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The Band of Three and Gaider's New Interview: A Contradiction


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#1
Blacklash93

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In a new interview, David Gaider states that Kirkwall was not built for a specific magical purpose. Here's what he said:

TUK: Were the Magisters trying to accomplish anything in particular with what they were doing in Kirkwall, or was it just a convenient location?

DG: It was a convenient location. It wasn't like they created Kirkwall in order to do something sinister, it's that Kirkwall having A) a ready available of sacrifices and B) a very thin Veil, I mean why do they put the Circles of Magi wherever there's a thin Veil? It's really dangerous, but it's sort of a chicken-egg thing. Even if they did build a Circle where there wasn't a thin Veil eventually over time the Veil would thin anyhow. And it happens to be that these are the more magical places, the thinner the Veil is the more magic you have available. It's arguable, you could say 'Well if we want to control mages, maybe we should them in places where there isn't a lot of magic!

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Just a convinient location? Let's see what the codex has to say about that.

It is as we thought. The quarries of Kirkwall were found after the city was sacked by the Imperium and after they started constructing the city. The Imperium found the mineral wealth, not the indigenous people. The histories give conflicting accounts on who lived here before the Imperium. Some say the Alamarri. Some say the Daefads. We do know it was a barbarian people who had little need of the metals in the hills.
So why did the Imperium come here in such force? It is hard to disprove Brother Mikhel's theory that the natural harbor would be important for their armies, but magisters ruled, not common men. What barrier would a simple sea pose to them? The wars with the Alamarri wouldn't start until centuries later.


So the Tevinters sought this location out, but not for the geographical convinience?

A maze of caves, sewers, and hidden passages! We found three Tevinter chambers already looted, but today (tonight?) we found one closed. It was a small cell containing a few trinkets and a common tome, but it symbolizes hope. The magisters had hundreds of mages deep below Kirkwall. They lived and researched here, far from the scrutiny of common men.
Many ancient cities specialized in arcane research, but why did Kirkwall hide its efforts here? Why go to such great pains to keep it out of sight? Were they a cabal of renegade magisters? Or was this a special project of the archon?


Why would the Tevinters hide what they were doing? In Tevinter they could do whatever crazy experiments they wanted. What made this so special?

A master mason made a comment that set my mind afire. She said that of all the cities she's worked in, Kirkwall was the most difficult, and that the city is almost literally a maze. Recollecting my first years in Kirkwall, I have to agree. Getting lost was commonplace. The city was a sprawling mess.
The mason showed me a plan of the city, and my heart skipped a beat. There were patterns in the intersections, back alleys, and boulevards. Some magisters believed in the power of symbols or shapes. In the oldest parts of the city, one can make out the outlines of glyphs in the very streets! What manner of magic is this?


What would the point of this be? Huge glyphs that form the very city itself?

The blood of countless slaves was spilled beneath the city in sacrifice. Whole buildings were built upon lakes of blood. The sewers have grooves where blood would flow, all leading down. The scale is hard to fathom.
A blood mage can channel great power from a simple cut. At least a thousand unfortunates died here every year for centuries. For what ungodly purpose would one need so much power?


Why would someone need so much power? Why build a city to form magical glyphs over lakes of blood? Is it some massive ritual?






It is well known that the Veil is thin in Kirkwall, small wonder given the suffering in the city. But we've discovered the magisters were deliberately thinning it even further. Beneath the city, demons can contact even normal men. Did they seek the Black City to compound the madness of their previous efforts? Or was it something else?


Now why would the magisters intentionally be thinning the veil? To enter the Golden City again? Or is that too obvious?





If that is real, then what of the Forgotten Ones? This journey has taken us to many strange places, and made us re-evaluate many former truths. Where will it end?






We went to the center of it all. F. is dead and I am alone and injured. I must go back and put an end to it. The maddening thing is there is still no answer. But the Forgotten One, or demon or whatever it is, must be destroyed. I fear one may already be unbound.


This is where things might start tying together. Why would a Forgotten One, an evil elven god, be mentioned here? Was it the center of everything that was going on? Were the Tevinters experimenting on a bound Forgotten One under Kirkwall and everything about the city was just an elaborate conspiracy to do something with it?

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I'm sorry, Mr. Gaider, but I just can't believe you. There were too many questionable things going on in Kirkwall and the BoT questions the notion that the Tevinters chose this place for the convinient location too many times.

Kirkwall was meant to be something greater. It was made for a very specific purpose by the Tevinters. And you know what? It still could live up to that. This plot need to be resolved. It is far too interesting to leave behind and pretend it meant little. That would not only be a huge disservice to the series' potential, but also to the fans who have put so much interest and thought into this story.

