[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
[quote]1) Disputed. Some would argue that she was the most fit for the job, since she had seen what mages were actually capable of.[/quote]
Not really. She has to be psychologically sound after seeing something like that. Cullen saw what mages were capable of, but he doesn't let it dictate how he does his job.
[/quote]
Cullen flat out states that the events in DA:O are the reason he has a hard time trusting mages... Anyway, there is no evidence of Meredith being psychologically unstable until after she recieves her sword. And even then her "paranoia" is actually justified since there was a conspicracy against her.
[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
[quote]
4) Disputed. Varric was. But everyone else in the party are entirely unaffected, so it apepars that it affects dwarves differently than humans and elves. Especially since Varric's brother (who's name eludes me) needed to feed his servants lyrium and flesh to make them as insane as him.[/quote]
Considering the other party members didn't touch the idol and Varric was the only one that did, you have nothing to back up "it affects Dwarves differently".
The only person that touched it aside from Varric, Bartrand, and Meredith was Hawke. And he's the PC so they're not going to have him act erratic and unstable.
Anders only makes an observation on what it does, but he never once touched it.
[/quote]
Hawke, a human, literally picks the idol up, holds it in his hands while it does its falshy thing, then hands it to Varric. No ill effect. I'm basing my statement on that.
[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
[quote]
5) Disputed. For the same reason as before. The idol affects humans differntly, it may have had a subtle influence on her, or none at all until the end.[/quote]
Again, absolutely nothing to back up the assertion that humans and elves are affected differently since we have seen nothing to indicate that.
[/quote]
We have seen very much to indicate that. The mere fact that its proximity makes Dwarves go mad, while humans doesn't go bonkers, immediately anyway, for instance.
[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
[quote]
1) That she hates all mages and want them all tranquil or dead.[/quote]
Considering she was actively seeking an Annulment against them during Act 3, yea she does!
[/quote]
I was talking more about mages on a global level. But even in the case you make, she only wanted the annulment when the amges had proven that they were too unruly to contain the situation anymore.
[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
[quote]
2) That she would've killed Elthina if Anders hadn't done it before her.[/quote]
Considering she calls Hawke a blood mage thrall simply for telling the truth that Orsino wasn't involved, it is likely! Hawke wouldn't incriminate Orsino. Meredith immediately thinks he's a thrall.
If Elthina wouldn't incriminate or side against the mages, can you honestly say she wouldn't have called her a thrall as well considering the fact that she flat out calls Hawke a blood mage thrall? If she did it once, she'll do it again.
[/quote]
For a guy who loves to specualte, you are sure quick to state that Orsino had nothing to do with the rebellion. Anyway, she only accuses the Champion of that if the Champion accuses her of being mad. And since a large segment of her Templars had just been put under a blood mages' sway, I'd say her accusations weren't baseless.
Also, if you go with diplomatic Hawke and tell her Orsino wasn't involved, she won't accuse Hawke of anything, but she will keep believing Orsino had a part in it. Again not entirely baseless, given that Orsino refused to aid her in rooting out the conspiracy.
[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
[quote]
3) That she secretly approved of Ser Alrik's Tranquil Solution, but officailly couldn't approve of it.[/quote]
Considering the Templar had reported what Alrik was doing to her and Alrik kept on doing it anyway and reprimanded the Templar that reported him, yea she did!
[/quote]
No she didn't. The actions of Alrik was never reported to Meredith. Ser Bardel tried, but was prevented every time by Alrik.
[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
[quote]I don't think that the Templar archieves was accesible to all mages. But since Orsino was First Enchanter he may have had acces, or he may have stolen it. I was just airing another possible way for Orsino to have obtained the research.[/quote]I just don't buy it.[/quote]
You don't have to.
The Band of Three and Gaider's New Interview: A Contradiction
Débuté par
Blacklash93
, févr. 14 2012 08:47
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#102
Posté 17 février 2012 - 02:14
Xilizhra
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So far, we've only seen the idol affect one person at a time, but that effect is quite strong. I believe it's sentient and calls out to one person at a time to do its bidding, whatever that might be.Hawke, a human, literally picks the idol up, holds it in his hands while it does its falshy thing, then hands it to Varric. No ill effect. I'm basing my statement on that.
Which is rather like killing all nobles for the crimes of an Antivan noble assassin.I was talking more about mages on a global level. But even in the case you make, she only wanted the annulment when the amges had proven that they were too unruly to contain the situation anymore.
Varric suffered no ill effects at all upon first seeing it, whereas Bartrand was immediately possessed by greed. Then, in Family Matter, despite there being a shard of it left in the house somewhere, Varric also suffered no ill effects. It was only in Haunted, when the idol was calling to him specifically, that he began to succumb.We have seen very much to indicate that. The mere fact that its proximity makes Dwarves go mad, while humans doesn't go bonkers, immediately anyway, for instance.
#103
Posté 18 février 2012 - 01:07
TEWR
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EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Cullen flat out states that the events in DA:O are the reason he has a hard time trusting mages...
Having a hard time trusting them is fine, given what he survived.
But he doesn't let it dictate how he does his job. He doesn't accuse all mages of being blood mages or evil, simply because of what he's endured, y'know?
He's even willing to stand up to Meredith when she called for an unjust Annulment, saying that he would gladly bear any blame if any of them that he spared did turn out to be maleficarum, citing the reason as that's what being a Templar entails.
IMO, he should've also taken issue with Meredith's Annulment when she called for it. Unless he wasn't there when she called for it, in which case never mind.
I never really got the sense that Cullen was starting to see the Templars could be -- and for Kirkwall were -- just as bad as some of the mages. I mean, sure he says he's starting to feel the line is getting blurred and he can't tell if he's simply serving Meredith or the Templar Order, but I just feel that the limited interaction with him is the problem. I just think more interaction should've been present so we see how he's seeing the best and worst of both sides and knowing where he needs to be.
Anyway, there is no evidence of Meredith being psychologically unstable until after she recieves her sword. And even then her "paranoia" is actually justified since there was a conspicracy against her.
Considering Thrask says in Act 1 that her measures have become far less mage-friendly and things were different prior to her becoming Knight-Commander, Tobrius saying that things were different many years back prior to Meredith being Knight-Commander, and Alain says that the Kirkwall Circle is worse then Starkhaven ever was, I think that's proof of her instability.
