108 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

Suddenly headcanon is a great tool when it comes to supporting the mages' case.

Not really. I'm not giving any headcanon into this. I'm just stating that no one knows exactly what he was and wasn't doing, as I've seen many pro-Templar posters point at Orsino and say he wasn't doing anything about the situation.

Obviously, no one can say what he was or wasn't doing.

I don't even use headcanon for what Orsino may or may not have done. It's irrelevant to me. At least, not when I played the game. For my DAII fanfic, obviously I'm going to make some headcanon be known.

Additionally, did I ever talk about headcanon in a way that said it didn't apply for a situation in this thread? I know I did it in another thread where Leandra being warned was the topic at hand, but that's different. I see what was said in-game as a contradiction to the headcanon of "Hawke warned her", and thus I will never believe that Hawke warned her.

Whereas for Orsino, nothing is given that would contradict his own style of trying to bring down Quentin, even if he was too late to do it before Leandra was kidnapped and Hawke killed him first.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 15 février 2012 - 08:06 .

[TEWR]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I'd also add that we don't know what Orsino was doing. We only know that he didn't inform the Templars, but perhaps he had connections on the outside that he was using to try and take down Quentin on his own. Maybe he began acting too late, and Leandra suffered for it and Hawke killed Quentin before doing anything.

We don't really know.

That's actually not true.

http://dragonage.wik...from_the_Circle

When you're in Quentin's lair under the foundry, you can find this letter from Orsino in his living area. Orsino was literally aiding and abetting Quentin. And knew him well enough that Quentin would show him his research.

Like Xilizhra said, that letter could be older then people assume. We know Orsino called the notes on the Harvester too horrible and evil to use, which means that what was referred to in that letter aren't the Harvester notes.

Quentin was doing research into blood magic and necromancy and sending his notes to Orsino. Orsino found these notes to be astonishing and whatnot, but when Quentin sent him a detailed report on the Harvester ritual he saw the error of what he had done by aiding him.

At that time, Orsino didn't know Quentin was killing people for his own personal and twisted purposes.

That letter is -- based on Orsino's dialogue when he's about to off himself and at which point he has no reason to lie -- from Quentin's pre-Harvester report.

[esper]

Filament wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Additionally, did I ever talk about headcanon in a way that said it didn't apply for a situation in this thread? I know I did it in another thread where Leandra being warned was the topic at hand, but that's different. I see what was said in-game as a contradiction to the headcanon of "Hawke warned her", and thus I will never believe that Hawke warned her.

Whereas for Orsino, nothing is given that would contradict his own style of trying to bring down Quentin, even if he was too late to do it before Leandra was kidnapped and Hawke killed him first.

That's just because you want to see contradiction in that headcanon but not this one. You've just arbitrarily chosen that the evidence making it unlikely in Leandra's case is relevant while the evidence making it unlikely in Orsino's case is not. I maintain that in either case it's not relevant if we're dealing in explicit contradictions (as you were arguing so resolutely about how it couldn't be true with Leandra) but they are relevant if you want to ask how likely it is that a given interpretation is correct.

And I think the likelihood that Orsino was actually trying to take Quentin down, despite his support evidenced by that letter and despite using the research himself  (oh wait, he has an eidetic memory, right )... is slim.

Well, I do think Orsino was scared from the research, he expresses so much. Personally I think Orsino after being scared was closing his eyes and wishing that Quintin just wouldn't do something dangerous and flashy so everyone could see that a crazy mage was on the loose.

I just don't see how you practice going harvester. Seems like a one way trip into monster-land.

[TEWR]

I just don't see how you practice going harvester. Seems like a one way trip into monster-land

Indeed. That's why I say that he had an eidetic memory and the thoroughly detailed report was ingrained in his memory because of how horrific it was, despite how he wished he could forget it. The Harvester ritual is in fact a one way trip. You can't reverse that. You can't practice that.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 15 février 2012 - 08:29 .

[TEWR]

Filament wrote...

