I was wondering what was wrong with the passive abilities in the campaign version. Good thing I am playing Soldier in the multiplayer, he has pretty short cooldowns.
Demo Bug - Passives broken
Débuté par
D Amiri
, févr. 13 2012 06:56
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#77
Posté 14 février 2012 - 09:44
mybudgee
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Man....I feel like someone Sh!t in my cereal...
#78
Posté 14 février 2012 - 03:59
Manveer Heir
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3 seconds in the minimum cloak recharge time. Max is whatever you see on the bar. Linearly interpolate on a line from 0 to max with how long you are in cloak to figure out how long the recharge will be. If it is less than 3 seconds, then make it 3 seconds. That should be your calculation. Hope it helps.
Modifié par Manveer Heir, 14 février 2012 - 04:00 .
#79
Posté 14 février 2012 - 05:24
Aurellia
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There still is this issue about what 25% means. I can understand that Demo Shepard is getting the base cool down modifier added to a encumbrance penalized cool down. The problem seems to be that Liara suffers from a similar penalty and she has only 2 light guns. If you max out her cool down via pure biotic and then later buy level singularity it moves from 4.5 to 4 seconds which is 12.5% and not 25%. For Shepard I see changes of about 9-10%.
In either case this seems at least like something that should be explained in the descriptions. As it is the math just doesn't make any sense.
In either case this seems at least like something that should be explained in the descriptions. As it is the math just doesn't make any sense.
Modifié par Aurellia, 14 février 2012 - 05:24 .
#80
Guest_TheDaniellasaur_*
Posté 14 février 2012 - 05:28
Guest_TheDaniellasaur_*
Guest_TheDaniellasaur_*
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If you on go twitter (if you have it) and tweet @masseffect about it, they might try to fix it. People have been tweeting them problems they have with the game or tweaks that need to be made all day.
#81
Posté 14 février 2012 - 06:08
Manveer Heir
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Aurellia please give me an exact example of what you are seeing and I will do my best to explain the math
#82
Posté 14 février 2012 - 06:14
StartOrange
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Is this problem present in the PC version as well? I am presuming that it is, just making sure.
Modifié par StartOrange, 14 février 2012 - 06:14 .
#83
Posté 14 février 2012 - 06:15
Heather Cline
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Manveer I played the demo and in the first part on earth Shepard had super fast cool downs as an adept. But in the second half where you rescue the Krogan female the cool downs were extremely slow for Shepard while the cool downs for Liara were on par of where they should have been given her level. This is a severe disparity in game play for an adept.
#84
Posté 14 février 2012 - 06:16
Manveer Heir
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Heather: this is all do the weight capacity from weapons. Since the demo isn't letting you customize your weapon loadout you don't have any recourse in the demo unfortunately but this issue does not exist in the full game.
#85
Posté 14 février 2012 - 06:17
Arppis
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Heather Cline wrote...
Manveer I played the demo and in the first part on earth Shepard had super fast cool downs as an adept. But in the second half where you rescue the Krogan female the cool downs were extremely slow for Shepard while the cool downs for Liara were on par of where they should have been given her level. This is a severe disparity in game play for an adept.
You are carrying 4 guns, that's why. They affect cooldowns.
#86
Posté 14 février 2012 - 06:47
Aurellia
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Manveer Heir wrote...
Aurellia please give me an exact example of what you are seeing and I will do my best to explain the math
I have tested this with several classes.
Example 1
- Go to Surr'kesh. Level up Liara pure buotic to level 4 making sure you buy down cooldown reduction. You will have 1 point remaining.
- At this point singularity will be 4.5 seconds cooldown.
- press the button and kill the 2 guys on the ship
- Now you have 2 points. Spend them on singularity
- It goes down to 4 seconds. This is a 12.5% (or 12.2% if you do the fraction the other way) reduction.
- Make a Vanguard and on Surr'kesh. Buy level 2 of charge
- I don't have the exact numbers but I observed a 9% reduction in cooldown.
- Increasing carry capacity increased the %cooldown a bit but nowhere near 25%
- Make an Adept on Surr'kesh and buy level 2 of Warp
- I observed a 9% reduction which went up slightly by buying up my carry capacity.
