113 réponses à ce sujet

[Chozo_Hybrid]

If the single player doesn't suffer for it, then what is the harm? I was skeptical when I first heard about it having multi-player, but I have enjoyed what I have played. Considering I have two other people I live with, with xboxes and will be getting this game, I now think it's awesome.

Creating a balanced team and fight along side ones friends has always been a great experience for me.

So long as the main game has not suffered for it, I don't see the problem.

[ODESSA_Z]

ItsFreakinJesus wrote...

ODESSA_Z wrote...

Dr. rotinaj wrote...

multiplayer duties are being handled by a separate team in Montreal under the direction of Hudson.

But the code is all being done by the coders who do code for the entire game, making the whole - separate teams issue a mute point.

If multiplayer coding was being done by the main team, then the main team would be doing coding, thus making your statement incorrect.  The code is being done by the Montreal team using the engine and assets made by the Bioware A team.  Standard procedure when teams split up to do multiplayer.  One side codes specifically the single player, the other codes specifically the multiplayer using the same pool of assets.

No that is incorrect...There is no separate code for game mechanics, online aspects, graphics....Nice bluff, but I actually know a coder for a major developer under the EA banner...that is not how it works. Nice try though.

[staindgrey]

ODESSA_Z wrote...

ItsFreakinJesus wrote...

If multiplayer coding was being done by the main team, then the main team would be doing coding, thus making your statement incorrect.  The code is being done by the Montreal team using the engine and assets made by the Bioware A team.  Standard procedure when teams split up to do multiplayer.  One side codes specifically the single player, the other codes specifically the multiplayer using the same pool of assets.

No that is incorrect...There is no separate code for game mechanics, online aspects, graphics....Nice bluff, but I actually know a coder for a major developer under the EA banner...that is not how it works. Nice try though.

Drop the elitist undertone for a second. I've got something to say.

The team in Montreal was created after Edmonton had already gone well into production of ME3. Some of the employees were found from elsewhere, some migrated from Edmonton. Both teams were overseen by the same top people. Both teams got the same pool of assets (as mentioned) that Edmonton had started building.

However, after that, they're separate. All of the coding involving character/race creation, online interface, networking, balancing, maps, objectives, ALL of the multiplayer-centric stuff was done in Montreal; none of that was touched by Edmonton. They're separate projects.

Think of it this way. Susie starts a poster. You come in once she's already bought all the posterboard and glitter and markers, and decide you can help by making flyers as well. So you get paper, borrow the markers and stuff she bought, and you create separate things for the same project simultaneously at different desks. THAT is what's happening for the production of ME3.

Really not all that uncommon in the industry.

[ODESSA_Z]

staindgrey wrote...

ODESSA_Z wrote...

ItsFreakinJesus wrote...

If multiplayer coding was being done by the main team, then the main team would be doing coding, thus making your statement incorrect.  The code is being done by the Montreal team using the engine and assets made by the Bioware A team.  Standard procedure when teams split up to do multiplayer.  One side codes specifically the single player, the other codes specifically the multiplayer using the same pool of assets.

No that is incorrect...There is no separate code for game mechanics, online aspects, graphics....Nice bluff, but I actually know a coder for a major developer under the EA banner...that is not how it works. Nice try though.

Drop the elitist undertone for a second. I've got something to say.

The team in Montreal was created after Edmonton had already gone well into production of ME3. Some of the employees were found from elsewhere, some migrated from Edmonton. Both teams were overseen by the same top people. Both teams got the same pool of assets (as mentioned) that Edmonton had started building.

However, after that, they're separate. All of the coding involving character/race creation, online interface, networking, balancing, maps, objectives, ALL of the multiplayer-centric stuff was done in Montreal; none of that was touched by Edmonton. They're separate projects.

Think of it this way. Susie starts a poster. You come in once she's already bought all the posterboard and glitter and markers, and decide you can help by making flyers as well. So you get paper, borrow the markers and stuff she bought, and you create separate things for the same project simultaneously at different desks. THAT is what's happening for the production of ME3.

Really not all that uncommon in the industry.

Both teams got the same pool of assets...I beleive that.

Hence, the CO-OP doesn't "take away" from the SP experience because they share the same pool of assets.
Regardless...this thread is supposed to be about people who want MP modes versus people who don't. I don't care what reasons they give, its all debateable,  I just care that they don't want it. We can go back and forth over minutia from here till eternity...I just want people to understand that if a game developer beleives in their choice to create new modes, they should be able to exercixe that choice without getting beat up and trash talked on their own forums.

alot of these posters don't even realize how denegrating they are to Bioware when they make a comment like, "CO-OP is just a side-track mode." Like the devs who made it don't deserve credit for their hard work.