First, I don't see how you can become a harvester with just passing knowledge. It's a nearly unstoppable abomination, that has to require some kind of advanced technique.

I don't see why you think that there would've been a passing knowledge of the complex ritual. There's nothing in-game to suggest that Quentin would've sent a "passing knowledge" of the inner workings of the ritual.

But I also don't understand the notion that practice has to be hands-on. He could just as well study it in theory without actually doing the ritual.

In theory is radically different from in practice.

And considering he says he put it aside when he first got it due to how evil it was-- when he's about to off himself, so there's no reason at all to lie because it gains him nothing if he's going to go Harvestino -- I think it's safe to say he wasn't studying it at all.

Or, you know, have an eidetic memory, if you please, but I also find that wishful thinking.

There could be a very easy way to show he has an eidetic memory. They did it several times with Thane in ME2. No such occurrence in DA2.

Of course. I realize that we don't actually get any hint of this, but considering we meet him so late in the game and Bioware didn't even care to characterize Orsino, it's the only thing that makes sense given everything he says.

Remember, the game was rushed. I'm assuming ME2 wasn't rushed, and was thus able to account for giving an eidetic memory for this Thane character.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 15 février 2012 - 08:43 .

[esper]

Filament wrote...

esper wrote...

I just don't see how you practice going harvester. Seems like a one way trip into monster-land.

First, I don't see how you can become a harvester with just passing knowledge. It's a nearly unstoppable abomination, that has to require some kind of advanced technique.

But I also don't understand the notion that practice has to be hands-on. He could just as well study it in theory without actually doing the ritual.

Or, you know, have an eidetic memory, if you please, but I also find that wishful thinking.

There could be a very easy way to show he has an eidetic memory. They did it several times with Thane in ME2. No such occurrence in DA2.

Well, we don't really interact with Orsino like we do with Thane. But it does it really matter. The ritual required a lot of dead mages. Orsino couldn't practice it beforehand without Meridith knowing.

I do think he read the theory well through. The basis of Quintins studies are actually interesting, tissue preservance, how to move thing without them dying. If you can move a head and keep it alive, you could perhaos move less not as vital limbs and organs and without them losing their functionality. Now Quintin used this horrible, horrible wrong, but it does have some intersting effects that could be used for good as well.

I have already said that I do think Orsino simply closed his eyes once he realised just how crazy Quintin had become. I don't think that he studied the harvester intently though, I simply thinkt that he simply read it and remembered it. You don't need eidetic memory for that. If something is horrible enough you are much more likely to remember it. 

[WhiteKnyght]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I'd also add that we don't know what Orsino was doing. We only know that he didn't inform the Templars, but perhaps he had connections on the outside that he was using to try and take down Quentin on his own. Maybe he began acting too late, and Leandra suffered for it and Hawke killed Quentin before doing anything.

We don't really know.

That's actually not true.

http://dragonage.wik...from_the_Circle

When you're in Quentin's lair under the foundry, you can find this letter from Orsino in his living area. Orsino was literally aiding and abetting Quentin. And knew him well enough that Quentin would show him his research.

Like Xilizhra said, that letter could be older then people assume. We know Orsino called the notes on the Harvester too horrible and evil to use, which means that what was referred to in that letter aren't the Harvester notes.

Quentin was doing research into blood magic and necromancy and sending his notes to Orsino. Orsino found these notes to be astonishing and whatnot, but when Quentin sent him a detailed report on the Harvester ritual he saw the error of what he had done by aiding him.

At that time, Orsino didn't know Quentin was killing people for his own personal and twisted purposes.

That letter is -- based on Orsino's dialogue when he's about to off himself and at which point he has no reason to lie -- from Quentin's pre-Harvester report.

You said that Orsino was trying to take down Quentin himself, the letter proved that he knew about Quentin and was aiding him in his research. Quentin's research was about molding dead flesh together to create a new form. In his case, his dead wife. Orsino just wanted something powerful enough to beat the Templars, not something specific like Quentin. So a Harvester and a flesh golem to ride around in was right up that alley.