Hawke, a human, literally picks the idol up, holds it in his hands while it does its falshy thing, then hands it to Varric. No ill effect. I'm basing my statement on that.
Hawke only holds it in his hand for two seconds. Plus, as I said he's the PC. He can't be affected by virtue of being the PC. Likewise, Varric only holds it in his hands for two seconds before tossing it to Bartrand.
Bartrand however had longer contact with it and fell under its influence immediately. IIRC, one of his servants said that he changed after returning from the Deep Roads. Like, right after.
Additionally, the idol was broken by Bartrand in Act 2 and sold to Meredith in Act 2. Seeing as how Anders says that it's far more potent broken then intact, and Bartrand sold it to her, I think it's clear that she fell under its influence immediately.
1)Bartrand made a deal with Meredith somehow, possibly by letter.
2) Bartrand broke it, keeping a shard for himself
3) Bartrand sold it to Meredith.
4) Varric picks up the shard 3 years later. Immediately, he falls under its influence.
By simple logic, we know that Meredith fell under its influence. As I said, there is nothing to say that it affects Dwarves differently. You show me a human that isn't Hawke -- who is the PC and thus won't act erratic, especially when he only touches it for 2 seconds -- not falling under its influence immediately, and I might subscribe to that.
And Meredith doesn't count, because the only person to back up the claim of humans -- specifically Meredith -- not being affected by the ido is Meredith herself, when she's about to kill Hawke on either side.
We have seen very much to indicate that. The mere fact that its proximity makes Dwarves go mad, while humans doesn't go bonkers, immediately anyway, for instance.
No we haven't. Hawke is the PC. He doesn't count.
I was talking more about mages on a global level. But even in the case you make, she only wanted the annulment when the amges had proven that they were too unruly to contain the situation anymore.
The situation was fine. All the mages and decent Templars wanted was for Meredith to be removed from power -- both political and Templar -- and for the Circle to go back to the way it once was.
I do not see any situation that is out of control.
.
For a guy who loves to specualte, you are sure quick to state that Orsino had nothing to do with the rebellion.
Considering he didn't know about the rebellion and wishes he hadn't stuck his nose into it, yea I think he did have nothing to do with the rebellion.
I mean, he flat out says this stuff, so I have no clue what you're trying to prove here.
Anyway, she only accuses the Champion of that if the Champion accuses her of being mad. And since a large segment of her Templars had just been put under a blood mages' sway, I'd say her accusations weren't baseless.
Now who's speculating? Wrongly I might add. The Templars in the rebellion were doing that of their own volition, since Thrask was the one who started it to begin with and was the one making sure that the Templars weren't working for Meredith.
Also, if you go with diplomatic Hawke and tell her Orsino wasn't involved, she won't accuse Hawke of anything, but she will keep believing Orsino had a part in it. Again not entirely baseless, given that Orsino refused to aid her in rooting out the conspiracy.
you do realize that he couldn't have helped her even if he wanted, since he was confined to going no further then the courtyard by Meredith?
Champion Hawke,
It took great courage the other day for you to speak openly against our knight-commander. You have my support in any actions you take. I hope I have yours as well, for there is a situation in the Circle I was hoping you could assist me with. Please meet me at the Gallows. Meredith has confined my mages to their cells and forbade me from traveling further than the Courtyard. I appreciate your service and discretion.
Sincerely,
First Enchanter Orsino
The problem is that he can't go to the Templars because 95% of the Templars will abuse the mages. All mages. His position is entirely valid.
If you can excuse Meredith's paranoia, you can excuse Orsino's. And considering Meredith was willing to punish all the mages for the actions of an apostate, he's definitely right in his belief that all the mages would be made a target.
If Meredith will make all the mages a target for an act they had nothing to do with, one that was committed by an apostate, then she would surely punish them all for an act some of the mages were associated with.
I mean really, what's he going to do? Shout from the Gallows to Kirkwall proper telling Meredith where to go? He doesn't even know who's involved. Just that some mages have been disappearing for days at a time.
And he also admits that Meredith isn't entirely wrong, and that his mind has gone to the worst possible conclusion: blood magic was involved.
No she didn't. The actions of Alrik was never reported to Meredith. Ser Bardel tried, but was prevented every time by Alrik.
Ahem...
Ser Bardel,
I have told you a hundred times not to bother the knight-commander with your pathetic questions. She's a busy woman and has no time to nurse you through your crisis of conscience. You are under my command. If you take issues with my orders, you bring them to me, or I will see you stripped of your knighthood!
The mage Karl is dangerous and we must take steps to deal with him and any friends who are assisting his rebellion. I expect this done by next week. If I must see to it personally, I will also find out exactly why you failed to carry out your sacred duties.
The Maker has given us a divine task, Bardel. We cannot fail Him.
Ser Alrik
That very clearly states that the Knight-Commander was informed and that Ser Bardel was talking with her. And that Alrik hadn't been informed of Ser Bardel's issues with the orders. A wise move, really.
Nowhere does it state that Alrik "intercepted" Bardel, but it very clearly states that Meredith was informed.
#104
Posté 18 février 2012 - 04:34
Rifneno
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Breaking news! David Gaider not nominated for a Pulizter! Again!
The game wasn't fuzzy on this. Kirkwall was built for a purpose and it involved immense blood magic. They specifically say that there was no apparent reason for Tevinter to have set up Kirkwall where it was, that the original designs of the city were made into magical glyphs, there were massive... "sewers" built for blood, and whatever Tevinter was doing they kept pretty much top secret. Yes, this is a direct contradiction.
The game wasn't fuzzy on this. Kirkwall was built for a purpose and it involved immense blood magic. They specifically say that there was no apparent reason for Tevinter to have set up Kirkwall where it was, that the original designs of the city were made into magical glyphs, there were massive... "sewers" built for blood, and whatever Tevinter was doing they kept pretty much top secret. Yes, this is a direct contradiction.
