129 réponses à ce sujet

[red8x]

The Dragon Age world is one riddled with moral relativism.  At best the only moral compass one is given is the PC's and NPCs are either good or evil based on whether they support or oppose your in-game goals. 

There is a reason why the Wardens are not the White Wardens, shining white knights of Camelot off to find the Holy Grail, but rather the Grey Wardens.  Throughout the game there seems to be an emphasis on adopting the philosophy that the ends justify the means.  The Wardens themselves adopt this philosophy becoming tainted in order to fight the taint:  To know your enemy, you must become your enemy. 

Was Flemeth evil or just engaging in self-preservation? 

Our sources on Flemeth are: (1) Leliana's retelling of Flemeth legends, (2) Morrigan's first hand accounts and her own versions of the Flemeth legends and (3) Flemeth herself.  Which ever you choose to believe there is a consistent theme among them - Flemeth engaged in more than just self-preservation.  She murdered.  Survival does not require killing.  She could have hid or fled without resorting to bloodshed. 

I personally think she is Urthemiel, Dragon of Beauty, and Archdemon of the Fifth Blight.  Throughout the game we are repeatedly reminded of Flemeth's (and Morrigan's) beauty.  Also Flemeth herself makes a cryptic comment about having different names.  I like to think it is more than just coincidence.

[Bali_of_Terenas]

A couple other thoughts to throw in the ring.



On the topic of her being possessed I think there are a few things that point to her not being "standardly" possessed. There's the obvious fact that she isn't mutated as many are once possessed but beyond that when we fight her she never switches to the "demon voice" and takes the form of a dragon rather than reverting to a demon form. Not definitive but certainly odd based on all the former demons we fight.



On the topic of the ritual Morrigan asks us to take part in, do we really even know if this was Flemeths plan? When Morrigan tells us about it she's very self assured and flat out states that this was Flemeths plan all along and it's why she sent her with us. However when Morrigan is first sent with the part she's clearly surprised by being volunteered. Beyond that she (assuming the right romance option) sleeps with the PC prior to the ritual (which I assume wouldn't work if she's already pregnant...and it's implied that she might be from the end game story you get if you kill Flemeth and refuse the ritual). Lastly if Flemeth is dead she still offers the ritual which would imply Morrigan has her own reasons for wanting to complete the ritual beyond Flemeths.



Another thought I had was what if this is a case of The Dread Pirate Roberts? Flemeth isn't actually ancient but rather the last "daughter". It's now Morrigans turn to kill the current Flemeth and take over. It does leave the question of what's in it for the current Flemeth but perhaps that's where the spirit angle comes in. It merges with them as Wynnes does but they still get old and die. For a time they get it's power but need to provide a successor so it can continue.



One thing I did find odd was that Morrigan was interested in raising/saving/etc an "Old God" when throughout the game she regularly professes to have no belief in higher powers or ethereal things. Granted dragons are a bit easier to see and be crushed by then the Maker but I would think she would see them as dragons not old gods. Perhaps she's just using the common way of referring to them.



Perhaps it is all tied to some form of dragon cult.

[Dark83]

kormesios wrote...

Morrigan says she never actually saw her kidnap any men, like in the stories.

That's not what she says in the interparty dialog when others ask her.

kormesios wrote...

I disagree 100% that anyone (on this
thread, at least) has provided any remotely convincing arguments that
this what she did/planned to do.

Using metagame knowledge from the wiki, we (the players) know as an absolute fact that this is what she will do based on Morrigan's ending. However, Morrigan's ending changes depending on if you give her the tomes to begin with. I believe that if she never finds out, nothing happens. Could be wrong, though.

Flemeth's dialog when you first speak to her refers to herself as being beautiful once, a long time ago, and being fought for by men. Which matches up with both Morrigan (who was hardly exposed to much information outside of Flemeth's teachings) and Leliana's stories.

nuculerman wrote...

Right is right and wrong is wrong.

That sort of viewpoint has caused more deaths any anything else in man's history.
Religion, you say? Well,
it's the same thing. Anyone's vision of right and wrong is shape dby
their culture which gives them their morals. Certain cultures see no
problem in treating their women like livestock, to always be covered
up, where they are at fault and executed if they "allowed
themselves" to get raped!

