108 réponses à ce sujet

[whykikyouwhy]

It's not really optimism. And I'm all about looking at the worst case scenario for things, but it just strikes me as premature to pass judgement on what has yet to pan out with only two games and a handful of DLC out for public consumption. I'm not hinging any true hopes on this, that or the other (and I've speculated on plenty in the "other" category), but I'm willing to give the crew a fair chance to tell me the rest of the story. So to dismiss these codex entries as just fluff that may never have any added substance is, imo, unfair at this juncture.

[WhiteKnyght]

Codex entries aren't always accurate. Gaider said that himself. They are literal writings in the DA world and are written to the author's best knowledge, which leaves room for human error.

Also one other reason he gave to explain why there seems to be so many blood mages is proximity. Hawke's interesting line of work puts him in places where he's more likely to cross blood magic. But that doesn't mean that they outnumber the normal mages.

[TEWR]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

It's not really optimism. And I'm all about looking at the worst case scenario for things, but it just strikes me as premature to pass judgement on what has yet to pan out with only two games and a handful of DLC out for public consumption. I'm not hinging any true hopes on this, that or the other (and I've speculated on plenty in the "other" category), but I'm willing to give the crew a fair chance to tell me the rest of the story. So to dismiss these codex entries as just fluff that may never have any added substance is, imo, unfair at this juncture.

Fair enough. However, I can't really see it as anything other than fluff.

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Codex entries aren't always accurate. Gaider said that himself. They are literal writings in the DA world and are written to the author's best knowledge, which leaves room for human error.

That argument doesn't hold up to this considering everything the Band of Three discovered. Kirkwall was purposely designed in the form of a magical glyph, rivers of blood run underneath the city, treasure troves of vast and forgotten arcane arts lay beneath the city in the hidden alcoves, and so many other things.

This goes way beyond claiming "LOL author is wrong. We're right."

They wouldn't have made the Band of Three discover so much if they didn't want them to be right. And now Gaider is dismissing it, saying that there was no purpose for their actions other than to be sadistic pricks to their slaves. Which means that there isn't a point anymore to the Band of Three codexes and that they were just throwaway entries.

They don't need a glyph to be sadistic pricks hellbent on power. They don't need rivers of blood to do that. They did that just fine in their homeland.

Also one other reason he gave to explain why there seems to be so many blood mages is proximity. Hawke's interesting line of work puts him in places where he's more likely to cross blood magic. But that doesn't mean that they outnumber the normal mages.

I don't buy this either. If they want us to take an interest in the mage-Templar conflict, they need to portray both sides equally, fairly, and smartly.

But now Gaider comes out and says "Hawke just has really bad luck and can't see any good mages"?

This is just another excuse imo.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 février 2012 - 06:38 .

[Corker]

I have a meta-opinion on this one, too. I sort of suspect DG either didn't write those codices, or had largely forgotten the details.

I find them very interesting, but they don't impact the game except to explain the general wtfery in Kirkwall. If someone (say a lead writer) was more focused on the present-day storyline and making sure all those things tied together, it could be very easy to lump the Enigma codices under "Plot Holes, Have Been Spackled" and otherwise forget about it. The fact that they mention mystic geometries and such may have slipped his mind when he answered the question.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I don't buy this either. If they want us to take an interest in the mage-Templar conflict, they need to portray both sides equally, fairly, and smartly.
But now Gaider comes out and says "Hawke just has really bad luck and can't see any good mages"?
This is just another excuse imo.

Doesn't that go both way? The Templars weren't exactly portrayed fairly in DA2 either. DA2 pretty much showcased the worst both sides have to offer.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 14 février 2012 - 06:57 .

[TEWR]

Doesn't that go both way? The Templars weren't exactly portrayed fairly in DA2 either. DA2 pretty much showcased the worst both sides have to offer.

....

You do realize I said they need to portray both sides equally, fairly and smartly, right? As in both sides for the Mage-Templar conflict. I didn't just say "Show the mages well!"

They need to show the worst as well as the best in the system to make a good case for each.

All they did was show the worst of both sides, which really just makes people fed up with the whole entire idea because... really... what's the point?