#105
Posté 18 février 2012 - 07:25
EmperorSahlertz
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[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
[quote]
Anyway, there is no evidence of Meredith being psychologically unstable until after she recieves her sword. And even then her "paranoia" is actually justified since there was a conspicracy against her.[/quote]
Considering Thrask says in Act 1 that her measures have become far less mage-friendly and things were different prior to her becoming Knight-Commander, Tobrius saying that things were different many years back prior to Meredith being Knight-Commander, and Alain says that the Kirkwall Circle is worse then Starkhaven ever was, I think that's proof of her instability.[/quote]
That she was cracking down ahrder on an increasingly rebellious Circle is not signs of mental instability....
[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
[quote]
Hawke, a human, literally picks the idol up, holds it in his hands while it does its falshy thing, then hands it to Varric. No ill effect. I'm basing my statement on that.[/quote]
Hawke only holds it in his hand for two seconds. Plus, as I said he's the PC. He can't be affected by virtue of being the PC. Likewise, Varric only holds it in his hands for two seconds before tossing it to Bartrand.
Bartrand however had longer contact with it and fell under its influence immediately. IIRC, one of his servants said that he changed after returning from the Deep Roads. Like, right after.
Additionally, the idol was broken by Bartrand in Act 2 and sold to Meredith in Act 2. Seeing as how Anders says that it's far more potent broken then intact, and Bartrand sold it to her, I think it's clear that she fell under its influence immediately.
1)Bartrand made a deal with Meredith somehow, possibly by letter.
2) Bartrand broke it, keeping a shard for himself
3) Bartrand sold it to Meredith.
4) Varric picks up the shard 3 years later. Immediately, he falls under its influence.
By simple logic, we know that Meredith fell under its influence. As I said, there is nothing to say that it affects Dwarves differently. You show me a human that isn't Hawke -- who is the PC and thus won't act erratic, especially when he only touches it for 2 seconds -- not falling under its influence immediately, and I might subscribe to that.
And Meredith doesn't count, because the only person to back up the claim of humans -- specifically Meredith -- not being affected by the ido is Meredith herself, when she's about to kill Hawke on either side.
[quote]We have seen very much to indicate that. The mere fact that its proximity makes Dwarves go mad, while humans doesn't go bonkers, immediately anyway, for instance.[/quote]
No we haven't. Hawke is the PC. He doesn't count.
[/quote]
So let me get this straight.... In this thread you claim that all are affected the same way by the idol, except Hawke (yet all other kinds of mind control works on him, to a limited extend of course). But in another thread, you claim it affects Dwarves differently, because it supports your Darkspawn origin theory? Consistency, please.
[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
[quote]
I was talking more about mages on a global level. But even in the case you make, she only wanted the annulment when the amges had proven that they were too unruly to contain the situation anymore.[/quote]
The situation was fine. All the mages and decent Templars wanted was for Meredith to be removed from power -- both political and Templar -- and for the Circle to go back to the way it once was.
I do not see any situation that is out of control.
[/quote]
Circle Mages working with Apostates to smuggle themselves out of the Circle is not a "situation out of control" to you? An entire "Mage Underground" in Krikwall, is not a "situation out of control" to you? Maleficars and demons plaguing the streets and countryside, is not a "situation out of control" to you?
There are only so many Templars, and they can't handle all the situations at once. The crackdown on the Circle was simply to prevent their numerous escape attempts. If the Mages wanted things as they used to be, then perhaps they should stop breaking every single law within the Circle, and thus forcing Meredith to loosen up, or give up power.
[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
[quote].
For a guy who loves to specualte, you are sure quick to state that Orsino had nothing to do with the rebellion.[/quote]
Considering he didn't know about the rebellion and wishes he hadn't stuck his nose into it, yea I think he did have nothing to do with the rebellion.
I mean, he flat out says this stuff, so I have no clue what you're trying to prove here.
[/quote]
So now we are going to believe every word of Orsino? Just because, or for an actual reason beyond him being a mage and thus infalible? And if we are going to believe him, then why aren't we believing him, when he claims to have refrained from reporting Quentin?
[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
[quote]
Anyway, she only accuses the Champion of that if the Champion accuses her of being mad. And since a large segment of her Templars had just been put under a blood mages' sway, I'd say her accusations weren't baseless.[/quote]
Now who's speculating? Wrongly I might add. The Templars in the rebellion were doing that of their own volition, since Thrask was the one who started it to begin with and was the one making sure that the Templars weren't working for Meredith.
[/quote]
Yeah.... I'm sure all the Templars who followed Thrask, was actually fighting Hawke out of their own will, right after Grace killed the Templar who had convinced them of rebelling. Sure.....
[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
[quote]
Also, if you go with diplomatic Hawke and tell her Orsino wasn't involved, she won't accuse Hawke of anything, but she will keep believing Orsino had a part in it. Again not entirely baseless, given that Orsino refused to aid her in rooting out the conspiracy.[/quote]
you do realize that he couldn't have helped her even if he wanted, since he was confined to going no further then the courtyard by Meredith?
Champion Hawke,
It took great courage the other day for you to speak openly against our knight-commander. You have my support in any actions you take. I hope I have yours as well, for there is a situation in the Circle I was hoping you could assist me with. Please meet me at the Gallows. Meredith has confined my mages to their cells and forbade me from traveling further than the Courtyard. I appreciate your service and discretion.
Sincerely,
First Enchanter Orsino
The problem is that he can't go to the Templars because 95% of the Templars will abuse the mages. All mages. His position is entirely valid.
If you can excuse Meredith's paranoia, you can excuse Orsino's. And considering Meredith was willing to punish all the mages for the actions of an apostate, he's definitely right in his belief that all the mages would be made a target.
If Meredith will make all the mages a target for an act they had nothing to do with, one that was committed by an apostate, then she would surely punish them all for an act some of the mages were associated with.
I mean really, what's he going to do? Shout from the Gallows to Kirkwall proper telling Meredith where to go? He doesn't even know who's involved. Just that some mages have been disappearing for days at a time.
And he also admits that Meredith isn't entirely wrong, and that his mind has gone to the worst possible conclusion: blood magic was involved.
[/quote]
And you do realize taht the rebellion had been going on for a whole lot longer than from when Orsino was restricted to the Gallows... Right? Orsino had on numerous occasions refused to work with Meredith. He was proving irrationally unwilling to cooperate, leaving Meredith little choice but to restrict him, since he must've been a possible suspect in the rebellion case.