At minimum this is a usability bug because the numbers don't add up in the UI and no explanation is given for why this is the case. Thank you for taking the time to talk with me about this.
Modifié par Aurellia, 14 février 2012 - 07:20 .
#87
Posté 14 février 2012 - 07:01
Elecbender
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As long as we're asking questions about math here...
How is Nova's damage calculated? I know the amount of barrier determines the damage but is there some kind of formula used? This is even more confusing for the fourth evolution that expends 50% barrier but does 40% less damage.
Also in ME2 Heavy Charge added 100% of your base shields to your total shields. Is this still the case in ME3?
If you could answer these questions it would be most appreciated.
How is Nova's damage calculated? I know the amount of barrier determines the damage but is there some kind of formula used? This is even more confusing for the fourth evolution that expends 50% barrier but does 40% less damage.
Also in ME2 Heavy Charge added 100% of your base shields to your total shields. Is this still the case in ME3?
If you could answer these questions it would be most appreciated.
#88
Posté 14 février 2012 - 07:04
Kronner
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Also, the weapon customization screen is really bad since there are NO numbers, just bars. Numbers are good, why didn't you add them? It's nice to see I get 25% bonus to this or that, but if I do not know the base value, a percentage based bonus tells me nothing.
#89
Posté 14 février 2012 - 07:57
Manveer Heir
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Elecbender wrote...
As long as we're asking questions about math here...
How is Nova's damage calculated? I know the amount of barrier determines the damage but is there some kind of formula used? This is even more confusing for the fourth evolution that expends 50% barrier but does 40% less damage.
Also in ME2 Heavy Charge added 100% of your base shields to your total shields. Is this still the case in ME3?
If you could answer these questions it would be most appreciated.
Nova's damage is your current barrier (biotic version of shields) divided by max barrier (to get a percentage). That percentage multiplied by the max damage (what you see on the bar in the stat menu). Using nova will use up ALL your barrier. The upgrade you are talking about makes it so instead of eating up all of your barrier, it will only use half, but the end result is you do less damage. Basically it's an upgrade for people who don't want to feel super exposed after using Nova.
Charge restores 50% of your shields, 100% would have been overpowered.
Nova uses all your shield, so one of my favorite combos is to Nova a guy to kill him, charge to the next guy, getting 50% of my shield back, hitting him, then Nova again to finish him off. Dangerous but powerful if you can learn to use it well.
Working on a longer answer about the math so I can explain how this all works to avoid more questions about the same thing.
@manveerheir
Modifié par Manveer Heir, 14 février 2012 - 07:58 .
#90
Posté 14 février 2012 - 08:31
AlphaJarmel
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Manveer Heir wrote...
3 seconds in the minimum cloak recharge time. Max is whatever you see on the bar. Linearly interpolate on a line from 0 to max with how long you are in cloak to figure out how long the recharge will be. If it is less than 3 seconds, then make it 3 seconds. That should be your calculation. Hope it helps.
Thanks for giving me an answer. Sorry it took so long to respond as I was playing the demo.
One last question about Cloak. Do you know the percentage that the minimum charge is based on? Like if my recharge time is 6 seconds, would it be 2 seconds(obviously it goes up to 3 but I'm more interested in seeing what I can carry and still maintain a low minimum recharge rate)?
Modifié par AlphaJarmel, 14 février 2012 - 08:32 .
#91
Posté 14 février 2012 - 08:38
Manveer Heir
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Minimum charge cooldown is hard coded and you can't change it
@manveerheir
@manveerheir
Modifié par Manveer Heir, 14 février 2012 - 08:38 .
#92
Posté 14 février 2012 - 08:42
AlphaJarmel
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I apologize, I worded it wrongly. What I'm trying to say is if your max recharge time is say 14 seconds, do you know what proportion the recharge time is compared to the duration?
For example if a person has Cloak on for three seconds and their duration is 7 seconds, how would they figure out their recharge time?
For example if a person has Cloak on for three seconds and their duration is 7 seconds, how would they figure out their recharge time?