Orsino gave a reason for not reporting Quentin as not wanting to give Meredith any ammunition. It was selfish, and considering the letter, only one reason. Not telling the Templars is one thing, stealing books from the Circle and leaving them at a drop point for Quentin to use is quite another.

What it proved was that Meredith was right about Orsino. But not necessarily about the whole Circle.

[TEWR]

You said that Orsino was trying to take down Quentin himself, the letter proved that he knew about Quentin and was aiding him in his research.

1) I said he may have been trying to take him down after realizing what he was doing

2) Just because he aided him once doesn't mean he's going to continue aiding him.

Quentin's research was about molding dead flesh together to create a new form. In his case, his dead wife. Orsino just wanted something powerful enough to beat the Templars, not something specific like Quentin. So a Harvester and a flesh golem to ride around in was right up that alley.

considering Orsino's real qualm was with Meredith and her like-minded cronies, and not the Templars as a whole, it's wrong to say he just wanted to defeat the Templars.

Especially considering he wished he hadn't interfered with the rebellion that was aimed solely at Meredith and her like-minded cronies.

Orsino gave a reason for not reporting Quentin as not wanting to give Meredith any ammunition. It was selfish, and considering the letter, only one reason. Not telling the Templars is one thing, stealing books from the Circle and leaving them at a drop point for Quentin to use is quite another.

Again, you have no evidence to say that the letter is a recent one. It could be the last letter that he sent before receiving the Harvester ritual report, which freaked the hell out of him. Considering Quentin had notes of his scattered about from 3 years ago and Orsino's own testimony on how horrid it was, I find it likely that it's just an old note Quentin hung on to.

[TEWR]

Another thing. All of this "how horrid it was" is based on him saying it was "too evil" when you side with the mages. How can you say he has "no reason to lie" on the basis of him being about to kill himself, when he's about to kill himself in either scenario and yet his story evidently changes anyway? A little thing called honor could easily explain why he would want to downplay his involvement, even in death, among those he perceives as 'noble.'

He says in the pro-templar side that he had never used blood magic before that point

And he also says he put it aside because it was too dangerous in the pro-templar side as well, so.... yea.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 15 février 2012 - 11:48 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

You said that Orsino was trying to take down Quentin himself, the letter proved that he knew about Quentin and was aiding him in his research.

1) I said he may have been trying to take him down after realizing what he was doing

2) Just because he aided him once doesn't mean he's going to continue aiding him.

So, he didn't want to aid him, and he didn't want to report him eitehr? So his position was one of apathy towards a mass murderer? Doesn't exactly put Orsino in a good light.

Nothing in game indicates that Orsino was trying to take Quentin down. NOTHING. So claiming that he might have wanted to, is kinda wishful thinking, and pretty much baseless. All we got is: He was very interested in Quentin's research, he aided Quentin's research by sending him Circle books, he didn't want to turn him in, in fear of Meredith, and at some point the research of Quentin became too horrifying for Orsino.

By the way, for all we know the research of Quentin may have come into Orsino's possession after Quentin's death, since it is rather likely that the Templars sweeped Quentin's hideout after his death. And I'd also like to point out, that while we have no evidence that the letter is recent, we have no proof either that it is old. All that the letter provides us is that Orsino was actively aiding Quentin.

[WhiteKnyght]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Quentin's research was about molding dead flesh together to create a new form. In his case, his dead wife. Orsino just wanted something powerful enough to beat the Templars, not something specific like Quentin. So a Harvester and a flesh golem to ride around in was right up that alley.

considering Orsino's real qualm was with Meredith and her like-minded cronies, and not the Templars as a whole, it's wrong to say he just wanted to defeat the Templars.

Especially considering he wished he hadn't interfered with the rebellion that was aimed solely at Meredith and her like-minded cronies.

The Templars as a whole were actively slaughtering his friends, coworkers, and apprentices. And unlike Darkspawn, cutting off the snake's head doesn't stop the horde. At least not yet.

