129 réponses à ce sujet

[Tennmuerti]

Lughsan35 wrote...

Perception IS reality... without it there is.... nothing...

Whoa man thats deep, I need a puff before this makes sence.


PS: On a serious note I dont think that your explanation will make it any clearer for the person you are replying to

[Lughsan35]

Tennmuerti wrote...

Lughsan35 wrote...

Perception IS reality... without it there is.... nothing...

Whoa man thats deep, I need a puff before this makes sence.


PS: On a serious note I dont think that your explanation will make it any clearer for the person you are replying to

Its not really for him that the reply is there.. but for others that might think that taking the blinders off and actually thinking for themselves is a good idea...

[Buddhess75]

I do not believe Flemmeth is evil.
She sounds much more (like Morrigan) like a completely neutral character whom does what she has to in order to survive and to reach her final goals.

On Flemmeth being an abomination

A lot of people are going on about that Flemmeth is an Abomination...BUT...If you ever spoken to Wynne in the game and paid attention to what happens around you, you should have noticed a few things about abominations:

[*]1. Their desire for destruction, bloodshed. Their insanity and depravity.

[*]2. Their bodies change. They become monters, a mix of whatever humanoid race they were + demon. 

Flemmeth has neither. If she did merge with a spirit, it was in the same fashion Wynne did. So she could actually have merged her soul with a good spirit. I know its possible to argue that Flemmeth is only assuming the shape of a human and hiding the real abomination self, however, I really doubt she would -age- while shapeshifted. If Morrigan's discovery is real, Flemmeth did age and therefore, she cannot be an abomination.

Also, it is also possible to Argue that  Abominations do not undergo any physical change because Connor did not
change…However I don’t believe Connor went through a full transformation  as the demon was mind controlling him from the fade and not inside his body/merged with his soul.

On herself and her relationship with Morrigan

I believe Flemmeth is far more than we are revealed and my interpretation of the information we are given is that Flemmeth is either part of a Dragon Cult or a very old and powerful High dragon (One that dates to the time where the Old gods were around), or even something even more powerful (but in theory benevolent).

Either way, nothing that Flemmeth has done and was proved makes her evil. She killed the templars that wanted to kill her, in self defense. She did use Morrigan as a bait, but we are talking about a group of 5+ templars who have abilities that nullify all magic from a certain area. A direct confrontation is extremely stupid, no matter how strong Flemmeth is. 

Also by using Morrigan as a bait, she is sort of protecting Morrigan from the templars as they would look at the scared kid as a VICTIM from the evil witch, and not the child of the witch. 

As for how she raised Morrigan, she did it the way she could given the life they were living. She taught Morrigan that all that matters is their own survival and everything else society lives is passing or futile. She brought Morrigan to the  cruel and cold reality, but that surely made it less painful for Morrigan. Could you imagine Morrigan living that life if she were as naïve/innocent/in denial as Alister is? Or Leliana? 

On the legends.

The worse they are, the more evil they make Flemmeth sound like, the better. It’s simple logic, if everyone believes Flemmeth is satan on earth, only a few would be brave enough to confront her. The legends make people fear Flemmeth. Fear protects her from others. And I also believe that her Grimoire is fake/just another lie she threw in the fire to take people away from her real identity/purposes.

On the grimoire and the “eternal life” Ritual

Flemmeth never confirmed if that was true or not. It is a valid explanation for there always being only 1 daughter,
but there are other possible and as logical explanations. 

If Flemmeth had 3 daughters at the same time, it would be a lot harder to survive in the wilds. They would need more food, a bigger hut, they would make more noise, leave a trail behind, fight with each other for  “mommy’s approval, and overall, the chances they would be found and killed are far bigger than if they were only 2 people.
 
Flemmeth has sort of lived trying to teach Morrigan that you are ultimately alone in the world and its only survival
of the fittest. Try doing that when you have a real family. It wouldn’t be surprising if some decided to run away because it was too harsh on them, that they would turn against each other or even betray them openly in order to have her “freedom”. 