What I said at the end was a paraphrase of Gaider's words, and even then we can find more good Templars then good mages. Or at least hear of more of them.

Thrask, Emeric, Keran, Ser Maarevar Carver, arguably Cullen and Carver themselves, and some others.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 février 2012 - 07:07 .

[esper]

@Filement, yeah they didn't exactly sound sound. An conspirators who are paranoid sees patterne where there are none.
Anyway I didn't place anything in it beyond Kirkwall have a really thin veil, with Corypheus discovered close by I thought that might actually be what they were close to discover, but that was about it.
Just as I don't place anything, but a gimmick in Sandal's words as they might just be crazy words from a guy who (I am sorry to say it) are crazy. Even if they are profectic they were still vague enough to fit any future event into it if you speculate enough.
Conspirations theory are fun, but the moment you think that they are the absolute truth in a world where myth doesn't equal truth, you are taking it too far.

[TEWR]

The Band of Three could just as well be crazy conspiracy theorists. That's not really a contradiction of "lore."

Crazy conspiracy theorists are people that think the moon landing was a hoax with no evidence to back it up.

These guys seem to have done their research and have the evidence to back up what they believe. They said that the city has glyphs in various places and the very city itself is a glyph.

That doesn't seem like "crazy conspiracy theorists" to me.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Doesn't that go both way? The Templars weren't exactly portrayed fairly in DA2 either. DA2 pretty much showcased the worst both sides have to offer.

....

You do realize I said they need to portray both sides equally, fairly and smartly, right? Both. Sides.

They need to show the worst as well as the best in the system to make a good case for each.

All they did was show the worst.

Since there was a distinct lack of "the worst" in DA:O, it seems only fair that they use the second installment of their game to show the worst.

[TEWR]

Since there was a distinct lack of "the worst" in DA:O, it seems only fair that they use the second installment of their game to show the worst.

Obviously, but not to the point of excluding a story that makes sense. Hawke has no knowledge of the what the Templars in Ferelden are like, and we are effectively Hawke.

[WhiteKnyght]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Codex entries aren't always accurate. Gaider said that himself. They are literal writings in the DA world and are written to the author's best knowledge, which leaves room for human error.

That argument doesn't hold up to this considering everything the Band of Three discovered. Kirkwall was purposely designed in the form of a magical glyph, rivers of blood run underneath the city, treasure troves of vast and forgotten arcane arts lay beneath the city in the hidden alcoves, and so many other things.

This goes way beyond claiming "LOL author is wrong. We're right."

They wouldn't have made the Band of Three discover so much if they didn't want them to be right. And now Gaider is dismissing it, saying that there was no purpose for their actions other than to be sadistic pricks to their slaves.

They don't need a glyph to do that. They don't need rivers of blood to do that. They did that just fine in their homeland.

Ever consider that the Band of Three might have jumped to the wrong conclusion? Gaider said that Kirkwall wasn't built with anything sinister in mind. Not that it wasn't used for another purpose later.

Supposedly, the ritual the Magisters used to go to the Black City took the lives of thousands of slaves along with a massive amount of lyrium as the price. Kirkwall was a slave trading mecca and a mining city. So it's reasonable to think that the Magisters might see it as a good source of materials.

The truth of the matter might be that Kirkwall was really the site of the largest blood ritual ever performed and they just don't want to spoil it yet.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Also one other reason he gave to explain why there seems to be so many blood mages is proximity. Hawke's interesting line of work puts him in places where he's more likely to cross blood magic. But that doesn't mean that they outnumber the normal mages.

I don't buy this either. If they want us to take an interest in the mage-Templar conflict, they need to portray both sides equally, fairly, and smartly.

This is just another excuse imo.

It's arguable that alll the good mages in Kirkwall were locked up in the Circle. Even Anders says in game that his Mage Underground friends had to resort to blood magic to stay free. The Gallows is large enough to house thousands of people, wheras you don't even see a hundred Blood mages running free.