I'll stick with defending the devs. 

[RDSFirebane]

ODESSA_Z wrote...

alot of these posters don't even realize how denegrating they are to Bioware when they make a comment like, "CO-OP is just a side-track mode." Like the devs who made it don't deserve credit for their hard work.

I'll stick with defending the devs. 

ok well people have a right to get on here and say what ever they want and cry out about things they dont agree with.
Secondly you want to talk about hurting Bioware dev's feelings now? didn't YOU try to name drop a few posts ago and even went as far as to say you know more about how games work then the Dev's who get paid to do it ya that comeing from some random on the form isnt an insult at all. couldnt be. Needless to say this whole thing has just become a joke and as such isnt worth carrying on with your argument was lost a few posts ago and multiple people have succed in showing that anyone who can read will understand that the statement quoted above is false and clashs with your orginal post. If all you wanted to do was defend the Dev's you wouldnt have started this whole BS whos for and against Mp debate it was by far the worst way to go about defending them. And comeing from some one who has designed Video game levels I've always been ready to take a hit when I got on the forms to see what people have been saying its just part of the job.

[finc.loki]

ODESSA_Z wrote...

I had a discussion with some people before I wrote this thread...one word kept coming up...Fireworks!!!

For those of you who keep saying that I am bias...well, yeah, I am an Inclusionist and I SAY IT IN THE ORIGINAL POST!!!!

there is no escaping the arguement...call yourself whatever you want...but there are people who want to see more than just the typical linear touchy feely SP that lasts 8 hours, and there are people who are satisfied with gaming mediocrity. Sorry, it is what it is.

If you don't like the SP game then why the HELL did you play a franchise that is ALL about STORY?

It's like someone that hates MMO's play ONLY MMO games and then complain about them, moronic to say the least.

Also, Inclusionist, it's a word you made up in this context to have a good connotation for your own BIASED OPINION.
It means NOTHING.

You must be a child cause you obviously have no concept of what subjective opinion is.
Just because some of us think MP is not NECESSARY in a SINGLE PLAYER FRANCHISE, does it mean that we in general hate MP games.
I love MP games when they are designed to be MP games and not some tacked on garbage that adds nothing to the overall game and is just there to say "hey we have it now we can attract players like Odessa".

They are pimping out and defacing their own game and IP and franchise to include something cause it is the "new thing", not because it makes sense, cause it DOESN'T.

I have 1500+ hours logged in BF2142 MP game alone, I own SWTOR with is MP, infact a Massive MP made by, guess WHO....

Yes Bioware, so do I hate Bioware? Hell no I love them and I play basically ALL their games. I even liked DA2, I just didn't like the repetitive use of the same locations, other than that I loved DA2.

Stop acting like a kid and say that people that don't agree with you are "bad people that want to hurt Bioware".
Also stop saying that we or I bash developers that "work hard", everyone can work hard and just because I and others don't like MP in THIS GAME, does it mean we don't like the work they are doing.
ME franchise is one if not THE best gaming franchise I know of, and I've played games for 2 decades.

I hope they start a new trilogy set in ME universe, I am however worried it will end up like 10 hours of SP with a ton of useless MP and no story and just bang bang guns.

I also know that some changes that obviously happen in Bioware games as of late is not Biowares own decision but they are being pressured by their owner.

As I said previously I would be OK with this CO-OP if you can play it SOLO with AI controlled team mates,and that it would be the "new resource gathering" instead of scanning planets.
That way it would always be viable, even years later when you can't find human Co-OP partners.

[khevan]

Creating a second studio to handle multiplayer aspects of Bioware games (SWTOR, ME3 MP, etc) costs money. Hiring developers to staff said studio costs money. Developing multiplayer-specific coding, animations, altering existing SP abilities to work in MP, developing the servers to handle the MP aspect...all these cost money.

Everything involving multiplayer adds to the development cost of games like the Mass Effect franchise. The worry among SP enthusiasts is that the budget for ME3 was such that the added development cost for MP could (notice I said could, not would) lessen the overall resources available for SP, leading to a watered down, less involving, and "weaker" SP experience. Mass Effect has been, for the first 2 games, a single player experience, and players such as myself are heavily invested in that experience. To have a weak ending to the story would suck. That is the worry.

So far, it appears that Bioware has pulled it off, that the MP is good and the SP is strong enough to be a satisfying end to the trilogy, but the worries were justified. Many people employed too much hyperbole, perhaps, but the fears weren't groundless.

