothing to do with goodness or evil, in and of itself.)

Incidentally, in-game, obviously the "real" answer says a lot about Morrigan, too.  So it matters for that purpose, if you're curious about your companions character.

[Vicious]

Given her origins, and how she was possessed, I'd say she is possessed by a powerful spirit of Rage. Vengeance probably.

[Serogon]

kormesios wrote...

Serogon wrote...

Well, frankly, does it MATTER that the evidence we do have may not be reliable? Think about it. We have evidence pointing that she's evil, though it may not be reliable. We have no evidence whatsoever pointing to her not being evil. Isn't it a bit irresponsible to not assume she's evil?

Wow.  Wouldn't want you on my jury.

"We've heard rumors that you were a murderer.  The rumors come from people who've never met you, never even met anyone who met you, and certainly didn't see you do malicious harm to anyone ever.  This wouldn't seem compelling evidence, but I asked around the water cooler, and no one said they thought you were good.   Clearly, it would be irresponsible NOT to execute you!"

The reliability of the evidence matters quite a bit.  As I've said, most powerful mages in Thedas would provoke exactly the same sort of story--what would happen to Wynne if people heard about her and she was still alive in 50 years?

I wouldn't trust Flemeth with, say, the regency, given the lack of any definitive answer and some disturbing hearsay.  Still a long way from deciding to execute her.  And, in fact, in the short term, I probably would trust her as an ally against the Blight before I'd trust most of my non-companion "allies".  If only because she seems more aware of the dangers it poses, and less distracted by other concerns.  (I agree this has nothing to do with goodness or evil, in and of itself.)

Incidentally, in-game, obviously the "real" answer says a lot about Morrigan, too.  So it matters for that purpose, if you're curious about your companions character.

This is a massively different situation. She's not even denying that she's guilty, if it's true she's done a hell of a lot more than murder, she's consorted with demons, and if we're wrong, a friend of ours (well, possibly) will be killed and her body stolen.

[kormesios]

cpip wrote...
Interestingly, my wife viewed it the same way; and so Elissa Cousland told them both "To Hell With You and Your Games" and walked away from them both.

Honestly, I liked Flemeth's response to that one.  "What?  Neither tune?  Just walk off the floor?  Now that is a different dance."

One almost got the impression that Flemeth and Morrigan HAVE played a game before of trying to kill each other...

A better ending to the mess, IMHO.  I actually did kill Flemeth, it was the one time I "cheated" on role playing--I really did want to see if that would give me an answer.

Aderis wrote...
I don't remember the book being fake, perhaps it was
'left' behind on purpose to be taken by the Templar's so that Morrigan
could find it on purpose or so others could find it. What we do know is
what we have been told and the tale behind Flemeth and the 'Witch of
the Wild'. This leaves little to no evidence as to any solid
information.

I think Morrigan says it wasn't "Flemeth's real grimoire."   In context, she meant it wasn't the book with the most powerful spells, not necessarily that it wasn't by Flemeth.  It did make me question the provenance of the thing, though.

As in all other aspects of this quest, at least for me, any attempt to examine the evidence more closely (by reading the grimoire myself, or grilling Morrigan more closely) is futile.

[cpip]

kormesios wrote...
A better ending to the mess, IMHO.  I actually did kill Flemeth, it was the one time I "cheated" on role playing--I really did want to see if that would give me an answer.

Disappointingly, when we returned to camp there was no change from Morrigan at all, and no new conversation path, where she might rage at us for "abandoning" her.

[Driveninhifi]

The only answer we can really say is "We don't know."



What do we know?

It's indicated that Flemeth has at least some ability to predict the future.

Flemeth is s very powerful shapeshifter.

Flemeth planned to have Morrigan carry a baby with the dragon's essence.

I think we can also conclude Morrigan's upbringing wasn't what you'd call "happy." She wasn't allowed to have her own things, to be a kid - Flemeth tried to harden her against the world. Why? We don't know. It could be because Morrigan was born to carry out this duty and Flemeth didn't want any distractions. It could be that Flemeth didn't want her daughter to ever fall in love and get hurt emotionally (whoops - she's a mess even if you don't do the romance with her). It could be that Flemeth is just a jerk.