Also no they don't really have to. Plenty of stories have a victim and a perpetrator. The choice between the Mages and Templars is more if you want your Hawke to be a savior or a destroyer. Mages = Good/Paragon, Templar = Bad/Renegade

The Templar's try to keep the mages down by using fear and intimidation, and they hide behind their so called god, The Maker, as a cheap justification to keep people from sympathizing with them. But they're really pushing more mages into becoming abominations than are becoming them naturally. Gaider also said that a weak will makes a mage more vulnerable, and it's common knowledge that fear makes a person weak. If the Templars would play nicer, the mages might be more willing to cooperate.

The truth of it is that the problem is the Templars. I'm not saying they need to go extinct, but that they need to reform. If they played nicer, treated the mages like people, and allowed them some personal liberties and comforts. Everybody might be safer overall.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 14 février 2012 - 07:09 .

[TEWR]

Filament wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Band of Three could just as well be crazy conspiracy theorists. That's not really a contradiction of "lore."

Crazy conspiracy theorists are people that think the moon landing was a hoax with no evidence to back it up.

Um, no, they have plenty of "evidence." Maybe you haven't read about many conspiracy theories...

Regardless, I don't think this would be a "crazy conspiracy theory"

[esper]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Band of Three could just as well be crazy conspiracy theorists. That's not really a contradiction of "lore."

Crazy conspiracy theorists are people that think the moon landing was a hoax with no evidence to back it up.

These guys seem to have done their research and have the evidence to back up what they believe. They said that the city has glyphs in various places and the very city itself is a glyph.

That doesn't seem like "crazy conspiracy theorists" to me.

That sound like the exact thing a crazy conspiration theorist would say.
Theorist one: Oh... we found a glyph here, here and there.
Theorist two: They must be connected
Theorist one: Oh... Wait if we draw a map of the streets I bet the fit into it too... Oh, wait it does.
Theorist two: Who would have guess?


If you want to see a connection, you see a connection. If you want to find a pattern, you will find one. It doesn't mean that there is one. If you study too much and with people who are inclined to agree with you, you run a much, much larger risk of only seeing the things that confirm the theory you had and none of the things that contradict your theory.

[TEWR]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Ever consider that the Band of Three might have jumped to the wrong conclusion? Gaider said that Kirkwall wasn't built with anything sinister in mind. Not that it wasn't used for another purpose later.

Rereading the interview, you may actually be right. He seems to imply more that Kirkwall was originally built as just a slave trade hub, but then the Magisters did attempt something.

Specifically this section:

Yes and no. The thing to remember as well is that the Circles were created to help Thedas as well. We had the Blights, and the first Circles were created shortly after the first Blight. The mages become vitally important when there's a Blight in order to combat the darkspawn. So it wasn't like the Chantry wanted to cripple the mages, they wanted them to have the power they needed to help humanity. But to give on one you lose the other, there's a bit of a conundrum. As to what the Tevinters were up to in Kirkwall, when they realized what they had available, you had some mentions of it in the codex. I don't know whether we'll ever follow up on that story. Ultimately they did not succeed because the slaves eventually rebelled, there was the giant rebellion. What you have left is the remnants of what they were attempting at the time.


So I may have jumped the gun myself. Gaider does seem to state that the Magisters were attempting something years after realizing the "potential benefits" -- in the Magisters' minds -- of Kirkwall.

So mea culpa.

Which means that the Band of Three aren't conspiracy theorists, Filament and Esper.

The Grey Nayr wrote...

It's arguable that alll the good mages in Kirkwall were locked up in the Circle. Even Anders says in game that his Mage Underground friends had to resort to blood magic to stay free. The Gallows is large enough to house thousands of people, wheras you don't even see a hundred Blood mages running free.

As a note, I think Bioware tried too hard to push the "Blood mages = evil!" agenda. Just because a mage may use blood magic doesn't make him evil.

Also no they don't really have to.

Yes they do. If they only showed the abusers, then why the hell would you want to side with them if they're the ones causing the problem in the first place? 