Turning on the Champion was what turned the templars against Meredith.

So yes, Orsino wanted to become something powerful enough to stop them. Or at least take as many with him as he can when he died.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So, he didn't want to aid him, and he didn't want to report him eitehr? So his position was one of apathy towards a mass murderer? Doesn't exactly put Orsino in a good light.

No.

What I'm saying is that he aided him up to a point, realized what he had done, realized that he couldn't report him, and didn't want to aid him any longer so he may -- that's the key word since absolutely no one can definitively say what he did and didn't do regarding Quentin other then not reporting him to the Templars, and for good reason -- have tried to take him down in his own way.

Maybe he had been trying for a long time, but didn't make much progress. Maybe he started two hours before Leandra was kidnapped, but Hawke took care of Quentin.

I'm saying that since no one knows what he did and didn't do and since the game doesn't contradict the possibility, he may have done something to move against Quentin.

Which makes him far from apathetic. It actually makes him more of a noble character.

Nothing in game indicates that Orsino was trying to take Quentin down. NOTHING. 

you're right! I didn't notice that my post saying what he may or may not have done being unknown to the players was... well... speculation! How could I have been so blind? Oh, woe is me. Woe. Woe! Woe!!!

You know the whole absence of evidence is not evidence of absence schtick? Yea... I think that applies here.

@Filament, if you're still a part of this thread: I expect you'll probably counter this particular section by saying that it probably applies to Hawke and Leandra.

By the way, for all we know the research of Quentin may have come into Orsino's possession after Quentin's death, since it is rather likely that the Templars sweeped Quentin's hideout after his death. And I'd also like to point out, that while we have no evidence that the letter is recent, we have no proof either that it is old. All that the letter provides us is that Orsino was actively aiding Quentin.

I... kinda doubt that the Templars would hand a ritual on how to go Harvester to Orsino considering it deals with blood magic and they really don't like the mages there. Well, most of them don't. I mean, seriously think about that.

You're saying that Templars would've done a sweep of the place and handed Orsino stuff on blood magic and necromancy? Really?

The sweep is likely, but the handing of that type of information isn't. And if they did, that puts part -- or all -- of the blame for Orsino's Harvestino incident on their shoulders. That would mean that they were likely trying to pull an Uldred.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 16 février 2012 - 04:04 .

[nightscrawl]

Blacklash93 wrote...

Just a convinient location? Let's see what the codex has to say about that.

...

I'm sorry, Mr. Gaider, but I just can't believe you. There were too many questionable things going on in Kirkwall and the BoT questions the notion that the Tevinters chose this place for the convinient location too many times.

You must remember that all of the codex entries are written by fictional characters. They are taken from groups like the Band of Three, Brother Genitivi or other Chantry scholars, and even excerpts from the Chant of Light. While some are based on those individuals' research into certain matters, they're all subjective. David Gaider on the other hand, is the Maker himself as far as Thedas lore is concerned. True, things can and do change over time in game development. Perhaps when they were developing Kirkwall three years ago they had planned greater things, and hints of those plans are what ultimately ended up in the game. However, I'm more inclined to go with whatever DG says now, since it will be the most up-to-date information (unless he is/was being intentionally vague).

Modifié par nightscrawl, 16 février 2012 - 07:18 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'm saying that since no one knows what he did and didn't do and since the game doesn't contradict the possibility, he may have done something to move against Quentin.

Which makes him far from apathetic. It actually makes him more of a noble character.

 
So the complete and utter lack of proof of what you are speculating, makes him more noble?

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 
You know the whole absence of evidence is not evidence of absence schtick? Yea... I think that applies here.

 
Sadly when it comes to fictional characters and their personalities, more often than not does abscence of evidence mean evidence of abscence. Unless you are willing to admit that 80% of the pro-mages' claims about Meredith is just as speculative.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 
I... kinda doubt that the Templars would hand a ritual on how to go Harvester to Orsino considering it deals with blood magic and they really don't like the mages there. Well, most of them don't. I mean, seriously think about that.