For myself, I didn't want MP for ME3 for the reasons I described above, but I'm willing to give it a shot, and I hope it turns out well. I don't fit neatly into the OP's "isolationists/Inclusionists" dichotomy, and I've seen posts from quite a few BSN'ers who appear to agree with my general mindset. This seems to blow a rather large hole into the OP's arguement. You don't have to be one or the other.

I will end this post now, without resorting to any form of hyperbole that could undermine the credibility of my thoughts.

[ODESSA_Z]

finc.loki said
"I am however worried it will end up like 10 hours of SP with a ton of useless MP and no story and just bang bang guns."

Useless MP...useless to YOU but not to millions of MP gamers who love the ME franchise. Your view of MP Versus modes is that there is usually no story and just bang bang guns going off all the time? People like you prove my point so well and that is why I illustrated your quote. The quote says it all...I need say no more.

RDS Firebane said
"YOU try to name drop a few posts ago and even went as far as to say you know more about how games work then the Dev's who get paid to do it ya that comeing from some random on the form isnt an insult at all."

Wanted to address this as well...haven't named dropped anyone in particular. But I do know quite a few devs in the industry...so one would think that my opinion would carry more weight than a person who doesn't converse with devs on a regular basis. You would think that a gamer who has actually BEEN to EA would be more informed about the subjects discussed here on game forums...BUT NO!!!! it clearly doesn't matter on either of these points...so it was fruitless of me to bring up that I know devs and have been to EA...lol - maybe its just jealousy...

My comment in regards to knowing more about how games are made than some devs....I'll put it to you this way...some devs do the artwork...some do code...some do marketing, some do level design, some are producers....I have had numerous conversations with all types of devs and have asked them numerous questions...so, when I ask someone who does artwork about how a the code was written for something...they have no clue. So, because I talk to devs in all departments, i know more about "certain aspects" of how games are made than others that never work on those aspects...

If you think it is smart to dismiss my opinions as less valuable than someone who has never interacted with a dev....that says alot about you.

I always trust the opinion of someone who has first hand experience over someone who is just pulling stuff out of the sky...which is what alot of posters do on game forums.

[Carnage752]

khevan wrote...

Creating a second studio to handle multiplayer aspects of Bioware games (SWTOR, ME3 MP, etc) costs money. Hiring developers to staff said studio costs money. Developing multiplayer-specific coding, animations, altering existing SP abilities to work in MP, developing the servers to handle the MP aspect...all these cost money.

Everything involving multiplayer adds to the development cost of games like the Mass Effect franchise. The worry among SP enthusiasts is that the budget for ME3 was such that the added development cost for MP could (notice I said could, not would) lessen the overall resources available for SP, leading to a watered down, less involving, and "weaker" SP experience. Mass Effect has been, for the first 2 games, a single player experience, and players such as myself are heavily invested in that experience. To have a weak ending to the story would suck. That is the worry.

So far, it appears that Bioware has pulled it off, that the MP is good and the SP is strong enough to be a satisfying end to the trilogy, but the worries were justified. Many people employed too much hyperbole, perhaps, but the fears weren't groundless.

For myself, I didn't want MP for ME3 for the reasons I described above, but I'm willing to give it a shot, and I hope it turns out well. I don't fit neatly into the OP's "isolationists/Inclusionists" dichotomy, and I've seen posts from quite a few BSN'ers who appear to agree with my general mindset. This seems to blow a rather large hole into the OP's arguement. You don't have to be one or the other.

I will end this post now, without resorting to any form of hyperbole that could undermine the credibility of my thoughts.

They have EA for cash, so that's not too much of a problem. They have a second team to handle the multiplayer (Which is fun, fits in to the story setting, and isn't crappy like Bioshock 2's) so the main game isn't taken away from at all. But I do agree, when I first heard about it I feared for another Bioshock 2 incident. However, Bioware writes great stories, and as long as the multiplayer didn't take away from it (Which it didn't), I think we are in for a real treat March 6th.

[Xeranx]

ODESSA_Z wrote...

finc.loki said
"I am however worried it will end up like 10 hours of SP with a ton of useless MP and no story and just bang bang guns."

Useless MP...useless to YOU but not to millions of MP gamers who love the ME franchise. Your view of MP Versus modes is that there is usually no story and just bang bang guns going off all the time? People like you prove my point so well and that is why I illustrated your quote. The quote says it all...I need say no more.

And what of the million single player gamers out there?  Your position was that they, who didn't like the possible addition of multiplayer, were selfish when there is a precedent for the very notion that you're downplaying here.  Others well versed in what those games are can give you a list as I don't play too many games as it is.  So the idea that they are selfish had no business being in your opening post at all.  You misrepresented a group you wanted to villify.  And you did so months too late.  If you wanted to jump on this from the beginning, you should have been around to do so and not go on some crusade that has already been settled.  It'd be like wanting a recount of votes for the new depiction of femshep when the demo is out already.