 

Plenty of stories have a victim and a perpetrator. The choice between the Mages and Templars is more if you want your Hawke to be a savior or a destroyer. Mages = Good/Paragon, Templar = Bad/Renegade

I've posted my ideas before, and I'll give a very brief snippet of what they were: Hawke could've still been these things -- a man caught up in events beyond his control and faced with a moral dilemma -- without the story or the characters suffering from it. 

The Templar's try to keep the mages down by using fear and intimidation, and they hide behind their so called god, The Maker, as a cheap justification to keep people from sympathizing with them. But they're really pushing more mages into becoming abominations than are becoming them naturally. Gaider also said that a weak will makes a mage more vulnerable, and it's common knowledge that fear makes a person weak. If the Templars would play nicer, the mages might be more willing to cooperate.

So then why should we side with the Templars in DAII if Bioware was so intent on making almost all of Kirkwall's Templars the real problem? If they did their jobs right, Kirkwall wouldn't be in the state it's in.

Why should I side with the abusers and the people that won't do their job? What incentive do I have to do that if they are the reason things have fallen to pieces? How can I trust them to do their job if most of them have never once done it, save for a very scant few?

We need to see the abusers to show that the system is flawed, but we also need to see enough good Templars that do their job to feel confident in our choice being right. Even if it's debatable.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 février 2012 - 07:29 .

[philippe willaume]

esper wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Band of Three could just as well be crazy conspiracy theorists. That's not really a contradiction of "lore."

Crazy conspiracy theorists are people that think the moon landing was a hoax with no evidence to back it up.

These guys seem to have done their research and have the evidence to back up what they believe. They said that the city has glyphs in various places and the very city itself is a glyph.

That doesn't seem like "crazy conspiracy theorists" to me.

That sound like the exact thing a crazy conspiration theorist would say.
Theorist one: Oh... we found a glyph here, here and there.
Theorist two: They must be connected
Theorist one: Oh... Wait if we draw a map of the streets I bet the fit into it too... Oh, wait it does.
Theorist two: Who would have guess?


If you want to see a connection, you see a connection. If you want to find a pattern, you will find one. It doesn't mean that there is one. If you study too much and with people who are inclined to agree with you, you run a much, much larger risk of only seeing the things that confirm the theory you had and none of the things that contradict your theory.

Hello
well no if you see a pattern then there is one. It does not equates to getting the meaning of the said patern right or that the said pattern has a meaning you can explain with the present state of knowledge.
 
We can faf about is a conspiracy theory , a splipage of mister G, or may be one the dev/writer secretly like Chtulu and was a fan of the late 1920 setting in Paris (where a great ancient symbol was carved across Paris), may be it was a story that was cut.
 
It is just one more of the loose thread in the DA:2 fabric.
I hope we will get a actIII epilogue DLC and all will be resolve.
Have faith,
In fact I am going to sacrifice an ox to Hephaestus to make it happen.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Since there was a distinct lack of "the worst" in DA:O, it seems only fair that they use the second installment of their game to show the worst.

Obviously, but not to the point of excluding a story that makes sense. Hawke has no knowledge of the what the Templars in Ferelden are like, and we are effectively Hawke.

Irrelevant to the larger picture. We, as players, had not seen the bad side of either Templars or mages yet, with DA2 we have. Granted that a new player to the fanchise may have a skewered view of it. But no more so, than a player of only DA:o have.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Blacklash93 wrote...

I'm sorry, Mr. Gaider, but I just can't believe you. There were too many questionable things going on in Kirkwall and the BoT questions the notion that the Tevinters chose this place for the convinient location too many times.

I found and read the interview. I see no contradiction as such. What Gaider said is simply this: That Kirkwall was chosen as a place on the fringes of the Imperium so that the Magisters could do as they might please with the slaves, outside the sight of any prying eyes. Dirty business and all that. This does not contradict the point that the Imperium found the already existing quarries at Kirkwall and started the construction of the Imperial Highway after they started construction of the City. Admittedly, the patterns of the City itself (the glyph-like patterns) are curious, but that's just speculation on  the part of the BoT - his heart skipping a beat isn't any real evidence. And Gaider does note that having now established a City, having a ready supply of slaves and an ever thinning Veil, Kirkwall was an ideal location for the Magisters to carry out arcane research underneath the City. And Gaider says a bit further down: "As to what the Tevinters were up to in Kirkwall, when they realized what they had available, you had some mentions of it in the codex. I don't know whether we'll ever follow up on that story. Ultimately they did not succeed because the slaves eventually rebelled, there was a giant rebellion. What you have left is the remnants of what they were attempting at that time."