[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
[quote]
No she didn't. The actions of Alrik was never reported to Meredith. Ser Bardel tried, but was prevented every time by Alrik.[/quote]
Ahem...
Ser Bardel,
I have told you a hundred times not to bother the knight-commander with your pathetic questions. She's a busy woman and has no time to nurse you through your crisis of conscience. You are under my command. If you take issues with my orders, you bring them to me, or I will see you stripped of your knighthood!
The mage Karl is dangerous and we must take steps to deal with him and any friends who are assisting his rebellion. I expect this done by next week. If I must see to it personally, I will also find out exactly why you failed to carry out your sacred duties.
The Maker has given us a divine task, Bardel. We cannot fail Him.
Ser Alrik
That very clearly states that the Knight-Commander was informed and that Ser Bardel was talking with her. And that Alrik hadn't been informed of Ser Bardel's issues with the orders. A wise move, really.
Nowhere does it state that Alrik "intercepted" Bardel, but it very clearly states that Meredith was informed.[/quote]
The only thing that letter clearly states is that this bardel was starting to ask questions, questions Alrik didn't want Meredith to hear. So he ordered him to remain silent and fall in line. In case you didn't notice, Alrik is the author of the letter, and the letter itself represents the prevention of Meredith hearing about what was going on. If Meredith actually did approve of Alrik's methods, then why would Alrik fear of Meredith finding out? Why would Meredith reject the Tranquil Solution? She wouldn't, which is why it is celar that she didn't approve of Alrik.
[quote]
Anyway, there is no evidence of Meredith being psychologically unstable until after she recieves her sword. And even then her "paranoia" is actually justified since there was a conspicracy against her.[/quote]
Considering Thrask says in Act 1 that her measures have become far less mage-friendly and things were different prior to her becoming Knight-Commander, Tobrius saying that things were different many years back prior to Meredith being Knight-Commander, and Alain says that the Kirkwall Circle is worse then Starkhaven ever was, I think that's proof of her instability.[/quote]
That she was cracking down ahrder on an increasingly rebellious Circle is not signs of mental instability....
[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
[quote]
Hawke, a human, literally picks the idol up, holds it in his hands while it does its falshy thing, then hands it to Varric. No ill effect. I'm basing my statement on that.[/quote]
Hawke only holds it in his hand for two seconds. Plus, as I said he's the PC. He can't be affected by virtue of being the PC. Likewise, Varric only holds it in his hands for two seconds before tossing it to Bartrand.
Bartrand however had longer contact with it and fell under its influence immediately. IIRC, one of his servants said that he changed after returning from the Deep Roads. Like, right after.
Additionally, the idol was broken by Bartrand in Act 2 and sold to Meredith in Act 2. Seeing as how Anders says that it's far more potent broken then intact, and Bartrand sold it to her, I think it's clear that she fell under its influence immediately.
1)Bartrand made a deal with Meredith somehow, possibly by letter.
2) Bartrand broke it, keeping a shard for himself
3) Bartrand sold it to Meredith.
4) Varric picks up the shard 3 years later. Immediately, he falls under its influence.
By simple logic, we know that Meredith fell under its influence. As I said, there is nothing to say that it affects Dwarves differently. You show me a human that isn't Hawke -- who is the PC and thus won't act erratic, especially when he only touches it for 2 seconds -- not falling under its influence immediately, and I might subscribe to that.
And Meredith doesn't count, because the only person to back up the claim of humans -- specifically Meredith -- not being affected by the ido is Meredith herself, when she's about to kill Hawke on either side.
[quote]We have seen very much to indicate that. The mere fact that its proximity makes Dwarves go mad, while humans doesn't go bonkers, immediately anyway, for instance.[/quote]
No we haven't. Hawke is the PC. He doesn't count.
[/quote]
So let me get this straight.... In this thread you claim that all are affected the same way by the idol, except Hawke (yet all other kinds of mind control works on him, to a limited extend of course). But in another thread, you claim it affects Dwarves differently, because it supports your Darkspawn origin theory? Consistency, please.
[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
[quote]
I was talking more about mages on a global level. But even in the case you make, she only wanted the annulment when the amges had proven that they were too unruly to contain the situation anymore.[/quote]
The situation was fine. All the mages and decent Templars wanted was for Meredith to be removed from power -- both political and Templar -- and for the Circle to go back to the way it once was.
I do not see any situation that is out of control.
[/quote]
Circle Mages working with Apostates to smuggle themselves out of the Circle is not a "situation out of control" to you? An entire "Mage Underground" in Krikwall, is not a "situation out of control" to you? Maleficars and demons plaguing the streets and countryside, is not a "situation out of control" to you?
There are only so many Templars, and they can't handle all the situations at once. The crackdown on the Circle was simply to prevent their numerous escape attempts. If the Mages wanted things as they used to be, then perhaps they should stop breaking every single law within the Circle, and thus forcing Meredith to loosen up, or give up power.
[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
[quote].
For a guy who loves to specualte, you are sure quick to state that Orsino had nothing to do with the rebellion.[/quote]
Considering he didn't know about the rebellion and wishes he hadn't stuck his nose into it, yea I think he did have nothing to do with the rebellion.
I mean, he flat out says this stuff, so I have no clue what you're trying to prove here.
[/quote]
So now we are going to believe every word of Orsino? Just because, or for an actual reason beyond him being a mage and thus infalible? And if we are going to believe him, then why aren't we believing him, when he claims to have refrained from reporting Quentin?
[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
[quote]
Anyway, she only accuses the Champion of that if the Champion accuses her of being mad. And since a large segment of her Templars had just been put under a blood mages' sway, I'd say her accusations weren't baseless.[/quote]
Now who's speculating? Wrongly I might add. The Templars in the rebellion were doing that of their own volition, since Thrask was the one who started it to begin with and was the one making sure that the Templars weren't working for Meredith.
[/quote]
Yeah.... I'm sure all the Templars who followed Thrask, was actually fighting Hawke out of their own will, right after Grace killed the Templar who had convinced them of rebelling. Sure.....
[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
[quote]
Also, if you go with diplomatic Hawke and tell her Orsino wasn't involved, she won't accuse Hawke of anything, but she will keep believing Orsino had a part in it. Again not entirely baseless, given that Orsino refused to aid her in rooting out the conspiracy.[/quote]
you do realize that he couldn't have helped her even if he wanted, since he was confined to going no further then the courtyard by Meredith?