So basically…It could have been that Flemmeth did not want to be all alone herself and wanted the company of another human being, thus having a daughter. And she had to teach that daughter all she knew, she would keep herself busy and not go insane…Can you imagine living for centuries on your own or being chased all the time? It surely would drive someone completely mad.

It could have been that the previous daughters died in the wilds or of age and when that happened Flemmeth simply got a new baby to raise. 

And it could also be that Flemmeth herself cannot have babies and she has been waiting for a new Blight to come
all those centuries, simply waiting to get a chance of retrieving the soul of an Old God…And if she were to do that, she would need a human to bear the child.

And of course, the ritual could be true and in the end she was hoping to take over Morrigan’s body, but that ritual
does not explain WHY in the fade she would send Morrigan AWAY when the Blight was right on her doorstep and she could die, or Morrigan could die in the trip. Morrigan did say that Flemmeth should survive the loss of her physical body, but with the body destroyed her spirit would be taken to the fade and it would take a looong time for her to get a new body or something similar. Morrigan could be dead by the time that happens and Flemmeth wouldn’t have her as a vessel anymore. Sounds like a real stupid plan.

I honestly see no reason behind sending your vessel into a dangerous mission when you are in danger yourself. It sounds too illogical to me.

So yeah…wall of text but, nay, Flemmeth ain’t evil, shes gonna be the real good lady at the end of the series imho.:innocent:

[Tennmuerti]

Buddhess75 wrote...

So yeah…wall of text but, nay, Flemmeth ain’t evil, shes gonna be the real good lady at the end of the series imho.:innocent:

Sure she is the soul of altruism itself. Mybe she and Wynne can join up and knit you a pair of socks.
Godamn I just imagined Flemmeth and Wynne getting it on >< That's it my entire day is ruined. Thank you oh so much

[Buddhess75]

That was sacarsm.

[Tennmuerti]

Buddhess75 wrote...

That was sacarsm.

Sigh ... I know. So was my reply.

[Buddhess75]

I know yours was too, but i thought it was better to just say it before someone would not read the post and get to wrong conclusions

[Original182]

[quote]Buddhess75 wrote...

On Flemmeth being an abomination

Flemmeth has neither. If she did merge with a spirit, it was in the same fashion Wynne did. So she could actually have merged her soul with a good spirit. I know its possible to argue that Flemmeth is only assuming the shape of a human and hiding the real abomination self, however, I really doubt she would -age- while shapeshifted. If Morrigan's discovery is real, Flemmeth did age and therefore, she cannot be an abomination.[/quote]
[/quote]

Morrigan's account says that Flemeth called on the spirits to kill that noble husband. Making a pact with the demon is afterwards. I do not believe it is just mere semantics, it is a demon that Flemeth made a pact with, not a [possibly good] spirit.

You have to give an example of how being an abomination prevents you from aging. Flemeth aging doesn't mean she's not an abomination.
Consider that Flemeth has been living for a REALLY long time, and the fact that she only aged recently was probably just an indication that her current body is almost up.

[quote]
On the legends.

And I also believe that her Grimoire is fake/just another lie she threw in the fire to take people away from her real identity/purposes.[/quote]

If you are talking about the Grimoire from the Circle of Mages tower, Morrigan doesn't think it's a fake. Morrigan herself thinks that it is real enough, and as someone who knows Flemeth personally, she even acknowledged that it is something Flemeth would do.
If it was just a fake thing that the Chantry created to discredit Flemeth, Morrigan is smart enough to know that.

[quote]
On the grimoire and the “eternal life” Ritual

And it could also be that Flemmeth herself cannot have babies and she has been waiting for a new Blight to come
all those centuries, simply waiting to get a chance of retrieving the soul of an Old God…And if she were to do that, she would need a human to bear the child. [/quote]

You breezed through that as if wanting to bear a child with the soul of an Old God is the most natural thing in the world! It doesn't make Flemeth more innocent!