Did I somehow misunderstand you?

Kirkwall was meant to be something greater. It was made for a very specific purpose by the Tevinters. And you know what? It still could live up to that. This plot need to be resolved. It is far too interesting to leave behind and pretend it meant little. That would not only be a huge disservice to the series' potential, but also to the fans who have put so much interest and thought into this story.

I think the suggestion was that the Imperium might have been trying to re-enter the Black City, which Gaider has not denied. What it means though is that the Golden City wasn't entered from Kirkwall - that debacle went on elsewhere. I'm rather keen on knowing about that on a failed attempt.

Kirkwall was a very boring city with very a fascinating past. Why waste the opportunity to give Kirkwall the dark character it was meant to have? Can we get a DLC, a resolution in the codex in future DA installments, or at least something that doesn't leave us hanging like this?

You're simply asking for something that may not have had much significance. I'd rather Gaider & Co. elaborated more on that presence that the elves and men together were fleeing from, as recounted by that arcane warrior spirit in the Brecellian ruins. I'd rather they elaborated more on what exactly that Primeval Thaig was. And not to mention the actual entering of the Golden City, and tell us what the darkspawn are and where they came from. And about Arlathan. I see so much potential in so many other things that they could follow up on. And I'd rather they left Kirkwall for good and moved on. It's a depressing place.

What was Kirkwall? The means to perform a giant ritual or spell? An experimental ground for... something? To leave this unaddressed and to wrongly regard it as something unimportant would be a huge black mark on this series for me that I wouldn't easily forget. 

As I said, I'm waiting for what I consider are more story-worthy for me. And the BoT research seems like a dead end at the moment.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Since there was a distinct lack of "the worst" in DA:O, it seems only fair that they use the second installment of their game to show the worst.

Obviously, but not to the point of excluding a story that makes sense. Hawke has no knowledge of the what the Templars in Ferelden are like, and we are effectively Hawke.

Irrelevant to the larger picture. We, as players, had not seen the bad side of either Templars or mages yet, with DA2 we have. Granted that a new player to the fanchise may have a skewered view of it. But no more so, than a player of only DA:o have.

It's completely relevant. We're discussing how the player should feel about the situation. The point of a roleplaying game is to metagame as little as possible. What the player knows isn't always what Hawke knows. So, Hawke and the player need to see a fair portrayal of both sides in DAII so that what the player and Hawke knows are the same thing. Which requires excluding DAO and the knowledge it presented to the Warden.

But DAO counteracted this by having the Mages portrayed fairly, showing the good mages and the evil ones. To a point. The moral dilemma lost itself when you can save the mages in the Circle without any consequences, which I found to be cheap.

Additionally, we can see Rylock in Awakening going outside of Chantry jurisdiction to bring in Anders. Now, I will certainly admit that we needed to see more bad Templars in DAO. But it wasn't as if DAO made the mages out to be the right choice. At least, not entirely.

When it reached the point where saving all the mages has no consequence, then you do have the mages being the right choice sadly.

Though, DAII could've presented the Lothering Templars not being a bunch of good guys if there was an actual prologue, as I don't consider DAII's "prologue" one. The named Templar we met in DAO would still be a good guy, but maybe some of his charges would be portrayed as bad. And then maybe we'd see some of his other charges portrayed as good.

This would've helped to counter the idea of all of Ferelden's Templars being all good guys, because as it stands we only have Anders' word of mouth on there being bad Templars in Ferelden's Circle. Now, Lothering is obviously not the Circle, but it would've supported Anders' statement a bit better. If there were bad Templars in Lothering, maybe there were some in Kinloch Hold.

Personally, I don't think Anders is lying there, but anyway....