We don't know.

[RunCDFirst]

For an abomination, she certainly displays a great deal of compassion.

I mean, all the other abominations I run into either want to turn me into a gibbering mass of mutated flesh, or just wish to feast on my soul. Flemeth, instead, rescued me from a tower and gave me her daughter to take care of.

We learn very little in the game. The relationship between Morrigan and Flemeth is never truly stated and we have no reliable evidence either way. In the end, you choose which version you'd like to believe is true. Frankly, I spare the two of them and leave them to play their petty games with each other.

[kormesios]

Serogon wrote...
This is a massively different situation. She's not even denying that she's guilty, if it's true she's done a hell of a lot more than murder, she's consorted with demons, and if we're wrong, a friend of ours (well, possibly) will be killed and her body stolen.

As I've said before:

- She seems utterly indifferent, consistently, to what you believe.
- "Consorting with demons" is not established*
- The friend is inherently unreliable, and clearly interested in profiting from the murder of Flemeth.  classic femme fatale type stuff: "My mean bad husband is dangerous.  Could you kill him for me, honey-pie?  Then we can be together!  And, don't make it look like a suicide, because then I don't get the insurance money!"


*To be honest, I probably need to re-examine Morrigan's version of the story.  The facts that I remember are (1) Flemeth was cheated and her lover treacherously murdered, (2) she used magic to wreak some pretty terrible vengeance, (3) this was centuries ago, with nothing similar happening since, (4) Morrigan is non-commital about whether the magic was "demonic" or from other fade spirits.**  If you view the crimes as having no statute of limitiations, and yourself as the "arm of the law", you're probably on decent evidentiary grounds here; but she's not much worse in that story than my City Elf, so I wouldn't want to go there.

**OK, "consorting" is probably literally true, since whatever spritis helped her weren't benevolent.  However, "consorting" is an interesting word; certainly the mage PC "consorts" with a sloth demon in his harrowing.  She certainly doesn't look or act like the other abominations we've seen, so if she really is "merged" with a spirit I'd say the evidence is that it's not one of the typical ones that crosses over.

Modifié par kormesios, 24 novembre 2009 - 06:45 .

[Draguling]

She's a woman.

[Original182]

kormesios wrote...
Assuming Morrigan's first tale is roughly correct, it's still ambiguous.  It's well established that people can be posessed by non-evil fade spirits--Wynne, for example.  Obviously Flemeth isn't on a massive killing spree these days--Morrigan says she never actually saw her kidnap any men, like in the stories.

No I'm not saying Flemeth is evil because she's an apostate. I'm saying
she's evil because she consorted with a demon. Not a spirit like Wynne,
but a demon. Both Chasind lore and Morrigan's version speak of this.

We can then see who is good or evil based on their deeds. Wynne is possessed by a spirit, and has gone on to do good deeds.
Flemeth is possessed by a demon, and has gone on to do things like possessing daughters to lengthen her own life, killing Templars instead of using her powers to remain in hiding, etc. If Flemeth truly isn't evil, you can see it from her deeds.

So far, I haven't seen a single good piece of evidence on this thread that Flemeth is what she's described as.  We have people who've never met her saying she's horrible.  And Morrigan--who witnessed nothing especially evil, but claims to have read evil stuff "by" Flemeth in a a fake book owned by the Templars.

To put it a different way: I was half-expecting, once I gave the book to Morrigan, to find from Morrigan that it was all a mistake one way or another.  Either the first grimoire was a forgery by the Templars, or it was a plan by Flemeth to help Morrigan "come into her own".  Obviously neither one happened, but would this have been inconsistent with *any* of the evidence we had before we murdered her?

Of all the living people in Ferelden, Morrigan is the only one who knows the most about Flemeth. If she says that Flemeth really intends to possess Morrigan to lengthen her life, it is then true based on the virtue that she knows Flemeth.