[quote]And of course, the ritual could be true and in the end she was hoping to take over Morrigan’s body, but that ritual
does not explain WHY in the fade she would send Morrigan AWAY when the Blight was right on her doorstep and she could die, or Morrigan could die in the trip.[/quote]

Morrigan's asked the very same question here, and she said that Flemeth wanted her to become stronger, as it is faster to possess a host that is already strong. She also said that Flemeth must have had a lot of confidence in her to not fear Morrigan dying in the process. An ironic vote of confidence. No illogical impossibilities.

You raise a daughter only to want to possess and kill her. A mother who would kill her own daughter. If that is not evil, I really don't know what is.

I feel like we have a lot of Flemeth sympathizers who are holding on to the tiniest of possibilities to cast her in good light. It's very clear Flemeth is evil.

[Grisson]

I recall reading that in the end of the game, should you not kill Flemeth, and not take up Morrigans offer; Morrigan's ending says something along the lines of being killed by Flemeth.



I could be wrong.

[Original182]

Grisson wrote...

I recall reading that in the end of the game, should you not kill Flemeth, and not take up Morrigans offer; Morrigan's ending says something along the lines of being killed by Flemeth.

I could be wrong.

I've read that as well, but in my first completed game, I did not kill Flemeth, and didn't take up Morrigan's offer as well. But in my ending, Morrigan went to Orlais and worked with the Queen of Orlais or something.

It could be a buggy game that messes up the choices that you made, or maybe you need to do another sequence of choices to trigger that ending. But I don't think anyone would make something like that up, so it bears investigation.

[Nimander]

The whole abomination thing reminds me of Bujold's Curse of Chalion world.



Most people who get possessed by demons are totally corrupted by them and the demon's in control. Demons are a force of destruction. However... once in a rare while due to weird events, or because someone with a certain ability decides it, they can 'force' a union where the person gets the demon's abilities without them losing their control. It requires someone with a strong will and/or a strong sense of ethics.



I look at abominations the same way. Most abominations are just totally possessed by the demon. Some of them can be in control themselves, either because it's a beneficial spirit (Wynne) or because something happened that caused a real merger (Flemeth).



Now, is Flemeth evil? I lean towards yes. But I could be wrong.

[Buddhess75]

I've completed the game with both not killing Flemmeth and not giving Morrigan the ritual and i got the same thing, she went to orlais.



Im not really saying Flemmeth is a saint, but i honestly doubt she is purely evil and im pretty certain her reasons are for a greater good cause rather than only herself.



It WAS her plan since the moment she sent Morrigan to get her pregant with an Old god. Morrigan confirms that as much as she "confirms" the ritual presented in the grimoire.

[Nosuchluck]

I'm guessing Flemeth only bothers stealing Morrigans body if she's pregnant with the god-child. Flemeth probably plans to raise it as her own then posses it herself so she gain power/immortality. Morrigan has probably got the same plans for the child.

I think Flemeth is evil. Not pure evil mind you but she's obviously a manipulative selfish ****.Let's face it she raised a child for the sole reason of stealing it's body when it was old enough and has probably done it countless times before.

Then again saying that I'd do the same as her if it would give me immortality.

Modifié par Nosuchluck, 24 novembre 2009 - 11:39 .

[The Angry One]

Flemeth is Captain Janeway... so of course she's evil.

[torath77]

My interpretation:

Lets assume that some of those legends are true, meaning flemeth did overtake her "daughters".
They were not her real daughters, though. But Morrigan was her real child.

So Flemeth didn't need to overtake her, because something of her at least her heritage will live on in Morrigan.
But she had the plan with the ritual and she had also to make sure, that Morrigan will get a powerful child, so that that part of Flemeth will also make it to another generation.