You're saying that Templars would've done a sweep of the place and handed Orsino stuff on blood magic and necromancy? Really?

The sweep is likely, but the handing of that type of information isn't. And if they did, that puts part -- or all -- of the blame for Orsino's Harvestino incident on their shoulders. That would mean that they were likely trying to pull an Uldred.

Considering that the Enigma of Kirkwall describes a Templar library with forbidden lore within, I don't see why they wouldn't have taken such dangerous research there. That would've allowed the Templars to study that kind of magic, learn of its weaknesses and how to counter it.

[Xilizhra]

Sadly when it comes to fictional characters and their personalities, more often than not does abscence of evidence mean evidence of abscence. Unless you are willing to admit that 80% of the pro-mages' claims about Meredith is just as speculative.

Meredith has the advantage of being consistently written as opposed to having boss fight material shoved into them without proper justification. And really, what we don't need to speculate about Meredith is quite enough.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So the complete and utter lack of proof of what you are speculating, makes him more noble?

If it's what happened. I said it could make him noble, didn't I? If not, then that's what I meant.

Sadly when it comes to fictional characters and their personalities, more often than not does abscence of evidence mean evidence of abscence. Unless you are willing to admit that 80% of the pro-mages' claims about Meredith is just as speculative.

Like.... what exactly? All of the evidence about Meredith is concrete fact.

1) Fact: She was always unfit for the job
2) Fact: She acquired the idol in Act 2.
3) Fact: That same idol she acquired was broken at the time she got it. And Anders says the thing was more potent broken then intact
4) Fact: Varric began to be immediately affected by the broken idol fragment he held, which means that Meredith was affected immediately as well.
5) Fact: She was always off her rocker during Act 3 because everytime you see her, she's got the lyriumsaber on her back
6) Her Templars report her talking to someone that isn't ever there and becoming incredibly reclusive.
7) Both Templars and Mages that have been with the Circle for many years report that prior to Meredith the Circle was a different and much better place.

So... what about her is speculation exactly?

Considering that the Enigma of Kirkwall describes a Templar library with forbidden lore within, I don't see why they wouldn't have taken such dangerous research there. That would've allowed the Templars to study that kind of magic, learn of its weaknesses and how to counter it.

And it's entirely possible the EoK happened during the Templars' better years, and when the Templars changed that forbidden lore was disposed of.

And I have to wonder just why every single Circle is going to keep tomes and notes on blood magic when they're trying to make sure mages don't use it.

It's one thing to keep it in a Templars only section. But if they're going to keep it in a section that mages and Templars can access freely, then it's just absurd.

He doesn't say anything about it being evil. It seems to me that the fact that he's still moderating what he says depending on the context (whether Hawke sided with him or not) makes it questionable at best the notion that his imminent suicide must inspire absolute candor.

Or I suppose you could take it that the devs just wanted to make him less sympathetic if you sided with the templars, but that's a little meta.

I think if he's going to put it aside because it's too dangerous, he's also doing it because it's evil.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So the complete and utter lack of proof of what you are speculating, makes him more noble?

If it's what happened. I said it could make him noble, didn't I? If not, then that's what I meant.

 
Fair enough,

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 

Sadly when it comes to fictional characters and their personalities, more often than not does abscence of evidence mean evidence of abscence. Unless you are willing to admit that 80% of the pro-mages' claims about Meredith is just as speculative.

Like.... what exactly? All of the evidence about Meredith is concrete fact.

1) Fact: She was always unfit for the job
2) Fact: She acquired the idol in Act 2.
3) Fact: That same idol she acquired was broken at the time she got it. And Anders says the thing was more potent broken then intact
4) Fact: Varric began to be immediately affected by the broken idol fragment he held, which means that Meredith was affected immediately as well.
5) Fact: She was always off her rocker during Act 3 because everytime you see her, she's got the lyriumsaber on her back
6) Her Templars report her talking to someone that isn't ever there and becoming incredibly reclusive.
7) Both Templars and Mages that have been with the Circle for many years report that prior to Meredith the Circle was a different and much better place.