If Flemeth is capable of possessing Morrigan, you can almost be sure that she is capable of the evils that she did in the past.

[Original182]

RunCDFirst wrote...

For an abomination, she certainly displays a great deal of compassion.
I mean, all the other abominations I run into either want to turn me into a gibbering mass of mutated flesh, or just wish to feast on my soul. Flemeth, instead, rescued me from a tower and gave me her daughter to take care of.

Flemeth saved you not due to compassion. It was revealed near the end
that Flemeth rescued you, because it was her plan to have Morrigan have
a Grey Warden's baby that contains the essence of the Old God.

[Ravenshrike]

Is she evil? Probably. Does she actually do anything outright 'evil' in the game? No, no she doesn't. Unless you cooperate with her about lying to her daughter. Tricking her daughter into wearing the Robes of Possession is quite evil, and doing so makes the character you're currently playing irrevocably evil, no matter how many nice they do in their life.


As for those who say there's no evidence of her possessing her daughters, you're assuming that the devs are merely ****ing with our heads when they named the Robes of Possession. Which in game makes absolutely no sense.

Modifié par Ravenshrike, 24 novembre 2009 - 06:58 .

[JamesX]

Flemmeth share many quality we define as evil.

Considering the various example Morrigan have given for her mother.

Such as using men up for her own goals. Expect her daughter to do the same when coming of age. Completely disregard for life of others. Power and Survival is all that matters. And a ruthlessness that is pretty much sociopathic.

[asaiasai]

That is a very interesting question you have posed there OP, and i for one am glad to discuss with my fellow gamers.

I think the first order is to decide what is evil if that is even possible as good and evil are just really definitions of each other as in evil is not good, or good is not evil. The issue become a matter of perspective, so for example i as a grey warden find out the the populace of Lotharin for better or worse has decided to throw its lot in with the dark spawn to avoid a massacre at the hands of the horde. To prevent this action from becoming a bigger problem, to prevent the dark spawn from gaining a viable foothold in the south of Fereldin i decide to burn the village to the ground and put to the sword all those who did not escape. Am i evil? The answer could be yes depending upon who you ask, Eamon might say that i was right, the villagers might say i was wrong and am evil.

So now the question of Flemeth is framed in the proper context. I think that in a manner similar to the lady of the forest (winterfang) Flemeth is the personification of the spirit of the Kokari Wilds. Flemeth does not go looking for the templars, it is the templars that look for Flemeth. By Morrigans own admission Flemeth would warn them, abiet only once, the option to pursue was the templars alone. Very much like a lioness making a game of killing a gazelle for her cubs to teach them the skills they will need to use to survive, such is i feel the relationship of Flemeth to Morrigan. Is a lioness who kills a gazelle evil? Is the hyena that steals the kill from the lion evil? Both creatures have the right to exist, and they do what they must to continue that existence, is the world, the circumstance if you will, that pits these two predators against each other evil. An argument could be made that neither the lion or hyena is evil just surviving and we could just wash our hands of the whole argument calling it settled, except for one more variable, we have not weighed the opinion of the gazelle. From the perspective of the gazelle who just wants to run, jump, mate and eat grass, could they not consider the lion or hyena evil? To disregard thier perspective would imho be evil.

Some would argue that there is no excuse for killing while eating a ham sandwich. Some would claim the higher moral ground because of their no meat principal, while standing on that same ground in leather shoes and fashion accessories. It boils down to intent, to nourish your body you eat meat, because of the durability and cost effectivness of leather you buy shoes made of that material. IMHO there are only 3 characters in the game that are examples of wisdom, compassion,  tolerance, and have a general sense of being able to put themselves second for the benefit of another. Those characters are, the Lady of the Forest, Flemeth, and Arl Eamon, those three characters are the true heros in the game and good or evil is decided by you the player charcter as you adhere to or stray from thier examples.

Asai

[Aderis]

Remembering a conversation with Wynne, a person is not an abomination if they allow a demon inside and maintain their own mind and body. Due to the nature however of Flemeth we can tell neither whether or not the demon is controlling her like Uldred or whether she took the demon and obtained it's power completely.