This is why she choose the final test for the warden, beat her in her dragonform. That scene seemed strange, when you first got there,  it looked as it was just a game for Flemeth. But it was just her plan to get killed.  If the manages to kill a dragon, he can kill the arch demon too and the plan will work out.

I think that Flemeth was very evil, but with Morrigan this changed. With a real daughter she didn't have to those things anymore and she could choose death, as she knew that she will not really be dead and her heritage will live on.

[torath77]

double post

Modifié par torath77, 24 novembre 2009 - 11:42 .

[nuculerman]

Lughsan35 wrote...

nuculerman wrote...

Lughsan35 wrote...

You all are missing out on one of the great exestentials of exsistance... Good and Evil are perspectives..

That which is with me = Good. That which is against me = Evil.

Rome v Carthage. Carthage thought itself good. Rome though them evil. Both were correct, and the winners right the history.

There is no good or evil there simply is stuff. Its what the apple did to you...

Agreeable = good... things that cause me pain = evil...

That's nonsensical.  Perception has no impact on reality.  Existence exists.  A is A.  Right is right and wrong is wrong.  You may think murder is good because you did the murdering, but your perception has no impact on the reality that it was wrong.

If you haven't already, you'll eventually realize that what you just argued is Flemeth's exact philosophy.  And Lord Voldemort's.  Which is pretty funny.

Why is Flemeth evil?  Well, even if we can't know anything Morrigan or legend says about her is true, try talking to the woman.  She believes there is power and there is weakness.  The weak deserve death and the powerful deserve to rule.  Thus, she is evil.  End of argument.

Perception IS reality... without it there is.... nothing.. by your definition Nature itself is EVIL and therefor should be destroyed...

Hope you enjoy living in a vacuum, as anything that espouses 'the strong survive and the weak die' is abhorent right?

The arguement only ends because deep inside you realize how utterly feeble your position and that of the 'glad tidings for all' set really is...

Another example a Hurricane is EVIL because it destroys all the weak structures and humans too stupid to flee before it...  mmm yeah right.. the Hurricane is EVIL because some people were stupid and or lazy...yeah right..

That makes less than zero sense.  Strawmen much?  Nature is evil and should be destroyed?  Are you twelve?  How did you get that out of my statement?

You act like I argued against natural selection, when instead I argued against the personal philosophy that power is a virtue.  Power is hardly the only way, let alone the best way, to survive.  The difference between natural selection and Flemeth and your personal philosophy is that a person does not have the moral right to dictate who is weak and who is not.

And, perception is reality?  Whose perception is reality?  Yours? When you die, does reality cease to exist?  The universe exists outside your perception of it.  I'm sorry.  I'm sure you've thought you were important and integral for all these years when instead you're just another insignificant, infinitely small speck on an equally insignificant, infinitely small planet, in an equally insignificant, infinitely small galaxy, within an equally insignificant Universe.  By your definition, color blind people have the right of it.  And so do you.  So your christmas tree is green AND red.  

Eventually you'll understand Aristotle's law of contradictions.  Eventually you'll realize that perception, least of all yours, has less than zero impact on the nature of our existence.  If we all died, the universe wouldn't magically cease to exist.  It would still be there, simply sans a human race.

"If a tree falls and no one is there to hear it, does it still make a sound?"

Unfortunately, yes, it does.  

[nuculerman]

Tennmuerti wrote...

Lughsan35 wrote...

Perception IS reality... without it there is.... nothing...

Whoa man thats deep, I need a puff before this makes sence.


PS: On a serious note I dont think that your explanation will make it any clearer for the person you are replying to

How is that an explanation or deep?  It's a mantra that's been repeated by pot heads and second rate philosopher's since either existed.  It's also disproved incredibly easily by the existence of deaf people, blind people, color blind people, people with permanent damage to their nervous system, mentally retarded people, people in comas, and the fact people don't have superpowers or vast amounts of wealth because, let's face it, the vast majority of us wish those things and could even convince ourselves that we have them if it meant we could get them.