Kirkwall was a very boring city with very a fascinating past. Why waste the opportunity to give Kirkwall the dark character it was meant to have? Can we get a DLC, a resolution in the codex in future DA installments, or at least something that doesn't leave us hanging like this?

What was Kirkwall? The means to perform a giant ritual or spell? An experimental ground for... something? To leave this unaddressed and to wrongly regard it as something unimportant would be a huge black mark on this series for me that I wouldn't easily forget. 

Modifié par Blacklash93, 14 février 2012 - 09:00 .


#2
Dutchess

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I agree it was very odd Gaider said it actually meant nothing and that those codex entries were only added to give some kind of explanation for all the blood mages in Kirkwall. Pretty sloppy to let this now go without any further explanation.

#3
Aldandil

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Well, I for one find it plausible that people who dig around in tunnels and looking in ancient tomes sometimes see connections that aren't really there. I'm not going to argue about what you feel makes up good plot points because that's highly subjective. However, it seems a bit silly to say that DG isn't being honest based on what is written in the Codex, when the Codex is not true facts, but rather written in the voice of a fictional character with a particular mind frame and a particular agenda. It's highly likely that the guy who wrote the Band of Three codex entry wasn't the most level-headed person, which would be somewhat corroborated by the language that he uses and the fact that he's a conspiracy theorist. There are tons of possible answers why magisters perform secret experiments in a city founded because of its convenient location. Many of them could include demon summoning or thinning of the veil.

#4
whykikyouwhy

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I don't know that Gaider is being dishonest or intentionally dismissive (but then, I don't know him, so I can't really make a proper judgement call on his intent). Looking at his quote:

DG: It was a convenient location. It wasn't like they created Kirkwall in order to do something sinister, it's that Kirkwall having A) a ready available of sacrifices and B) a very thin Veil, I mean why do they put the Circles of Magi wherever there's a thin Veil? It's really dangerous, but it's sort of a chicken-egg thing. Even if they did build a Circle where there wasn't a thin Veil eventually over time the Veil would thin anyhow. And it happens to be that these are the more magical places, the thinner the Veil is the more magic you have available. It's arguable, you could say 'Well if we want to control mages, maybe we should them in places where there isn't a lot of magic!

What I get from that is the Magisters came to Kirkwall already knowing or at least sensing that the Veil was thin. Maybe their research pointed to it being a location of potential power. They didn't create the city, or the location, but they intentionally mucked around in it. The key word in that bolded bit is "created" - meaning Kirkwall existed before, in some way, shape or form. The foundation and the roots were there, and upon that, much was build and layered with the pain of sacrifice and the ill workings of magicks.

Codex entries are always a bit tricky to reconcile because they are supposed to be written from a specific point of view - so their perspective/intent/tone/etc is from the NPC author, and not necessarily a static be-all-end-all factual document. Your PC finds a scrap of parchment and viola! codex entry. Basically, you can't always trust the source.

The Band of Three codecies are intriguing indeed and lead one to the conclusion that Kirkwall is/was a hellmouth of sorts and that all sorts of nefariousness has been committed there. Which I don't think Gaider has disputed or denied. He's just saying that the Magisters didn't bring their pack mules over and say "hey, this clean piece of land looks good enough to spoil and taint. Let's start that process now." Rather, they arrived at a piece of land rippling with hazily controlled energies and said "Hey! Thin Veil! It'll be easier to do what we want here."

Now, a proper city may not have been there way back when, but with enough mages running around, with enough sacrifices needing to be fattened up or what have you, Kirkwall as we know it now probably came to be. Because people need to eat, and they need supplies - so commerce will eventually take over. When there's commerce, there needs to be order, and so you have the guard, the Viscount, etc and so forth. And thus, Kirkwall exists on two planes, of a sort - the surface view (thriving city) and the underground (mages and the mucking). I'm not saying that this is what truly happened, but it might have been the way of things.

As to what the magisters wanted to do there...well, that's where speculation abounds. Personally, I think it had to do with the Black City. But that's just me.

Modifié par whykikyouwhy, 14 février 2012 - 11:28 .