[Draco_13]

Buddhess75 wrote...

I don't know if you ever read the books, but Flemmeth also saves King Maric and Loghain and she tells them that a Blight is coming and that Loghain would betray Maric in the future. 

It seems too odd that she would do such things to me only because she wants to survive...How in the hell would she have known all that? She is not only an evil witch of the wilds.

Thanks for that hint, I had almost forgotten that part from the first book. I just had a short look at it to brush up my memories and I wonder what Maric had to promise to Flemeth. Are Cailan and Morrigan of the same age?

But back to topic. I'm missing a more long term approach considering why Flemeth did what she did. I'm aware of the fact that we don't know why she did it, but let's just say she decided to sacrifice 20 generations of her own daughters to make sure she was still alive when the next Blight started to ensure the god child was born. Is that more evil than killing 1 or sometimes 2 out of 3 Grey Warden recruits?

Short-term she did some doubtful things but in the long run it might turn out to be good. If she wanted she could have done real evil things over the years. By shapeshifting into a dragon she could have recruited an army e.g. those sacred ashes dragon cultists. But all she did was hiding in the woods for centuries and keeping her legend alive. Sounds not that evil to me.

[Herr Uhl]

Buddhess75 wrote...

I don't know if you ever read the books, but Flemmeth also saves King Maric and Loghain and she tells them that a Blight is coming and that Loghain would betray Maric in the future. 

Well, history repeats itself I suppose...

But at least I got to be Loghain.

[MBirkhofer]

The game is reasonably clear about this.

Flemeth is a demon that possessed the original Flemeth. It expressly calls her an abomination. She is not a apostate at all.

Shapeshifting is a skill taught by demons/spirits from the fade.
Stealing bodies and moving from one to another to experience life is exactly the behavior of every demon you meet in the game. Sophia, Kitty, Connor, etc.

Wynne is different, as wynne is still Wynne, as the spirit that joined with her, is a "good" spirit and is just along for the ride.
Flemeth is however almost certianly a pride demon, possibly desire, that ate the original Flemeth. Sophia in Wardens Keep shows what happens to an abomination after a while. The demon knows everything the person knew, and thus the demon would have Flemeths, and all her daughters memories.

The actions of the demons are not mindless. They are very self serving. again, note how the desire demons act. They have no malice vs you, and just want you to let them live and feed off of people.
And with this, Flemeth knows the blight is real, and dangerous, and does take action to ensure she lives on.  and considering the Morrigan child aspect, its reasonble to say the demon could very much want to find a way to manipulate it so, that it can try and possess the godchild.

Modifié par MBirkhofer, 24 novembre 2009 - 08:12 .

[SoleSong]

What is worst, using blood from somebody as amunition or using humans, mostly young ones.

The delemma evil or more evil... good or better

[Barrendall]

Draco_13 wrote...

Buddhess75 wrote...

I don't know if you ever read the books, but Flemmeth also saves King Maric and Loghain and she tells them that a Blight is coming and that Loghain would betray Maric in the future. 

It seems too odd that she would do such things to me only because she wants to survive...How in the hell would she have known all that? She is not only an evil witch of the wilds.

Thanks for that hint, I had almost forgotten that part from the first book. I just had a short look at it to brush up my memories and I wonder what Maric had to promise to Flemeth. Are Cailan and Morrigan of the same age?

But back to topic. I'm missing a more long term approach considering why Flemeth did what she did. I'm aware of the fact that we don't know why she did it, but let's just say she decided to sacrifice 20 generations of her own daughters to make sure she was still alive when the next Blight started to ensure the god child was born. Is that more evil than killing 1 or sometimes 2 out of 3 Grey Warden recruits?

Short-term she did some doubtful things but in the long run it might turn out to be good. If she wanted she could have done real evil things over the years. By shapeshifting into a dragon she could have recruited an army e.g. those sacred ashes dragon cultists. But all she did was hiding in the woods for centuries and keeping her legend alive. Sounds not that evil to me.

I don't know, She could have passed her knowledge and power down to her daughters instead of murdering them to ensure the success against the blight.  I figure that's a much better option to not be evil to me.  Always a chance her daughters might not succeed in the task but there was always a chance she wouldn't succeed either.  She ended up dying anyway in my play through.