Champion Hawke,
It took great courage the other day for you to speak openly against our knight-commander. You have my support in any actions you take. I hope I have yours as well, for there is a situation in the Circle I was hoping you could assist me with. Please meet me at the Gallows. Meredith has confined my mages to their cells and forbade me from traveling further than the Courtyard. I appreciate your service and discretion.
Sincerely,
First Enchanter Orsino
The problem is that he can't go to the Templars because 95% of the Templars will abuse the mages. All mages. His position is entirely valid.
If you can excuse Meredith's paranoia, you can excuse Orsino's. And considering Meredith was willing to punish all the mages for the actions of an apostate, he's definitely right in his belief that all the mages would be made a target.
If Meredith will make all the mages a target for an act they had nothing to do with, one that was committed by an apostate, then she would surely punish them all for an act some of the mages were associated with.
I mean really, what's he going to do? Shout from the Gallows to Kirkwall proper telling Meredith where to go? He doesn't even know who's involved. Just that some mages have been disappearing for days at a time.
And he also admits that Meredith isn't entirely wrong, and that his mind has gone to the worst possible conclusion: blood magic was involved.
[/quote]
And you do realize taht the rebellion had been going on for a whole lot longer than from when Orsino was restricted to the Gallows... Right? Orsino had on numerous occasions refused to work with Meredith. He was proving irrationally unwilling to cooperate, leaving Meredith little choice but to restrict him, since he must've been a possible suspect in the rebellion case.
[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
[quote]
No she didn't. The actions of Alrik was never reported to Meredith. Ser Bardel tried, but was prevented every time by Alrik.[/quote]
Ahem...
Ser Bardel,
I have told you a hundred times not to bother the knight-commander with your pathetic questions. She's a busy woman and has no time to nurse you through your crisis of conscience. You are under my command. If you take issues with my orders, you bring them to me, or I will see you stripped of your knighthood!
The mage Karl is dangerous and we must take steps to deal with him and any friends who are assisting his rebellion. I expect this done by next week. If I must see to it personally, I will also find out exactly why you failed to carry out your sacred duties.
The Maker has given us a divine task, Bardel. We cannot fail Him.
Ser Alrik
That very clearly states that the Knight-Commander was informed and that Ser Bardel was talking with her. And that Alrik hadn't been informed of Ser Bardel's issues with the orders. A wise move, really.
Nowhere does it state that Alrik "intercepted" Bardel, but it very clearly states that Meredith was informed.[/quote]
The only thing that letter clearly states is that this bardel was starting to ask questions, questions Alrik didn't want Meredith to hear. So he ordered him to remain silent and fall in line. In case you didn't notice, Alrik is the author of the letter, and the letter itself represents the prevention of Meredith hearing about what was going on. If Meredith actually did approve of Alrik's methods, then why would Alrik fear of Meredith finding out? Why would Meredith reject the Tranquil Solution? She wouldn't, which is why it is celar that she didn't approve of Alrik.
#106
Posté 18 février 2012 - 09:38
TEWR
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[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...
That she was cracking down ahrder on an increasingly rebellious Circle is not signs of mental instability....[/quote]
Considering it was her heavy-handed tactics that led to the Circle becoming more rebellious -- rightfully so I might add -- yes it is.
She caused the tension to start, and then she used that tension as an excuse to justify creating more tension. That is the sign of a mentally unstable person.
We know that Meredith became Knight-Commander in 9:23 Dragon, and that Orsino became First Enchanter in 9:26 Dragon.
That's a 3 year interim, and the rebellious nature only started in 9:29 Dragon. You can read from Orsino's codex that five years prior he has had confrontations with the Knight-Commander. That means that her measures constantly became even less mage-friendly over the ensuing years, and the mages had enough of it.
Face it, she was always a wackjob.
[quote]
So let me get this straight.... In this thread you claim that all are affected the same way by the idol, except Hawke (yet all other kinds of mind control works on him, to a limited extend of course). But in another thread, you claim it affects Dwarves differently, because it supports your Darkspawn origin theory? Consistency, please.[/quote]
Wrong wrong wrong wrong
I have claimed that after the idol is broken, everyone is affected the same way by the idol. In that they immediately fall under its influence. But, by virtue of being the PC, Hawke can not be used as an example of it disproving my notion because he is the only one to back up your counterargument. You show me one human or elf that touches the broken idol and doesn't fall under its influence immediately that isn't Hawke or Meredith -- y'know, since Meredith claims she won't fall to the idol like Bartrand did when she's about to kill Hawke on either side -- and I will take back my notion that it affects everyone the same way after it's broken.
I also never once stated that it affected Dwarves differently. That was YOU who stated that. I stated that the red lyrium, the idol, and the Primeval Thaig and the Dwarves that inhabited it are linked to the Darkspawn's emergence. I never claimed how, nor did I state that Dwarves were affected by it differently then other races. That was all you.
[quote]
Circle Mages working with Apostates to smuggle themselves out of the Circle is not a "situation out of control" to you? An entire "Mage Underground" in Krikwall, is not a "situation out of control" to you?[/quote]
When the alternatives are rape, torture, murder, and Tranquility; yes.
[quote]
Maleficars and demons plaguing the streets and countryside, is not a "situation out of control" to you?[/quote]
Maybe if the Templars did their damn jobs instead of trying to save face with the nobility and abusing the mages inside the Circle they might have actually accomplished something.
95% of the Templars don't care about doing their job, while the remaining 5% that are actually what a Templar should be get either chastised for doing their job or killed for it. The evil Templars were more interested in making the Circle Mages go "bad" so they could kill them then actually trying to protect the city from apostates, maleficarum, and demons.
When Emeric is investigating the murders, he's told to drop the investigation by Meredith simply because she doesn't want to implicate a noble.
Yet Gascard knew two of the victims. That could've just been a coincidence for all he knew, but it's one worth heavily investigating.
When Thrask wants to bring the mages in alive, Kerras basically threatened him
Who arrested Fell Ordon? The City Guard.
Who killed Fell Ordon? Hawke and the City Guard.
Who cleans up Kirkwall's streets? The Guard Captain and Hawke.