Flemeth didn't just have the opportunity to acquire the baby containing the essence of an Old God but she also could not defeat the Blight alone. Anything can die, even gods, and I'm fairly certain since we could kill Flemeth the Darkspawn Horde would have no trouble over-whelming her.



Note: It was also stated that the more power that the vessel had the easier the transition from body to body would be and thus the more Morrigan grew into her power with you the easier time Flemeth would have possessing her. That is, of course, at least what the book said but that still relies completely on how much we truly knew.

[SLPr0]

I do not believe Flemeth is evil.

The spirit possessing her has no concept of good, nor evil.

Given her form shift, if you kill her, to a high dragon, I am assuming we are dealing with something far deeper than the understanding of the game allows us to understand.

But not killing her illicits negative reactions, not just from Morrigan but also from Wynne and Leliana (which is odd that they'd reactive negatively to you deciding NOT to murder someone...or some thing).

And there is also the possible negative epilogue outcome that if you do not kill her and do not take Morrigan's deal, that she eventually catches up with Morrigan and "kills" her, but given what we know of the stories of Flemeth's life extension method, "killing" Morrigan more likely implies finding her and possessing her successfully, thusly opening up Flemeth as a further ally or even potentially an adversary in future content.

Overall I do not really understand how they intend to reconcile the epistemology of the epilogue variants, once they expand on this IP. Without ignoring them totally, or forcing a "one epilogue" view to establish the "reality" of the next chapter of this IP in an interactive medium.

Modifié par SLPr0, 24 novembre 2009 - 07:04 .

[kormesios]

Original182 wrote...

No I'm not saying Flemeth is evil because she's an apostate. I'm saying
she's evil because she consorted with a demon. Not a spirit like Wynne,
but a demon. Both Chasind lore and Morrigan's version speak of this.

Morrigan's version is coy about the demonic nature.

We can then see who is good or evil based on their deeds. Wynne is possessed by a spirit, and has gone on to do good deeds.
Flemeth is possessed by a demon, and has gone on to do things like possessing daughters to lengthen her own life,

Pure hearsay (see more details below)

killing Templars instead of using her powers to remain in hiding, etc. If Flemeth truly isn't evil, you can see it from her deeds.

Pure self defence.  Under no accounts is she hunting Templars; she's lvining in the woods, trying to avoid them. Unless you're buying the Chantry argument ("All mages must submit to the templars")  then this is the weakest of the evil arguments, IMHO.

Of all the living people in Ferelden, Morrigan is the only one who knows the most about Flemeth. If she says that Flemeth really intends to possess Morrigan to lengthen her life, it is then true based on the virtue that she knows Flemeth.

As I said, this is nth-hand gossip.  It does NOT come from Morrigan's own knowledge; it supposedly comes from something she reads in a book the Templars had, which she believes is Flemeth's (although she mis-identified it at first).  But she apparently has no inkling of it from direct, personal observation of Flemeth.  So calling Morrigan as an expert witness, when Morrigan is passing on things she hasn't observed herself, doesn't work.

Note the limited other evidence we have doesn't corroborate (or contradict) this.  Morrigan claims that this "explains" why she's never met the rumored other witches, when it does nothing of the sort--according to the "posess your daughter" theory, there'd still only be one daughter at a time, so clearly the Chasind legends are either just wrong or out of date.

In addition, even if you think Morrigan *did* know what was true, you have the reliability problem: Morrigan stands to gain considerable power from Flemeth's murder, and demonstrates herself to be concerned primarily with power.  Attempting to get more evidence from Morrigan boils down to her saying "Trust me, and don't talk to Flemeth!  She'll just deny it.  And make sure you bring me the spell book."  So why believe Morrigan?

[Aderis]

......*Quote's everything within Asai's post and walks off* That answers everything.

[Fishy]

Yes Morrigan she's evil and demoniac .. That prob why she fall in love with the PC.