[Zenon]

Interesting thread. Actually the OP first asks bluntly if Flemeth is evil. Then he rejects answers trying to point out what kind of good or evil we are talking about. Fact is, you can't seriously answer if someone is evil without saying what it means to be evil. I made a more elaborate post somewhere else, so I keep it short and simple: "Good" and "Evil" are moral values determined by the cultural background of the person evaluating or judging another person or the specific act or situation. Perhaps the most universal compass for good and evil may be in favor of life and freedom or in favor of death and enslavement.



Anyway, concerning Flemeth: I read "The stolen Throne" where she helps Maric and even states, that Loghain is going to betray him "each time worse than before". In DA:O she also helps the Grey Wardens with their treaties, saves them Grey Wardens from being killed, only turns hostile after the player insists on fighting her.



One could argue, that this ritual Morrigan is talking about isn't the hero's problem. That's why Flemeth is amused, when the player gets emotionally involved with Morrigan and tries to solve what appears to be a personal fate for Morrigan.



I think Flemeth is a mystery and agree to other posters saying, that she is kind of beyond the simple question of good and evil. My char had a great respect for her and indeed she had saved his life. So he accepted the deal with Flemeth to let her live and just take the grimoire.



In retrospect I wonder if Flemeth can even be completely destroyed by killing her physical form. I'm sure, that Flemeth and especially Morrigan are going to play an important role in any sequel to DA:O.

[daguest]

In retrospect I wonder if Flemeth can even be completely destroyed by killing her physical form. I'm sure, that Flemeth and especially Morrigan are going to play an important role in any sequel to DA:O.

according to morrigan, no. She will take a lot of time, but she will probably come back. She just expect to have enough time to find a way to destroy her.
Flemeth is not above good or evil. She is rotten to the core, and she doesn't care about the blight. She wants morrigan to have a tainted baby from the dead god soul. Then she will take morrigan mind. I don't know for the kid, probably something really dark like take control of him/her and become more powerful. It's her plan since the begining. She saved you just because she needs you in her plan.
I though it was pretty obvious

Modifié par daguest, 24 novembre 2009 - 11:00 .

[SoleSong]

I did not try to kill Flemet at all, did not visite the hut at all before the end. No funny reaction from anybody :-)

[SoleSong]

So we can relax and just wait for the next game about ouer hero and this baby :-) It is like in the Bible... Morrigan is the tree and the apple, without, it would not be nesseasry to send Jesus.

[Alex Savchovsky]

Serogon wrote...

She made killing templars into a game. At the very least she's completely insane.

According to Morrigan, she DID give a fair warning to the templars. So what are you saying, she's insane because she defends herself, killing those who attend killing her? Making fun of killing them is arrogant, sure. But there are no mentions about her torturing the templars or something, which would fit the "Evil" characteristic. She doesn't actively search for templars to have more "fun" (although she DOES have some reason to). So why is she evil or insane?

Btw, daguest... your theory is possible, but until a DLC/expansion/sequel comes out, it remains just a theory. It is just as possible that Flemeth wanted a free Old God for entirely different reasons. It's a matter of choice, really. You choose to believe in it or not. 

Modifié par Alex Savchovsky, 30 novembre 2009 - 04:03 .

[GmanFresh]

in the novels she saves the day as well....ie maric and logain..s o she is good....

[Herr Uhl]

Serogon wrote...

She made killing templars into a game. At the very least she's completely insane.

Come on, are you going to call her evil because she softened the blow for a little child. Are you going to say that the father from "le vita è bella" is evil because he didn't say that the kid was probably going to die in the camp, and instead made it seem like a game to him. Good grief.

[Original182]

Short answer is yes Flemeth is evil.

[EricHVela]

Short answer: Necessary isn't always nice.

[Valmy]

She is incredibly dangerous and is not to be trusted. I don't think she is evil though...but it is hard to tell since we don't know exactly what her plans are yet.

[PuffyTail]

Re: Whether Flemeth is evil...

When you defeat Flemeth and get the "Robes of Possession" for Morrigan, it flat-out states in the item description that the robes were meant as a welcome home present for Morrigan and that they had been enchanted by Flemeth to make Flemeth's possession of Morrigan easier. They lost their powers of possession over Morrigan upon Flemeth's death, though (also according to the item description). So going by that information, the story about Flemeth's possession of her daughters is apparently true. Whether that makes her evil and/or a survivalist is another subject

Modifié par PuffyTail, 30 novembre 2009 - 04:20 .