ODESSA_Z wrote...
RDS Firebane said
"YOU try to name drop a few posts ago and even went as far as to say you know more about how games work then the Dev's who get paid to do it ya that comeing from some random on the form isnt an insult at all."

Wanted to address this as well...haven't named dropped anyone in particular. But I do know quite a few devs in the industry...so one would think that my opinion would carry more weight than a person who doesn't converse with devs on a regular basis. You would think that a gamer who has actually BEEN to EA would be more informed about the subjects discussed here on game forums...BUT NO!!!! it clearly doesn't matter on either of these points...so it was fruitless of me to bring up that I know devs and have been to EA...lol - maybe its just jealousy...

My comment in regards to knowing more about how games are made than some devs....I'll put it to you this way...some devs do the artwork...some do code...some do marketing, some do level design, some are producers....I have had numerous conversations with all types of devs and have asked them numerous questions...so, when I ask someone who does artwork about how a the code was written for something...they have no clue. So, because I talk to devs in all departments, i know more about "certain aspects" of how games are made than others that never work on those aspects...

If you think it is smart to dismiss my opinions as less valuable than someone who has never interacted with a dev....that says alot about you.

I always trust the opinion of someone who has first hand experience over someone who is just pulling stuff out of the sky...which is what alot of posters do on game forums.

And if that wasn't enough, the part in bold is the very reason no one should take you or what you say seriously.  I thought it was you that knew things better than some developers and not others that you managed to speak to that knew things better than some developers.  If I talk to soldiers who have just returned from active duty do I know anything about combat because they told me or must I experience it so that I can have my own experience to weigh in on what being in combat is?  If I ask a writer about what it takes to write even a poem, do I have any idea of what it really is to be a writer?

What you've done is very disingenuous.  You took your second-hand information and misrepresented it as first-hand knowledge to bolster your position when you had no right to do that.

So no, I don't envy you and I don't think anyone else did or does.  That's your ego filling your head with grand ideas.  If I were to live vicariously through others, the last thing I'd do is think that I actually know what they were talking about or knew where they've been so as to present it to anyone else as proof of my experiences.  Smacks of plagiarism.  There are fake people who claim to be Navy Seals because it makes them look better, sound dangerous, and/or gives them some kind of prestige.  You aren't far off from doing that, at all, with game designers.

This thread is done.

[ODESSA_Z]

Posting this private message I sent to this Xeranx guy.....cause I know he will probably do it anyway.

Saw your last post...wow, you are really digging and twisting and turning...I'm glad to see that I have made you upset.

As far as the whole developer relationship issue...you are totally misreading my post. But thats what happens when people get mad...they can't read properly or focus.

So, I'll just say this...there is no second hand information...all of my relationships with game industry people is first hand.

If you really care....which i know you don't, as I told some idiot on here earlier...you can go to my Twitter profile and look at all the pictures of me at EA with my friends and see what industry professionals follow me by viewing my followers list...beyond that...if you hate me, you hate me...so what.

So this jerk wants proof...its easy, click view images on my profile... 

follow me on Twitter - why? cause game devs do @ODESSA_Z

Modifié par ODESSA_Z, 15 février 2012 - 03:55 .

[Xeranx]

Make sure you post my reply as well since you know exactly what I'm going to do and how crap-throwing furious I am. 

Had to add a proper smilie.

Modifié par Xeranx, 15 février 2012 - 06:46 .

[RDSFirebane]

ODESSA_Z wrote...

My comment in regards to knowing more about how games are made than some devs....I'll put it to you this way...some devs do the artwork...some do code...some do marketing, some do level design, some are producers....I have had numerous conversations with all types of devs and have asked them numerous questions...so, when I ask someone who does artwork about how a the code was written for something...they have no clue. So, because I talk to devs in all departments, i know more about "certain aspects" of how games are made than others that never work on those aspects...

ah well Then my apologies I'm use to working on small private game mod's ect ect. where everyone knows how to do the codeing level designs ect ect. Just thought that would be a common trend higher up but if what you say is true then thats very sad.  So my apologies on that miss understanding.

o and no I could careless about you actual going to EA when I was going around take tours with different Video game design colleges I stopped at enough small and big gameing companys to talk to any and all level designers I could to get advice and tips from other people who love doing what I do so your not the only one who's been around.

Edit: that being said I'm done feeding a dead thread that really should have been locked after the first post have fun.

Modifié par RDSFirebane, 16 février 2012 - 02:20 .