#93
Posté 14 février 2012 - 09:00
Manveer Heir
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Linear proportion. So in your example 3/7 = 43%. Take the recharge speed listed, multiply by 43% and that's your value. If it is less than 3 seconds, then make it 3 seconds.
#94
Posté 14 février 2012 - 09:06
Manveer Heir
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Power Stat Upgrades - Math Formula Explanation
There are three different types of formulas we use to calculate power bonuses. I will explain how each works mathematically. I can promise you we spent a lot of time making sure the numbers were correct and this is all working as intended, even if it doesn’t make perfect sense at first glance. I should also note that this is how things were done on ME2, but the difference is we didn’t expose the final numbers to the player in ME2. We are doing that in ME3 to allow the hardcore RPG player to maximize their potential and know what is happening.
Formula 1 – Normal Power Upgrades
The vast majority of powers data upgrades fall under this, such as damage, force, and impact radius. Most notably, power recharge speed (aka cooldown) does NOT fall under this formula.
New Value = Base Value at Rank 1 * (1.0 + Sum of all rank bonuses + Dynamic Bonuses)
Base Value at Rank 1 is simple. Whatever damage (or whatever is being upgraded) is at rank 1 of that power is the base value. This is what all the percentages are off of.
Sum of all the rank bonuses are the bonuses of every other rank that you have bought added all up. So if Rank 3 upgrades damage 10% and you bought Rank 4 evolve that upgrades damage 15% and at Rank 6 you bought the evolve that upgrades damage 25% then the sum of the rank bonuses are 50% (add all three numbers). You only add in rank bonuses for the stat you are upgrading that you have bought. Note, this value is expressed as a floating point number so 50% = 0.5. 100% = 1.0.
Dynamic Bonuses are from things like your passives and weight capacity. So you could have 100% bonus total by having a 70% bonus from weight capacity, 10% from wearing certain armor, and 20% from your passive power. Note, this value is expressed as a floating point number so 50% = 0.5. 100% = 1.0.
So why do we calculate it like this instead of just taking the current value and multiplying it by the upgrade amount (like 25% for example)? Balance is a big reason. If the upgrade modifies the current value, the upgrade is more useful for players who have a higher value from things like passives and all that. This means powers can quickly become overpowered or an upgrade is useless for some players and ridiculously powerful for others. This becomes hard to balance and manage. So all upgrades go off of the BASE value (and the base value is calculated before any passives, armor, weight capacity, etc stuff is accounted for).
Formula 2 – Recharge Speed Upgrades
Recharge speed (aka cooldown) use a formula called divide by bonus sum. The formula is as follows:
New Value = Base Value at Rank 1 * (1.0 / (1.0 + Sum of all rank bonuses + Dynamic Bonuses))
The definitions of the values are the same as above. So if recharge speed is 10 seconds at Rank 1, the sum of your rank bonuses is 50% and the dynamic bonuses total at 25%, using the formula above what you find is the value is 5.7. Only recharge speed is calculated using this formula. Also, it should be noted that Henchmen power recharge speeds are always double what Shepard’s recharge speed is (there may be one or two execptions, but those are close to double). This is to stop the henchmen from being overpowered.
Formula 3 – Hard Value Bonuses
This formula is used for stats that are expressed as percents. So, normally if you are upgrading something like Force, that is measured in Newtons. So you are upgrading 25% to the base 100 N of Force. However, what do you do when the stat you are upgrading is Weapon Damage Bonus, like many of the passives have. Weapon Damage Bonus is expressed as a percentage.
So Rank 1 Weapon Damage Bonus may be 10%. If we say at rank 2 the Weapon Damage Bonus increases by 50% what is the correct result for total weapon damage bonus now. If you used formula 1, it would be 15%. But that goes against what people expect, because you are increasing a percent by a percent. Instead, you expect the numbers to add together. So a 50% increase to 10% should be 60%.