[Buddhess75]

Original182 wrote...

Morrigan's account says that Flemeth called on the spirits to kill that noble husband. Making a pact with the demon is afterwards. I do not believe it is just mere semantics, it is a demon that Flemeth made a pact with, not a [possibly good] spirit.

You have to give an example of how being an abomination prevents you from aging. Flemeth aging doesn't mean she's not an abomination.
Consider that Flemeth has been living for a REALLY long time, and the fact that she only aged recently was probably just an indication that her current body is almost up.

Again, what Morrigan tells you could be a lie, you never know. Flemmeth could have lied. Im not closing myself to any possibilities tho, i could be plain wrong about it and i wouldnt mind. its fun to especulate.

The thing about aging is, as I see, a full abomination becomes a monster and doesn't retain a human body. What I don't believe to be possible is that a shapeshifted form of an abomination would age.

If you are talking about the Grimoire from the Circle of Mages tower, Morrigan doesn't think it's a fake. Morrigan herself thinks that it is real enough, and as someone who knows Flemeth personally, she even acknowledged that it is something Flemeth would do.
If it was just a fake thing that the Chantry created to discredit Flemeth, Morrigan is smart enough to know that.

If I gave you a document proving that the government considers you a traitor and will have you killed, wouldn't you be scared to death?

I think that Morrigan could have just panicked after reading the book, somehow i also find it hard that Flemmeth would keep such a valuable grimoire close to her. Her daughters could have just opened the book when she was not looking..and boom..something would happen...And dunno, if you have been doing that ritual over and over...I would have it scrapped on the back of my brain and wouldn't need a book to tell me how to do it. But thats just me.

I did not say the Chantry created the grimoire. Flemmeth herself created it, to protect/direct the atention to something else that is not the truth.

You breezed through that as if wanting to bear a child with the soul of an Old God is the most natural thing in the world! It doesn't make Flemeth more innocent!

Thats not the most natural thing in the world. But im one that believes the Maker is the evil thing here and the Old Gods are the good ones. So that makes Flemmeth and Morrigan look better in my eyes.

Morrigan's asked the very same question here, and she said that Flemeth wanted her to become stronger, as it is faster to possess a host that is already strong. She also said that Flemeth must have had a lot of confidence in her to not fear Morrigan dying in the process. An ironic vote of confidence. No illogical impossibilities.

You raise a daughter only to want to possess and kill her. A mother who would kill her own daughter. If that is not evil, I really don't know what is.

I feel like we have a lot of Flemeth sympathizers who are holding on to the tiniest of possibilities to cast her in good light. It's very clear Flemeth is evil.

Thats the problem. It is contraditory that Flemmeth would send Morrigan away because she needs to get the Old God soul and at the same time, want to use Morrigan as a vessel.

You can't just ignore the fact that Morrigan knew she was with the group merely to get the Old god soul at the end. And that was hers and Flemmeth's plan all along...Morrigan lied to you when she said she did not know why Flemmeth sent her with you.


Of course, Flemmeth could just be taking the risk of losing Morrigan because she thought that having the Old god for her own purposes (and not greater good as I believe) was worth it.

I don't know if you ever read the books, but Flemmeth also saves King Maric and Loghain and she tells them that a Blight is coming and that Loghain would betray Maric in the future. 

It seems too odd that she would do such things to me only because she wants to survive...How in the hell would she have known all that? She is not only an evil witch of the wilds.

[Tennmuerti]

nuculerman wrote...

Tennmuerti wrote...

Lughsan35 wrote...

Perception IS reality... without it there is.... nothing...

Whoa man thats deep, I need a puff before this makes sence.


PS: On a serious note I dont think that your explanation will make it any clearer for the person you are replying to

How is that an explanation or deep?  It's a mantra that's been repeated by pot heads and second rate philosopher's since either existed.  It's also disproved incredibly easily by the existence of deaf people, blind people, color blind people, people with permanent damage to their nervous system, mentally retarded people, people in comas, and the fact people don't have superpowers or vast amounts of wealth because, let's face it, the vast majority of us wish those things and could even convince ourselves that we have them if it meant we could get them.