So... what about her is speculation exactly?

  

1) Disputed. Some would argue that she was the most fit for the job, since she had seen what mages were actually capable of.
2) True.
3) True.
4) Disputed. Varric was. But everyone else in the party are entirely unaffected, so it apepars that it affects dwarves differently than humans and elves. Especially since Varric's brother (who's name eludes me) needed to feed his servants lyrium and flesh to make them as insane as him.
5) Disputed. For the same reason as before. The idol affects humans differntly, it may have had a subtle influence on her, or none at all until the end.
6) True.
7) True.

Now for the actual parts of speculation about meredith:
1) That she hates all mages and want them all tranquil or dead.
2) That she would've killed Elthina if Anders hadn't done it before her.
3) That she secretly approved of Ser Alrik's Tranquil Solution, but officailly couldn't approve of it.
4) Random Meredith bashing based on nothing and aimed at making her apepar worse than she was.

Basically. Meredith is subject to a whole lot more speculation than Orsino.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 

Considering that the Enigma of Kirkwall describes a Templar library with forbidden lore within, I don't see why they wouldn't have taken such dangerous research there. That would've allowed the Templars to study that kind of magic, learn of its weaknesses and how to counter it.

And it's entirely possible the EoK happened during the Templars' better years, and when the Templars changed that forbidden lore was disposed of.

And I have to wonder just why every single Circle is going to keep tomes and notes on blood magic when they're trying to make sure mages don't use it.

It's one thing to keep it in a Templars only section. But if they're going to keep it in a section that mages and Templars can access freely, then it's just absurd.

  
I don't think that the Templar archieves was accesible to all mages. But since Orsino was First Enchanter he may have had acces, or he may have stolen it. I was just airing another possible way for Orsino to have obtained the research.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 16 février 2012 - 04:58 .

[TEWR]

1) Disputed. Some would argue that she was the most fit for the job, since she had seen what mages were actually capable of.

Not really. She has to be psychologically sound after seeing something like that. Cullen saw what mages were capable of, but he doesn't let it dictate how he does his job.

4) Disputed. Varric was. But everyone else in the party are entirely unaffected, so it apepars that it affects dwarves differently than humans and elves. Especially since Varric's brother (who's name eludes me) needed to feed his servants lyrium and flesh to make them as insane as him.

Considering the other party members didn't touch the idol and Varric was the only one that did, you have nothing to back up "it affects Dwarves differently".

The only person that touched it aside from Varric, Bartrand, and Meredith was Hawke. And he's the PC so they're not going to have him act erratic and unstable.

Anders only makes an observation on what it does, but he never once touched it.

5) Disputed. For the same reason as before. The idol affects humans differntly, it may have had a subtle influence on her, or none at all until the end.

Again, absolutely nothing to back up the assertion that humans and elves are affected differently since we have seen nothing to indicate that.

1) That she hates all mages and want them all tranquil or dead.

Considering she was actively seeking an Annulment against them during Act 3, yea she does!

2) That she would've killed Elthina if Anders hadn't done it before her.

Considering she calls Hawke a blood mage thrall simply for telling the truth that Orsino wasn't involved, it is likely! Hawke wouldn't incriminate Orsino. Meredith immediately thinks he's a thrall.

If Elthina wouldn't incriminate or side against the mages, can you honestly say she wouldn't have called her a thrall as well considering the fact that she flat out calls Hawke a blood mage thrall? If she did it once, she'll do it again.

3) That she secretly approved of Ser Alrik's Tranquil Solution, but officailly couldn't approve of it.

Considering the Templar had reported what Alrik was doing to her and Alrik kept on doing it anyway and reprimanded the Templar that reported him, yea she did!

I don't think that the Templar archieves was accesible to all mages. But since Orsino was First Enchanter he may have had acces, or he may have stolen it. I was just airing another possible way for Orsino to have obtained the research.

I just don't buy it.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 16 février 2012 - 05:08 .