Who unearthed the fact that demons were behind a conspiracy against the Vael family? Sebastian Vael, Hawke, and the Guard Captain.
Who took down Tarohne and Quentin? Hawke and the Guard Captain.
you show me one instance of Templars actually doing their job -- and I mean those among the 95%. The **** Templars and not the ones in the 5% like Keran, Thrask, Cullen, and Emeric -- and we can start assuming that the Templars were trying to keep the situation under control.
But since the majority of the mage-related problems had little to no involvement from the Templars, I'm going to keep assuming that they are the real problem. They are supposed to protect the populus from bloodthirsty maleficarum, demons, and abominations yet they were not interested in doing so.
[quote]
There are only so many Templars, and they can't handle all the situations at once. The crackdown on the Circle was simply to prevent their numerous escape attempts. If the Mages wanted things as they used to be, then perhaps they should stop breaking every single law within the Circle, and thus forcing Meredith to loosen up, or give up power.[/quote]
That's a friggin' pipe dream and you know it. Whether you will admit it is something I highly doubt though.
When will it stop? They could be the best mages in the Circle, but Meredith wouldn't care. Especially not after she acquired the broken idol and fell under its influence immediately, seeing evil everywhere she looked.
The first problem Meredith needed to deal with was reign in her Templars. Their abuse of their power -- which is greatly akin to the abuse that cops in our world do. -- is what is causing the mages to want to escape.
The next thing she needs to do is stop with her heavy-handed tactics. It's one thing to be vigilant. It's another entirely to beat a mage until he ends up using blood magic, just so you can claim "I was right! He was a blood mage!".
The Circle is supposed to be a place of learning. Not a torture camp/prison camp.
Ultimately, the Circle system as it stands is just a gilded cage for the mages, but it should attempt to make the Circles as much of a mage-friendly place as possible without being too lenient.
And Kirkwall was not what a Circle should be. You excuse and justify Meredith's methods when even the Grand Cleric herself didn't excuse, justify, nor want to allow them.
Granted, I don't think she did enough to help the situation but that she didn't like Meredith's methods is one of the few points I can give her.
[quote]So now we are going to believe every word of Orsino? Just because, or for an actual reason beyond him being a mage and thus infalible?[/quote]
Because I think if he knew what the hell was going on, he wouldn't have enlisted the aid of Hawke to find out what was going on. If he knew, he would've let it continue.
And considering the fact that everyone -- including Thrask himself -- calls Thrask the mastermind of the whole thing, I think it's safe to say that Orsino had absolutely nothing to do with the rebellion.
Common sense, man.
[quote]
And if we are going to believe him, then why aren't we believing him, when he claims to have refrained from reporting Quentin?[/quote]
Because I never said I didn't believe he didn't report Quentin?
Let me bold this. You seem to be twisting my words to suit your little argument, and it's failing spectaculously.
I said that Orsino may have been using his own means to take down Quentin. That does not mean he reported him to the Templars. I never once said that. Contrary to your belief, it is possible he had connections in the City among the citizenry.
Maybe he hired Meeran's group. Maybe he had some friends in the City Guard but asked them not to report it to the Templars. Maybe he talked with connections in the City Guard -- if he had any -- and they told him what they knew, but Hawke beat him to Quentin before he could take any real action against him.
Maybe he just read some Templar reports when they actually bothered to investigate the matter.
Who knows. But nowhere did I state that I thought he went to the Templars. I said I believed him when he said he couldn't report Quentin to them.
[quote]
Yeah.... I'm sure all the Templars who followed Thrask, was actually fighting Hawke out of their own will, right after Grace killed the Templar who had convinced them of rebelling. Sure.....[/quote]
It's plot stupidity, not mind control
"We know you're spying for Orsino!"
You have nothing to back up that speculation other than your own intimations. you want to believe that, fine. But don't claim it as fact.
And before you say it, I have done nothing of the sort. I have been very careful to say "Maybe this is what's happened." or Perhaps this is what he/she did" or "it's possible this is the case".
you on the other hand flat out stated that they were under mind control, with no evidence that was the case. You don't know if Grace can control minds, if she even did control minds, or whatever else.
It's likely that is the case. I'll grant you that much. But you were not only speculating, but asserting that it was fact with nothing to back it up.
[quote]And you do realize taht the rebellion had been going on for a whole lot longer than from when Orsino was restricted to the Gallows... Right? Orsino had on numerous occasions refused to work with Meredith. He was proving irrationally unwilling to cooperate, leaving Meredith little choice but to restrict him, since he must've been a possible suspect in the rebellion case.[/quote]
How do you expect him to cooperate? He doesn't even know where some of the mages are going. What's he supposed to do, mind control everyone with blood magic so he can find out their plans?
Yea, that'll certainly go over well!
At best, if he did have connections on the outside he could use them to find out where the mages are going. But by the time he would find out, chances are said mages would already be long gone.
I think he was doing plenty. While mages had been escaping the Circle, he was pleading and fighting for the mages that remained in the Circle to not be treated so harshly. If Meredith had let up, less mages would've escaped.
He couldn't do that much for those that were already gone aside from hoping they survived. But he could try and change the Circle for the better so that less mages would run away.
For all of your comments about "the mages should've been good little boys and girls", you have failed to take into account one thing: Suspicion. If the mages were to suddenly start behaving, the Templars would not trust the Mages and would think they were plotting something.
To which they would then repeat the cycle of violence by abusing the Mages to find out what they were up to, when really they were just trying to behave.
But no, the Templars of Kirkwall are such rational people! That's why the Chantry focuses on people with a good moral compass and considers faith a secondary concern!
Oh wait...
[quote]
The only thing that letter clearly states is that this bardel was starting to ask questions, questions Alrik didn't want Meredith to hear. So he ordered him to remain silent and fall in line. In case you didn't notice, Alrik is the author of the letter,[/quote]
It's irrelevant who wrote the letter. It's what the letter says that's important
[quote]If Meredith actually did approve of Alrik's methods, then why would Alrik fear of Meredith finding out?[/quote]
Because he's not psychic and doesn't know what Meredith thinks? Because he doesn't want her to know that he's doing this so he can have his own personal harem of emotionless, malleable sex slaves?
[quote]
Why would Meredith reject the Tranquil Solution? She wouldn't, which is why it is celar that she didn't approve of Alrik.