LoL exacly like I said.

/whoooooosh

[highcastle]

It's tough for me to believe anyone is purely evil without firsthand evidence. And what do we have for Flemeth? Just secondhand sources, some of them (Morrigan) with plenty of reasons to lie or exaggerate the truth. But the only things we actually see Flemeth doing are saving our lives, handing over the Grey Warden treaties, and helping to arm us against the darkspawn. Now, folks who said these could be self-serving are right. They absolutely could be. The bottom line is that there's just not enough evidence to get a clear picture of Flemeth. She could be an evil, manipulative Witch of the Wilds. Or she could be someone who's lived so long, she perceives the world around her differently from everyone else, and does what needs to be done to keep it functioning (i.e. to quell the Blight). I think she's purposefully ambiguous, and anyone who looks at her as purely good or purely evil is missing some of those shades of gray. I had a hard time deciding to kill her, and I think my next playthrough I'll leave her alive and see what happens.

[Valmy]

Compared to most apostate mages you meet she is not bad at all.

She simply is not trustworthy and sketchy. Both she and her daughter have some sort of agenda and I have no idea what it is besides my character is pawn to one extent or another.

Despite that their help was much appreciated....well right up until Morrigan's "offer".  Yeah that wasn't creepy or anything.

Modifié par Valmy, 24 novembre 2009 - 02:57 .

[RazorrX]

I think Flemeth is amoral. I think she is more like Wynne than most Abominations. Perhaps it took time, or whatever but she is lucid (for the most part) and seems to remember her past. She remembers it enough to comment that she hates that she was beautiful, as it set the path for all that came.



IMO (and just IMO) Flemeth has been taking over her daughters for generations. I Think this is true. I think this is because of the spirit inside her. It seems that the spirit allows her *some* free will, but not *total* free will. ("I believe . . . do I? Why yes I do.") Flemeth has had daughters who survivied before. Zev mentions this fact to Morrigan, that there are other swamp witches in the world.



It could be that Flemeth feels that *IF* Morrigan has the demon child and absorbs its power, that her demon would not be able to take her over. Thus Flemeth would end up taking over a chasind child vs her own child, and another daughter would live. The spirit would probably want Morrigan to have the demon child so that it is more powerful in the long run. In this way they both agree to let Morrigan go with the Grey Wardens.



Flemeth saves the treaties because she knows they are important. She is still Flemeth after all. She saves you because she needs someone to fight the arch demon which threatens even her. She sends Morrigan in hopes that if you win, her daughter will be free of her curse (and she can take someone else instead). She allows you to fight her because she needs to test you (see if you are powerful enough to win vs Archdemon) and she (the person part) wants you to save her daughter.



anyway that is what I got out of it. I do not think she is a good person or a bad one. I think she is just Flemeth.

[Tyrias Greysong]

Good thing about dark fantasy is, there is no evil.



Everyone does something morally questionable. Flemeth's too complicated to simply call "evil" anyway!

[mrao]

Tennmuerti wrote...



LoL exacly like I said.

/whoooooosh

You know, if you're going to be condescending to a person you don't agree with, it helps to give some explanation.

Anyway, she is an apostate mage, hated and hunted by society simply for being such. Her darwinian mentality seems like one I would expect from a person who has always had to either run or fight to survive. Sure, such an attitute would not help were she living among other humans in a village or something, but when you are constantly on the run in a dangerous forest, it seems like a reasonable defense mechanism. Obviously this does not bar her from being evil, just something to consider. Morrigan says that Flemeth is "as part of the wilds as it is of her". I've always thought that she might be posessed by a particular powerful nature spirit like the one in the dalish ruins, perhaps bound to the korcari wilds.

Modifié par mrao, 24 novembre 2009 - 03:40 .