#5
Shadow of Light Dragon

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This has already been discussed, but I'll highlight one point again...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

What I get from that is the Magisters came to Kirkwall already knowing or at least sensing that the Veil was thin. Maybe their research pointed to it being a location of potential power. They didn't create the city, or the location, but they intentionally mucked around in it. The key word in that bolded bit is "created" - meaning Kirkwall existed before, in some way, shape or form. The foundation and the roots were there, and upon that, much was build and layered with the pain of sacrifice and the ill workings of magicks.[etc]


From the Enigma of Kirkwall:

The mason showed me a plan of the city, and my heart skipped a beat. There were patterns in the intersections, back alleys, and boulevards. Some magisters believed in the power of symbols or shapes. In the oldest parts of the city, one can make out the outlines of glyphs in the very streets! What manner of magic is this?

If accurate, this strongly implied that the magisters did build Kirkwall to specific shapes for a specific purpose. Did the area already have a weak veil when it was built, or was it a conscious effort thanks to the sacrifice of thousands of slaves?

It's possible the magisters of old built a lightning rod, then attempted to summon a storm to it.

But speculation aside, I do hope the Band of Three will not be shrugged aside as a bit of random lore that only existed to explain the abundance of maleficarum in DA2.

#6
whykikyouwhy

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But when in the grand time scheme were those plans from? And when did the Band contact the mason? Was there a modern Kirkwall built on top of a different, older not-yet-declared-Kirkwall? (And maybe the glyph layout was an attempt to suppress the ill already wrought by the initial fiddling with the Veil.)

It could be a trick of semantics hinging on the time frame of events. I guess I just don't expect Gaider to tip his hand with anything having to do with secret plots or machinations of magisters. And as such, he may be purposely vague.

Modifié par whykikyouwhy, 14 février 2012 - 11:52 .


#7
Shadow of Light Dragon

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For all we know the Band of Three were in Kirkwall at exactly the same time as DA2 was taking place. Their notes pop up in every act, and one of the codices speaks of a trove being uncovered and references the Fell Grimoire, which Tarohne got her hands on and hid.

But who knows? It could be anything. It could be nothing. I simply think it would be sad if it wasn't something.

#8
whykikyouwhy

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Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
I simply think it would be sad if it wasn't something.


Agreed. I would hate to think that my cheese theories were all for naught. Well, other than for my own amusement. ^_^

#9
Corker

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FWIW, I suspect the reference to a Forgotten One is a mixup with the Forbidden Ones. Xebenkeck, one of the Forbidden Ones, *can* be summoned underneath Kirkwall.  And the reference to "I fear one may already  be unbound" is likely a reference to Gaxkang the Unbound, another Forbidden One.

Modifié par Corker, 14 février 2012 - 12:36 .


#10
EmperorSahlertz

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I think Gaider was talking about that Kirkwalls original purpose wasn't magical, but just to be a slave trade hub.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 14 février 2012 - 01:35 .


#11
Fast Jimmy

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This is just proof that there is no greater mystery to the Dragon Age franchise or world, they have no secret, arching storyline they are wanting to tell, they don't have any idea what the big questions are, let alone the answers to those big questions.

Another thread said this a few weeks ago, but this is Lost all over again. They are just pulling plot ideas out of a hat and throwing them in game without really thinking how far they have to develop any of them.

EDIT: Also, as an addendum, the DA team has been pretty bad about keeping secrets in the past. They love to give away secrets, not play things close to the vest. For Gaider to come off and say very offhand that this was a throw away plot idea without acting like he had an ace up his sleeve about this story, then I'd take that at face value. If it was truly something they had thought about and were going to develop, Gaider would have been hard pressed not to twirl a mustache and give out a "Mwuahahaaa!"

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 14 février 2012 - 01:45 .


#12
Patchwork

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I really wanted the Enigma of Kirkwall to be something (like a future DLC where Hawke does something positve free of a potential downside) but it seems the EoK is nothing but codex filler.

Modifié par Ser Bard, 14 février 2012 - 03:12 .


#13
Blacklash93

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Corker wrote...

FWIW, I suspect the reference to a Forgotten One is a mixup with the Forbidden Ones. Xebenkeck, one of the Forbidden Ones, *can* be summoned underneath Kirkwall.  And the reference to "I fear one may already  be unbound" is likely a reference to Gaxkang the Unbound, another Forbidden One.

Well it says "Forgotten One(s)" so that's what we have to take it as. I've checked the game.

And I realize this has been discussed many times before, but it bears repeating to the writers of how much of a waste it would be to let this plot go.

#14
EmperorSahlertz

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I always took that as the Forgotten Ones and the Forbidden Ones were one and the same.

#15
TEWR

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It really just seems like they said "Crap... we've got way too many evil mages" and created a bunch of codex entries to "explain" why there's such an abundance.

It just makes DAII weaker then it already was.