[/quote]
The Tranquil Solution and what Alrik was doing are different enough.
Alrik's proposal was that every mage be made Tranquil at the same time.
What he was doing was Tranquiling the mages every few at a time.
The former is a lot harder to justify to the Grand Cleric, while the latter can be justified easily for the Templars by making up some bull**** excuse.
Meredith may have rejected the idea not because she didn't like it but because it would be nigh impossible to justify its usage to the authorities.
But since Bardel told her of what Alrik was doing, and she did nothing to stop it, it's very clear that she approved of the Rite of Tranquility being used sparingly and illegally rather then the widespread and simultaneous usage of it.
That she was cracking down ahrder on an increasingly rebellious Circle is not signs of mental instability....[/quote]
Considering it was her heavy-handed tactics that led to the Circle becoming more rebellious -- rightfully so I might add -- yes it is.
She caused the tension to start, and then she used that tension as an excuse to justify creating more tension. That is the sign of a mentally unstable person.
We know that Meredith became Knight-Commander in 9:23 Dragon, and that Orsino became First Enchanter in 9:26 Dragon.
That's a 3 year interim, and the rebellious nature only started in 9:29 Dragon. You can read from Orsino's codex that five years prior he has had confrontations with the Knight-Commander. That means that her measures constantly became even less mage-friendly over the ensuing years, and the mages had enough of it.
Face it, she was always a wackjob.
[quote]
So let me get this straight.... In this thread you claim that all are affected the same way by the idol, except Hawke (yet all other kinds of mind control works on him, to a limited extend of course). But in another thread, you claim it affects Dwarves differently, because it supports your Darkspawn origin theory? Consistency, please.[/quote]
Wrong wrong wrong wrong
I have claimed that after the idol is broken, everyone is affected the same way by the idol. In that they immediately fall under its influence. But, by virtue of being the PC, Hawke can not be used as an example of it disproving my notion because he is the only one to back up your counterargument. You show me one human or elf that touches the broken idol and doesn't fall under its influence immediately that isn't Hawke or Meredith -- y'know, since Meredith claims she won't fall to the idol like Bartrand did when she's about to kill Hawke on either side -- and I will take back my notion that it affects everyone the same way after it's broken.
I also never once stated that it affected Dwarves differently. That was YOU who stated that. I stated that the red lyrium, the idol, and the Primeval Thaig and the Dwarves that inhabited it are linked to the Darkspawn's emergence. I never claimed how, nor did I state that Dwarves were affected by it differently then other races. That was all you.
[quote]
Circle Mages working with Apostates to smuggle themselves out of the Circle is not a "situation out of control" to you? An entire "Mage Underground" in Krikwall, is not a "situation out of control" to you?[/quote]
When the alternatives are rape, torture, murder, and Tranquility; yes.
[quote]
Maleficars and demons plaguing the streets and countryside, is not a "situation out of control" to you?[/quote]
Maybe if the Templars did their damn jobs instead of trying to save face with the nobility and abusing the mages inside the Circle they might have actually accomplished something.
95% of the Templars don't care about doing their job, while the remaining 5% that are actually what a Templar should be get either chastised for doing their job or killed for it. The evil Templars were more interested in making the Circle Mages go "bad" so they could kill them then actually trying to protect the city from apostates, maleficarum, and demons.
When Emeric is investigating the murders, he's told to drop the investigation by Meredith simply because she doesn't want to implicate a noble.
Yet Gascard knew two of the victims. That could've just been a coincidence for all he knew, but it's one worth heavily investigating.
When Thrask wants to bring the mages in alive, Kerras basically threatened him
Who arrested Fell Ordon? The City Guard.
Who killed Fell Ordon? Hawke and the City Guard.
Who cleans up Kirkwall's streets? The Guard Captain and Hawke.
Who unearthed the fact that demons were behind a conspiracy against the Vael family? Sebastian Vael, Hawke, and the Guard Captain.
Who took down Tarohne and Quentin? Hawke and the Guard Captain.
you show me one instance of Templars actually doing their job -- and I mean those among the 95%. The **** Templars and not the ones in the 5% like Keran, Thrask, Cullen, and Emeric -- and we can start assuming that the Templars were trying to keep the situation under control.
But since the majority of the mage-related problems had little to no involvement from the Templars, I'm going to keep assuming that they are the real problem. They are supposed to protect the populus from bloodthirsty maleficarum, demons, and abominations yet they were not interested in doing so.
[quote]
There are only so many Templars, and they can't handle all the situations at once. The crackdown on the Circle was simply to prevent their numerous escape attempts. If the Mages wanted things as they used to be, then perhaps they should stop breaking every single law within the Circle, and thus forcing Meredith to loosen up, or give up power.[/quote]
That's a friggin' pipe dream and you know it. Whether you will admit it is something I highly doubt though.
When will it stop? They could be the best mages in the Circle, but Meredith wouldn't care. Especially not after she acquired the broken idol and fell under its influence immediately, seeing evil everywhere she looked.
The first problem Meredith needed to deal with was reign in her Templars. Their abuse of their power -- which is greatly akin to the abuse that cops in our world do. -- is what is causing the mages to want to escape.
The next thing she needs to do is stop with her heavy-handed tactics. It's one thing to be vigilant. It's another entirely to beat a mage until he ends up using blood magic, just so you can claim "I was right! He was a blood mage!".
The Circle is supposed to be a place of learning. Not a torture camp/prison camp.
Ultimately, the Circle system as it stands is just a gilded cage for the mages, but it should attempt to make the Circles as much of a mage-friendly place as possible without being too lenient.
And Kirkwall was not what a Circle should be. You excuse and justify Meredith's methods when even the Grand Cleric herself didn't excuse, justify, nor want to allow them.
Granted, I don't think she did enough to help the situation but that she didn't like Meredith's methods is one of the few points I can give her.
[quote]So now we are going to believe every word of Orsino? Just because, or for an actual reason beyond him being a mage and thus infalible?[/quote]
Because I think if he knew what the hell was going on, he wouldn't have enlisted the aid of Hawke to find out what was going on. If he knew, he would've let it continue.
And considering the fact that everyone -- including Thrask himself -- calls Thrask the mastermind of the whole thing, I think it's safe to say that Orsino had absolutely nothing to do with the rebellion.