Because of this we created a different formula for these sorts of stats. This just makes the numbers work like what players expect. The formula is simple
New Value = (Base Value at Rank 1 + Sum of Rank all rank bonuses) * (1.0 + Dynamic Bonuses)
And that’s all the math formulas. I promise you the numbers we are giving you are correct and are calculated correctly and we spent lots of time discussing the formulas, when to use which ones, and how players will understand. We understand this isn’t clear in-game how the formulas work, but the important information is given to you the player. You are told the end result of your action as well as the percentage increase. This really only breaks down when you think the game is broken and decide to do the math on your own and realize you don’t have the correct formula to solve the problem.
We realized this would be a very small percentage of people that do this so instead of confusing people and trying to explain everything in game with complicated formulas, we do the math in the background, give you guys the results that matter and let you make your choices from there. The truly hardcore can read this, hopefully helpful, forum post to understand everything further.
I hope that clarifies how we are calculating our numbers in ME3 for the powers. I know you all have 1000 questions on specifics of each power, but myself and the other designers cannot answer every single question, so I’m going to try to avoid going into huge details for future inquiries regarding powers. There’s just too many of you, too few of us, and we still have work to do on top of reading forums. I hope you understand.
Thank you so much for your passion, support, dedication and for your kind words regarding the demo. We all hope you enjoy the full game even more in March.
There are three different types of formulas we use to calculate power bonuses. I will explain how each works mathematically. I can promise you we spent a lot of time making sure the numbers were correct and this is all working as intended, even if it doesn’t make perfect sense at first glance. I should also note that this is how things were done on ME2, but the difference is we didn’t expose the final numbers to the player in ME2. We are doing that in ME3 to allow the hardcore RPG player to maximize their potential and know what is happening.
Formula 1 – Normal Power Upgrades
The vast majority of powers data upgrades fall under this, such as damage, force, and impact radius. Most notably, power recharge speed (aka cooldown) does NOT fall under this formula.
New Value = Base Value at Rank 1 * (1.0 + Sum of all rank bonuses + Dynamic Bonuses)
Base Value at Rank 1 is simple. Whatever damage (or whatever is being upgraded) is at rank 1 of that power is the base value. This is what all the percentages are off of.
Sum of all the rank bonuses are the bonuses of every other rank that you have bought added all up. So if Rank 3 upgrades damage 10% and you bought Rank 4 evolve that upgrades damage 15% and at Rank 6 you bought the evolve that upgrades damage 25% then the sum of the rank bonuses are 50% (add all three numbers). You only add in rank bonuses for the stat you are upgrading that you have bought. Note, this value is expressed as a floating point number so 50% = 0.5. 100% = 1.0.
Dynamic Bonuses are from things like your passives and weight capacity. So you could have 100% bonus total by having a 70% bonus from weight capacity, 10% from wearing certain armor, and 20% from your passive power. Note, this value is expressed as a floating point number so 50% = 0.5. 100% = 1.0.
So why do we calculate it like this instead of just taking the current value and multiplying it by the upgrade amount (like 25% for example)? Balance is a big reason. If the upgrade modifies the current value, the upgrade is more useful for players who have a higher value from things like passives and all that. This means powers can quickly become overpowered or an upgrade is useless for some players and ridiculously powerful for others. This becomes hard to balance and manage. So all upgrades go off of the BASE value (and the base value is calculated before any passives, armor, weight capacity, etc stuff is accounted for).
Formula 2 – Recharge Speed Upgrades
Recharge speed (aka cooldown) use a formula called divide by bonus sum. The formula is as follows:
New Value = Base Value at Rank 1 * (1.0 / (1.0 + Sum of all rank bonuses + Dynamic Bonuses))
The definitions of the values are the same as above. So if recharge speed is 10 seconds at Rank 1, the sum of your rank bonuses is 50% and the dynamic bonuses total at 25%, using the formula above what you find is the value is 5.7. Only recharge speed is calculated using this formula. Also, it should be noted that Henchmen power recharge speeds are always double what Shepard’s recharge speed is (there may be one or two execptions, but those are close to double). This is to stop the henchmen from being overpowered.
Formula 3 – Hard Value Bonuses
This formula is used for stats that are expressed as percents. So, normally if you are upgrading something like Force, that is measured in Newtons. So you are upgrading 25% to the base 100 N of Force. However, what do you do when the stat you are upgrading is Weapon Damage Bonus, like many of the passives have. Weapon Damage Bonus is expressed as a percentage.
