13 réponses à ce sujet

[JKoopman]

When I first walked into Ostagar and conned the guard to give me an audience with Loghain, I knew he was going to betray the king. Before he'd even said anything, it was like "Pasty-white black-haired guy wearing dark armor? Yep, he's evil."

I think it would've been more surprising if he'd turned out to be good and honorable.

[Lughsan35]

Well he was..only he was so completely paranoid he ****ed it all up...

[Oronduil]

He's not evil. To get a more in-depth look at Loghain, read "The Stolen Throne"

[gmale9000]

I'm still fairly unclear on his motivation. When the darkspawn sort of magically appear in that first tower dungeon, I figured that there *had* to be more to what was going with Loghain. But... there wasn't really. As it turns out... he's a dick? And he murders Cailen AND Duncan AND all the ****ing Grey Wardens... because he's a dick? And Cailen... was a ****? Apparently? And deserved to die? Because.... he was a ****?



I don't really get it.

[Lughsan35]

gmale9000 wrote...

I'm still fairly unclear on his motivation. When the darkspawn sort of magically appear in that first tower dungeon, I figured that there *had* to be more to what was going with Loghain. But... there wasn't really. As it turns out... he's a dick? And he murders Cailen AND Duncan AND all the ****ing Grey Wardens... because he's a dick? And Cailen... was a ****? Apparently? And deserved to die? Because.... he was a ****?

I don't really get it.

Daughter dearest was already ruling the kingdom... you know all those little torchlights you see from loghains position? 

That's the overwhelming number of darkspawn he's looking at.

He didn't murder them.  He opted for what he saw as the lesser of two evils.  One evil is charging in all Paladin like and getting ALL of Ferelden's military outside the Arl of Redcliffe's guys slaughtered.. in a potentially futile attempt to to "Save the King" ...

After said King essentially called him an idiot for not wanting to end the blight soonest.

And ignored all his advice. 

[gmale9000]

He ****ed up the plan. The plan was for Loghain to come and reinforce the armies against the already engaged enemy. But instead he just kind of waltzes away the moment the signal comes. This makes him maniacally evil, absurdly stupid, or massively cowardly. Or some where in-between. I don't buy that it was just "a tactical mistake." That's incredibly moronic.

[TreasonWall]

When I saw the pasty guy with dark eyes. Not to mention the dark coloured armor.

[hexaligned]

Yay! Another Loghain thread, he's the only really interesting char in the game imo. His obsession with keeping the kingdom free, blinded him to the blights threat but.... Cailen was an idealistic glory seeking child, which would be fine if he was say, a poet, not so much when thousands of lives are depending on him. He was also letting a foriegn army (one that had occupied and enslaved his people) get a foot hold back in his country. I can't fault Loghain for letting him get a little dose of reality, even if it came a few seconds before he had the life crushed out of him. I haven't read the book, so I don't know about Maric.... but taking Alistair into consideration, that is one seriously flawed gene pool, the Kingdom is better off without it.

[JKoopman]

Lughsan35 wrote...

Daughter dearest was already ruling the kingdom... you know all those little torchlights you see from loghains position? 

That's the overwhelming number of darkspawn he's looking at.

He didn't murder them.  He opted for what he saw as the lesser of two evils.  One evil is charging in all Paladin like and getting ALL of Ferelden's military outside the Arl of Redcliffe's guys slaughtered.. in a potentially futile attempt to to "Save the King" ...

After said King essentially called him an idiot for not wanting to end the blight soonest.

And ignored all his advice. 

Except that's not what happened. Loghain's own plan was to have Cailan and the Grey Wardens lure the darkspawn in at which point his army would sweep down and flank them. It was also his plan, apparently from the beginning, to then abandon the King and depart the field regardless. This wasn't Loghain seeing that all was hopeless and valiantly cutting his losses to fight another day; this was Loghain intentionally betraying the King and knowingly sending him to his death. In fact, it was actually Cailan's suggestion during the pre-battle briefing that they send word to Orlais requesting aid to which Loghain replied that Ferelden could take care of itself. So it's not really fair to say that Cailan ignored Loghain's advice and charged in recklessly when a) Loghain himself believed that the battle was winnable without aid and it was Loghain's own plan that sent the King charging in recklessly in the first place.