Common sense, man.
[quote]
And if we are going to believe him, then why aren't we believing him, when he claims to have refrained from reporting Quentin?[/quote]
Because I never said I didn't believe he didn't report Quentin?
Let me bold this. You seem to be twisting my words to suit your little argument, and it's failing spectaculously.
I said that Orsino may have been using his own means to take down Quentin. That does not mean he reported him to the Templars. I never once said that. Contrary to your belief, it is possible he had connections in the City among the citizenry.
Maybe he hired Meeran's group. Maybe he had some friends in the City Guard but asked them not to report it to the Templars. Maybe he talked with connections in the City Guard -- if he had any -- and they told him what they knew, but Hawke beat him to Quentin before he could take any real action against him.
Maybe he just read some Templar reports when they actually bothered to investigate the matter.
Who knows. But nowhere did I state that I thought he went to the Templars. I said I believed him when he said he couldn't report Quentin to them.
[quote]
Yeah.... I'm sure all the Templars who followed Thrask, was actually fighting Hawke out of their own will, right after Grace killed the Templar who had convinced them of rebelling. Sure.....[/quote]
It's plot stupidity, not mind control
"We know you're spying for Orsino!"
You have nothing to back up that speculation other than your own intimations. you want to believe that, fine. But don't claim it as fact.
And before you say it, I have done nothing of the sort. I have been very careful to say "Maybe this is what's happened." or Perhaps this is what he/she did" or "it's possible this is the case".
you on the other hand flat out stated that they were under mind control, with no evidence that was the case. You don't know if Grace can control minds, if she even did control minds, or whatever else.
It's likely that is the case. I'll grant you that much. But you were not only speculating, but asserting that it was fact with nothing to back it up.
[quote]And you do realize taht the rebellion had been going on for a whole lot longer than from when Orsino was restricted to the Gallows... Right? Orsino had on numerous occasions refused to work with Meredith. He was proving irrationally unwilling to cooperate, leaving Meredith little choice but to restrict him, since he must've been a possible suspect in the rebellion case.[/quote]
How do you expect him to cooperate? He doesn't even know where some of the mages are going. What's he supposed to do, mind control everyone with blood magic so he can find out their plans?
Yea, that'll certainly go over well!
At best, if he did have connections on the outside he could use them to find out where the mages are going. But by the time he would find out, chances are said mages would already be long gone.
I think he was doing plenty. While mages had been escaping the Circle, he was pleading and fighting for the mages that remained in the Circle to not be treated so harshly. If Meredith had let up, less mages would've escaped.
He couldn't do that much for those that were already gone aside from hoping they survived. But he could try and change the Circle for the better so that less mages would run away.
For all of your comments about "the mages should've been good little boys and girls", you have failed to take into account one thing: Suspicion. If the mages were to suddenly start behaving, the Templars would not trust the Mages and would think they were plotting something.
To which they would then repeat the cycle of violence by abusing the Mages to find out what they were up to, when really they were just trying to behave.
But no, the Templars of Kirkwall are such rational people! That's why the Chantry focuses on people with a good moral compass and considers faith a secondary concern!
Oh wait...
[quote]
The only thing that letter clearly states is that this bardel was starting to ask questions, questions Alrik didn't want Meredith to hear. So he ordered him to remain silent and fall in line. In case you didn't notice, Alrik is the author of the letter,[/quote]
It's irrelevant who wrote the letter. It's what the letter says that's important
[quote]If Meredith actually did approve of Alrik's methods, then why would Alrik fear of Meredith finding out?[/quote]
Because he's not psychic and doesn't know what Meredith thinks? Because he doesn't want her to know that he's doing this so he can have his own personal harem of emotionless, malleable sex slaves?
[quote]
Why would Meredith reject the Tranquil Solution? She wouldn't, which is why it is celar that she didn't approve of Alrik.
[/quote]
The Tranquil Solution and what Alrik was doing are different enough.
Alrik's proposal was that every mage be made Tranquil at the same time.
What he was doing was Tranquiling the mages every few at a time.
The former is a lot harder to justify to the Grand Cleric, while the latter can be justified easily for the Templars by making up some bull**** excuse.
Meredith may have rejected the idea not because she didn't like it but because it would be nigh impossible to justify its usage to the authorities.
But since Bardel told her of what Alrik was doing, and she did nothing to stop it, it's very clear that she approved of the Rite of Tranquility being used sparingly and illegally rather then the widespread and simultaneous usage of it.
Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 février 2012 - 10:01 .
#107
Posté 18 février 2012 - 10:08
TEWR
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Oh, and you do realize that for the Mages to want to obey the laws, the Templars need to first obey the laws as well?
You chastise the mages for breaking the laws when the Templars broke the laws first.
You chastise the mages for breaking the laws when the Templars broke the laws first.
#108
Posté 18 février 2012 - 11:25
EmperorSahlertz
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Proof. Now.The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Oh, and you do realize that for the Mages to want to obey the laws, the Templars need to first obey the laws as well?
You chastise the mages for breaking the laws when the Templars broke the laws first.
Oh, that is right. You got none. We don't know what started the whole situation in Kirkwall. We simply know that it is. We know things were different before Meredith, true, but that does not equate to Meredith having started the whole deal. It may even jsut have been Meredith who actually did something about the mage underground, which would mean the mages started it.
We. Don't. Know.
#109
Posté 24 février 2012 - 04:01
DarkAmaranth1966
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Well, given the Amell backstory of Revka (sp) having a mage child (the DAO Amell Warden if you play a human mage there) and that resulting in Meredith removing the Amells and placing Dumar on the Viscount's throne. Now Dumar turns out to be a inept leader and, Hawke (another Amell) ends up Champion who, without a viscount is now a serious contender for her hold over the city. (Remember the Hawke pictured is a mage and if he isn't, then his sister is and, he has apostates at his command)
Oh poor Meredith, she worked so hard to get rid of the Amells and put her puppet on the throne and, now an Amell is undoing all of it eiter as a mage or, at the least with a lot of help from mages.
Oh poor Meredith, she worked so hard to get rid of the Amells and put her puppet on the throne and, now an Amell is undoing all of it eiter as a mage or, at the least with a lot of help from mages.