[lavosslayer]

I think its a red herring to think Flemeth was evil. I think Morrigan and Flemeth are two different shades of Grey and we will see that in the next campaign/game. I think that by "killing" Flemeth and Morrigan having been impregnated by the Greywarden, that Flemeth is actually going to become the new Archdemon and Morrigan will give birth to an Old God (dragon) that will return to aid the Grey Wardens in destroying the blight and begin a new era of tainted old god vs pure old god. Not only that, I think that Morrigan's ultimate goal is to go to the Black City in the Fade and destroy any and all signs of "The Maker" including the entity itself.

[Original182]

PuffyTail wrote...

Re: Whether Flemeth is evil...

When you defeat Flemeth and get the "Robes of Possession" for Morrigan, it flat-out states in the item description that the robes were meant as a welcome home present for Morrigan and that they had been enchanted by Flemeth to make Flemeth's possession of Morrigan easier. They lost their powers of possession over Morrigan upon Flemeth's death, though (also according to the item description). So going by that information, the story about Flemeth's possession of her daughters is apparently true. Whether that makes her evil and/or a survivalist is another subject

Flemeth's plan to possess Morrigan has been proven without a shadow of a doubt. You didn't have to further prove it with your findings, but it helps to re-confirm again and again.

This is the problem. There is so much evidence that Flemeth plans to possess Morrigan, but conspiracy theorists keep trying to spin new theories about how the grimoire has been "faked" by Flemeth to make Morrigan think that's the plan, but was actually done to help Morrigan "come of age", that their theories are somehow more reliable than the "flawed Codex", etc.

With the quest to kill Flemeth in my journal, a few days later I got the option to ask Morrigan whether she was sure she wanted to kill Flemeth or not. Morrigan said there is no doubt, no misunderstanding, she is very sure Flemeth's plan is to possess her.

[smelph]

well I didn't have time to read every post (on my lunch break) but found the topic very interesting. So I have one question:



1: did anyone notice morrigan's story about flemeth differed significantly than the one leliana tells? particularly the details concerning the bard and his death. I can't remember the details at the moment, but it seemed significant at hte time



all in all I think flemeth is neutral. based on conversations with her and morrigan, I think survival is her/their chief motivation, so if they must kill another to survive, so be it. likewise, if they must save a couple gray wardens to ensure the blight (which flemeth says would wipe her out as well) is destroyed, they will. think of it like an animal: a lion isn't good because it protects its young and neither is it evil for killing a zebra. both things are necessities for survival of themselves and their offspring.

[LtlMac]

Bali_of_Terenas wrote...


One thing I did find odd was that Morrigan was interested in raising/saving/etc an "Old God" when throughout the game she regularly professes to have no belief in higher powers or ethereal things. Granted dragons are a bit easier to see and be crushed by then the Maker but I would think she would see them as dragons not old gods. Perhaps she's just using the common way of referring to them.

Perhaps it is all tied to some form of dragon cult.

Not entirely correct....she professes to having no belief in "The Maker".   Perhaps her own beliefs/knowledge about the Old Gods are the foundation in which she opposes the Maker as much as she does.

 It wouldn't surprise me if we found out "The Maker" was actually 'evil' (Think Final Fantasy X--that was a nice plot twist). 

I find the Chantry (and how it's run) down right scary.  Even more so when it is so familiar compared to the real world.

[LtlMac]

PuffyTail wrote...

Re: Whether Flemeth is evil...

When you defeat Flemeth and get the "Robes of Possession" for Morrigan, it flat-out states in the item description that the robes were meant as a welcome home present for Morrigan and that they had been enchanted by Flemeth to make Flemeth's possession of Morrigan easier. They lost their powers of possession over Morrigan upon Flemeth's death, though (also according to the item description). So going by that information, the story about Flemeth's possession of her daughters is apparently true. Whether that makes her evil and/or a survivalist is another subject

Wow I must have missed this.  Definetly the kind of evidence that validates stories and confirms perspectives!   Good find!