And wasn't DAII also called in a few dev posts as a game that new players could get into easily? All the more reason for the sides to be portrayed fairly and equally. The new players need to feel like both sides have their pros and cons, and not just cons.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 février 2012 - 07:42 .

[esper]

philippe willaume wrote...

esper wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Band of Three could just as well be crazy conspiracy theorists. That's not really a contradiction of "lore."

Crazy conspiracy theorists are people that think the moon landing was a hoax with no evidence to back it up.

These guys seem to have done their research and have the evidence to back up what they believe. They said that the city has glyphs in various places and the very city itself is a glyph.

That doesn't seem like "crazy conspiracy theorists" to me.

That sound like the exact thing a crazy conspiration theorist would say.
Theorist one: Oh... we found a glyph here, here and there.
Theorist two: They must be connected
Theorist one: Oh... Wait if we draw a map of the streets I bet the fit into it too... Oh, wait it does.
Theorist two: Who would have guess?


If you want to see a connection, you see a connection. If you want to find a pattern, you will find one. It doesn't mean that there is one. If you study too much and with people who are inclined to agree with you, you run a much, much larger risk of only seeing the things that confirm the theory you had and none of the things that contradict your theory.

Hello
well no if you see a pattern then there is one. It does not equates to getting the meaning of the said patern right or that the said pattern has a meaning you can explain with the present state of knowledge.
 
We can faf about is a conspiracy theory , a splipage of mister G, or may be one the dev/writer secretly like Chtulu and was a fan of the late 1920 setting in Paris (where a great ancient symbol was carved across Paris), may be it was a story that was cut.
 
It is just one more of the loose thread in the DA:2 fabric.
I hope we will get a actIII epilogue DLC and all will be resolve.
Have faith,
In fact I am going to sacrifice an ox to Hephaestus to make it happen.

Not necessarily, you can see a lot of dots and then connect them because you brain wants them to be connected. That doesn't mean that there is a pattern for anyone than you.
We have a pretty infamous school example in Denmark with two stastic and an common lie where we tell little children that the Stork comes with the babies:
Statistic 1: Birth rate is getting lower every year in a certain time period
Statistic 2: The stork (a kind of bird, my dictionary is weird here) is getting rarere in the same time period. 

Weird pattern that there are not really there: Birth rate/The stork are both dropping, ergo it is true that the Stork comes with the little babies. 

The only pattern there are is: Birth rate is dropping and the Stork is getting rare.  The two dots is not in anyway connected unless we want the connection and thus look for it.

Depending on how crazy the band of three was it could be the same.
They found a glyph in a former Tevinter city. In itself not suprising, they found more than one, still not suprising, but the two glyphs might not be connected. They could have been drawn by two different magisters for all we know, We sure never saw them and anyone other than the band of three didn't see them.
The streets are formed as a glyph... Really? Which map did they look on, all of them, one of them. Was all the streets drawn of it? Did they take every little alley or shortcut into consideration or just the ones that fit their view? Again without other people than the band of three being able to see the pattern their words sadly means little as they were looking for something and thus is naturally inclinced to find what they are looking for.

[philippe willaume]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

snip

It's arguable that alll the good mages in Kirkwall were locked up in the Circle. Even Anders says in game that his Mage Underground friends had to resort to blood magic to stay free. The Gallows is large enough to house thousands of people, wheras you don't even see a hundred Blood mages running free.

Also no they don't really have to. Plenty of stories have a victim and a perpetrator. The choice between the Mages and Templars is more if you want your Hawke to be a savior or a destroyer. Mages = Good/Paragon, Templar = Bad/Renegade

The Templar's try to keep the mages down by using fear and intimidation, and they hide behind their so called god, The Maker, as a cheap justification to keep people from sympathizing with them. But they're really pushing more mages into becoming abominations than are becoming them naturally. Gaider also said that a weak will makes a mage more vulnerable, and it's common knowledge that fear makes a person weak. If the Templars would play nicer, the mages might be more willing to cooperate.

The truth of it is that the problem is the Templars. I'm not saying they need to go extinct, but that they need to reform. If they played nicer, treated the mages like people, and allowed them some personal liberties and comforts. Everybody might be safer overall.