#16
Corker

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@Blacklash93, I don't suspect the mixup is yours.  I believe you that it says 'Forgotten Ones' in the game.  I think it's an error.

I will be more than happy to receive new, additional canonical content to prove me wrong, though.  :innocent:  The Band of Three was one of my favorite parts of DA2; I'd love to see their adventures as a sort of Thedan X-Files "the truth is out there" investigation. 

#17
Darth Death

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I'm not up-to-date with the story of DA, but I'll attempt to understand. So the purpose of kirkwall was undermined in the interview with gaider despite what was said in the codex?

#18
TEWR

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Pretty much. He all but flat out said that the Enigma of Kirkwall was just some throwaway idea used to help justify the evil mages you fight.

#19
whykikyouwhy

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@TEWR - That's a pretty broad interpretation of what was quoted in the OP. Is there is another quote from that interview that would back up your "all but said" statement? Just curious, because that's not at all how I read things.

#20
Lenimph

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I think he's just being dismissive. I do recall him saying something along the lines of "People shouldn't assume that a pirate woman is Isabela blah blah blah," when that trailer first came out long before DA2's release.  So... 

Modifié par Lenimph, 14 février 2012 - 06:05 .


#21
TEWR

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DG: There was a lot of blood sacrifices in Thedas when the Tevinter ruled. Tevinter Imperium wanted a place where slaves could be gathered and trained and sold, that wasn't inside the Imperium itself, and at that time Kirkwall sort of laid on the fringes, and it a very dirty business so they sent everybody out there. So it was a very brutal place, lots of death, and as is typical for Thedas anywhere you have lots of death and emotional trauma the Veil becomes very thin. So that's a story reason, gameplay reason is that the gameplay guys wanted lots of mages to fight. There was a point late in the project we kind of realized 'Hey, we have sort of a shortage of good mages...'


It seems that they made this story idea at the last minute with no real intent to follow through on what it might mean for Kirkwall, and instead just wanted it as an excuse to justify some bad game design.

So it's actually closer to him flat out saying it was a last minute idea then I thought.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 février 2012 - 06:09 .


#22
EmperorSahlertz

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

It really just seems like they said "Crap... we've got way too many evil mages" and created a bunch of codex entries to "explain" why there's such an abundance.

It just makes DAII weaker then it already was.

How is it weak storytelling to explain the reasons for current events? Just because a story doesn't pan out the way you like it, doesn't make it weak storytelling.

#23
TEWR

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How is it weak storytelling to explain the reasons for current events? Just because a story doesn't pan out the way you like it, doesn't make it weak storytelling.


It's weak storytelling because they focused, yet again, on the gameplay of the game instead of the story.

Then, lo and behold when they realize the error of their ways they draw up an explanation to help justify their focus on gameplay over story, and then have absolutely no intention of giving the explanation a decent backstory itself.

They said "Make the magisters the root of the thin Veil, but we're just going to say they did it for kicks. They had no real reason for doing it".

That is weak storytelling, especially when it contradicts the very codex they gave to us in game by people who devoted their entire lives to finding out why Kirkwall is a hellmouth.

All of the evidence the Band of Three found points to the Magisters having a reason for doing it. It's not just "LOL slaves". They had a reason. The glyph that Kirkwall looks like, the lakes of blood, the hidden troves of magic, the thin Veil under the city, etc.

That is weak storytelling.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 février 2012 - 06:16 .


#24
whykikyouwhy

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@TEWR - That still doesn't resonate as close to flat-out for me. You may also be assuming that *if* the Enigma of Kirkwall was something injected into the narrative for mage-battle justification, that there is also no intention of revisiting it or expanding upon that lore. Who's to say what will come out in the future - plenty of loose ends may be tied.

#25
TEWR

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whykikyouwhy wrote...

@TEWR - That still doesn't resonate as close to flat-out for me. You may also be assuming that *if* the Enigma of Kirkwall was something injected into the narrative for mage-battle justification, that there is also no intention of revisiting it or expanding upon that lore. Who's to say what will come out in the future - plenty of loose ends may be tied.


That seems like being far too optimistic to me. Not trying to be offensive, but Gaider said in that same interview that they didn't have a reason for doing what they did.

And if he said it there, then they're most likely not going to give the Magisters a reason for what they did.

Additionally, there isn't really an *if* here. Gaider's wording heavily implies that the Enigma of Kirkwall was a justification, almost to the point of him flat out saying such. He wouldn't have mentioned it in regards to a question on the Enigma of Kirkwall and the thin Veil if it wasn't related to the focus of gameplay and the absurd amount of evil mages.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 février 2012 - 06:25 .