[gmale9000]

JKoopman wrote...

Lughsan35 wrote...

Daughter dearest was already ruling the kingdom... you know all those little torchlights you see from loghains position? 

That's the overwhelming number of darkspawn he's looking at.

He didn't murder them.  He opted for what he saw as the lesser of two evils.  One evil is charging in all Paladin like and getting ALL of Ferelden's military outside the Arl of Redcliffe's guys slaughtered.. in a potentially futile attempt to to "Save the King" ...

After said King essentially called him an idiot for not wanting to end the blight soonest.

And ignored all his advice. 

Except that's not what happened. Loghain's own plan was to have Cailan and the Grey Wardens lure the darkspawn in at which point his army would sweep down and flank them. It was also his plan, apparently from the beginning, to then abandon the King and depart the field regardless. This wasn't Loghain seeing that all was hopeless and valiantly cutting his losses to fight another day; this was Loghain intentionally betraying the King and knowingly sending him to his death. In fact, it was actually Cailan's suggestion during the pre-battle briefing that they send word to Orlais requesting aid to which Loghain replied that Ferelden could take care of itself. So it's not really fair to say that Cailan ignored Loghain's advice and charged in recklessly when a) Loghain himself believed that the battle was winnable without aid and it was Loghain's own plan that sent the King charging in recklessly in the first place.

That's a bingo. This is what I'm saying. It's supposed to be ambigious or something, but it just makes Loghain... retarded? Evil? Just kind of an ****?

It just seems like bad writing. Or bad post-game judification by the writers.

[themanynamed]

ROFL! Yeah, I guessed he'd be our villain for the same reasons. Not that I think the game really built his villainhood well. It was a cliched as his appearance and made no sense after reading the books.

[nuculerman]

If you play the human noble origin you realize it must have always been Loghain's plan to get Cailan killed. Cailan would have jailed Earl Howe and Howe was acting under Loghain's orders.



Loghain's not retarded. He's a brilliant tactician that went stir crazy without Orleians to fight so created a scenario in his deranged mind where Orleians were on the verge of taking over and enslaving his country again.

[Aldandil]

gmale9000 wrote...

That's a bingo.

I think you just say "Bingo", but enough Tarantino references...

If I got those cutscenes after Ostagar straight, Loghain doesn't believe that it's a true Blight. For him, it seems that Cailan is off playing hero while inviting Orlesian forces back into Ferelden. This does not sit well with him. In an attempt to make objective assessment, I'd say that this makes him wrong, paranoid and a traitor to his king. I can't see any other interpretation of his behavior. However, he acts with the best for Ferelden (as he perceives it, at least) in mind so I'm not sure about evil. That would be a subjective opinion...

[Bluesmith]

First, Loghain did not believe that this was a true blight in action. He, and pretty much every non-Gray Warden, believed that they were dealing with, at worst, an especially large raid. In the end, he believed that he could easily crush them later, if need be, and that, perhaps, they wouldn't move farther north than Ostagar on their own.



He wanted Cailan dead because Cailan was an idiot, apparently, and because he believed Cailan's poor judgment would eventually destroy Fereldan. In the immediate, Cailan was allowing Orlais to move their military forces deep into the heart of Fereldan; as characters point out over and over again throughout the game, Orlais is known for its superior military, iron-fist, oppression, and megalomania. Indeed, Orlais was *just* ejected from Fereldan.



The Gray Wardens are also not the most neutral of parties. Warden's Keep makes it clear that they have a history of taking political stances, despite their "official" hands-off approach. Between Fereldan and Orlais, there are many more Gray Wardens in the latter - Loghain probably saw them as an Orlesian institution, too powerful for their own good and without legitimate purpose (since Blights don't exist anymore, or so he though).



It is also suggested that, while he is a brilliant military tactician, Loghain is a poor political one. He is more easily led than is apparent and certainly more than he believes he is. Howe and Anora's machinations evidence this in the latter part of the game (which is also when we begin to realize he is becoming increasingly and irrationally paranoid, perhaps due to his age [the taint kills him fast in the epilogue]).