That is one way to put it, and it really depends on how you see it, there were a few mage plots and deranged maniacal mage to make the templar looks as the good side.
or at lest it could have been, if M hadn't been such thrush and O tuning out to be dear diary at the last minute.
 
It tuned out that other that the mage in your group and a precious few templar, the template and the mage turned out to be massive bunch of muppets.
Our Hawke is neither a savoir/destroyer/paragon/renegade he is just a passenger that care even less than the player.
 
I agree that siding with either faction should have been an option but like the original post it is just a bunch of speculations.
Phil

[TEWR]

Not necessarily, you can see a lot of dots and then connect them because you brain wants them to be connected. That doesn't mean that there is a pattern for anyone than you.
We have a pretty infamous school example in Denmark with two stastic and an common lie where we tell little children that the Stork comes with the babies:
Statistic 1: Birth rate is getting lower every year in a certain time period
Statistic 2: The stork (a kind of bird, my dictionary is weird here) is getting rarere in the same time period.

Weird pattern that there are not really there: Birth rate/The stork are both dropping, ergo it is true that the Stork comes with the little babies.

The only pattern there are is: Birth rate is dropping and the Stork is getting rare. The two dots is not in anyway connected unless we want the connection and thus look for it.

That's.... not really the same thing. The mind of a child is different from the mind of an adult.

Depending on how crazy the band of three was it could be the same.
They found a glyph in a former Tevinter city. In itself not suprising, they found more than one, still not suprising, but the two glyphs might not be connected. They could have been drawn by two different magisters for all we know, We sure never saw them and anyone other than the band of three didn't see them.
The streets are formed as a glyph... Really? Which map did they look on, all of them, one of them. Was all the streets drawn of it? Did they take every little alley or shortcut into consideration or just the ones that fit their view? Again without other people than the band of three being able to see the pattern their words sadly means little as they were looking for something and thus is naturally inclinced to find what they are looking for.

As I said above, rereading the interview Gaider did confirm that the Band of Three were right that the Magisters did attempt something and the remnants of it are there.

Which means that the Band of Three aren't conspiracy theorists or crazy.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 février 2012 - 07:47 .

[philippe willaume]

esper wrote...

Not necessarily, you can see a lot of dots and then connect them because you brain wants them to be connected. That doesn't mean that there is a pattern for anyone than you.
We have a pretty infamous school example in Denmark with two stastic and an common lie where we tell little children that the Stork comes with the babies:
Statistic 1: Birth rate is getting lower every year in a certain time period
Statistic 2: The stork (a kind of bird, my dictionary is weird here) is getting rarere in the same time period. 

Weird pattern that there are not really there: Birth rate/The stork are both dropping, ergo it is true that the Stork comes with the little babies. 

The only pattern there are is: Birth rate is dropping and the Stork is getting rare.  The two dots is not in anyway connected unless we want the connection and thus look for it.

Depending on how crazy the band of three was it could be the same.
They found a glyph in a former Tevinter city. In itself not suprising, they found more than one, still not suprising, but the two glyphs might not be connected. They could have been drawn by two different magisters for all we know, We sure never saw them and anyone other than the band of three didn't see them.
The streets are formed as a glyph... Really? Which map did they look on, all of them, one of them. Was all the streets drawn of it? Did they take every little alley or shortcut into consideration or just the ones that fit their view? Again without other people than the band of three being able to see the pattern their words sadly means little as they were looking for something and thus is naturally inclinced to find what they are looking for.

hello Esper

Well what is wrong is the sillogism.
But both patterns are true.
the birth rate is dropping and there is less storks each year.

What is wrong is to say
less stork = colder climate and colder climate=shrinkage of ....=> less babies

if i give you 2.3.5.7 some will see a pattern some will not see it, it does mot mean anything but it is there.

I see what you are getting at. It is basically the giant close way. for a long time the regularity of the hexogmal pattern led to the belief that it was man made where as it is very very likely to be a geological phenomenon but non the less the pattern is there.
phil