So Rank 1 Weapon Damage Bonus may be 10%. If we say at rank 2 the Weapon Damage Bonus increases by 50% what is the correct result for total weapon damage bonus now. If you used formula 1, it would be 15%. But that goes against what people expect, because you are increasing a percent by a percent. Instead, you expect the numbers to add together. So a 50% increase to 10% should be 60%.
Because of this we created a different formula for these sorts of stats. This just makes the numbers work like what players expect. The formula is simple
New Value = (Base Value at Rank 1 + Sum of Rank all rank bonuses) * (1.0 + Dynamic Bonuses)
And that’s all the math formulas. I promise you the numbers we are giving you are correct and are calculated correctly and we spent lots of time discussing the formulas, when to use which ones, and how players will understand. We understand this isn’t clear in-game how the formulas work, but the important information is given to you the player. You are told the end result of your action as well as the percentage increase. This really only breaks down when you think the game is broken and decide to do the math on your own and realize you don’t have the correct formula to solve the problem.
We realized this would be a very small percentage of people that do this so instead of confusing people and trying to explain everything in game with complicated formulas, we do the math in the background, give you guys the results that matter and let you make your choices from there. The truly hardcore can read this, hopefully helpful, forum post to understand everything further.
I hope that clarifies how we are calculating our numbers in ME3 for the powers. I know you all have 1000 questions on specifics of each power, but myself and the other designers cannot answer every single question, so I’m going to try to avoid going into huge details for future inquiries regarding powers. There’s just too many of you, too few of us, and we still have work to do on top of reading forums. I hope you understand.
Thank you so much for your passion, support, dedication and for your kind words regarding the demo. We all hope you enjoy the full game even more in March.
#95
Posté 14 février 2012 - 09:07
Elecbender
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Manveer Heir wrote...
Nova's damage is your current barrier (biotic version of shields) divided by max barrier (to get a percentage). That percentage multiplied by the max damage (what you see on the bar in the stat menu). Using nova will use up ALL your barrier. The upgrade you are talking about makes it so instead of eating up all of your barrier, it will only use half, but the end result is you do less damage. Basically it's an upgrade for people who don't want to feel super exposed after using Nova.
Charge restores 50% of your shields, 100% would have been overpowered.
Nova uses all your shield, so one of my favorite combos is to Nova a guy to kill him, charge to the next guy, getting 50% of my shield back, hitting him, then Nova again to finish him off. Dangerous but powerful if you can learn to use it well.
Working on a longer answer about the math so I can explain how this all works to avoid more questions about the same thing.
@manveerheir
Interesting.
Thank you for your time.
#96
Guest_Guest12345_*
Posté 14 février 2012 - 09:10
Guest_Guest12345_*
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Thanks for the info Manveer!
#97
Posté 14 février 2012 - 09:12
stonbw1
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I think I need to go back to college and take more math classes. Geez.
#98
Posté 14 février 2012 - 09:15
Aurellia
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Manveer,
Thank you very much for explaining this. This is the old bioware that I have known and loved over the years. Kudos on this great customer support/interaction:)
So it looks like in my examples there was ~50 contribution from dynamic bonuses which effectively dilute the impact the 25% change. May I still suggest that it might be nice to add a boilerplate message to the cool down message to something like "adds 25% to any other cool down bonuses present"
Thank you very much for explaining this. This is the old bioware that I have known and loved over the years. Kudos on this great customer support/interaction:)
So it looks like in my examples there was ~50 contribution from dynamic bonuses which effectively dilute the impact the 25% change. May I still suggest that it might be nice to add a boilerplate message to the cool down message to something like "adds 25% to any other cool down bonuses present"
Modifié par Aurellia, 14 février 2012 - 09:16 .
#99
Posté 15 février 2012 - 12:38
AlphaJarmel
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Amazing posts. Thank you for your time as I know you must be busy.
#100
Posté 15 février 2012 - 12:42
HolyAvenger
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Great post Manveer. Someone should sticky this!
