150 réponses à ce sujet

[Biotic Sage]

CottonBALL wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

4. PC elitist dissatisfaction.  I am currently playing through Zelda Majora's Mask again.  The graphics are crap.  However, I don't notice even one bit after about 2 seconds because the game is amazing.  Mass Effect 3's graphics are in HD and look better than the majority of the games out there, even if they aren't up to your uberlite PC's capabilities.  So I know that if I can be immersed in Majora's Mask that you can be immersed in ME3.  I too have an awesome PC that is much better than my 360, but it doesn't bother me that the graphics are slightly less amazing than what they could be.  It's just the nature of the industry and the times.

I see you don't quite grasp the extent of the issues. At least for me the couple of issues are almost gamebreaking. Let me give you a couple of examples:

1) I play primarily soldier and Adrenaline Rush for me is key. In this particular PC demo it is blatantly broken. What happens is I click to activate it and it does nothing but cooldown still occurs as if I used it, no time dilation effect whatsoever. But when it works it is ok but still feels so watered down compared to ME2, it's just dissapointing, really.

2) The mouse support in quickpause meniu is shoddy at best. It just fails to connect the LMB clicks with the power icons most of the time.

Both of these issues seem to be legitimate.  I was only addressing the 4 specific issues I outlined in my OP.  You misunderstand me if you think my message is, "Let's give Bioware a free pass on everything!  No questions asked!"

The PC issue I was referring to was only concerning the graphics, not the interface or AR bugs.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 15 février 2012 - 04:51 .

[MerchantGOL]

lucidfox wrote...


Ashley was previously established to have a personality that contrasts her ME3 look, so it represents a shift in tone and broken characterization.

As for Dragon Age, it doesn't have blatant fanservice. All the outfits I've seen in it are tasteful and in line with the characters' personalities. Most women's armor doesn't even show breasts - it's bulky and relatively realistic. To me, it's a sign that its developers valued the thematic integrity of the setting more than the "sex sells" marketing cliche.

Sorry wut?

http://media.giantbo...emon_connor.jpg 

http://images.wikia....gan_profile.jpg 

http://images.wikia....r_Armor_Set.jpg 

Modifié par MerchantGOL, 15 février 2012 - 04:57 .

[Biotic Sage]

MerchantGOL wrote...

lucidfox wrote...


Ashley was previously established to have a personality that contrasts her ME3 look, so it represents a shift in tone and broken characterization.

As for Dragon Age, it doesn't have blatant fanservice. All the outfits I've seen in it are tasteful and in line with the characters' personalities. Most women's armor doesn't even show breasts - it's bulky and relatively realistic. To me, it's a sign that its developers valued the thematic integrity of the setting more than the "sex sells" marketing cliche.

Sorry wut?

http://media.giantbo...emon_connor.jpg 

http://images.wikia....gan_profile.jpg 

http://images.wikia....r_Armor_Set.jpg 

Not listening!  I'm not listening!

[CottonBALL]

I don't giva a crap about graphics, what infuriates me is that PC port is half assed in the functionality department, again.

[Phoenix_Fyre]

I approve of this thread. Logic on the BSN? Scandalous! Pre-order cancelled!

[Biotic Sage]

CottonBALL wrote...

I don't giva a crap about graphics, what infuriates me is that PC port is half assed in the functionality department, again.

Well I sympathize with you there.  Controls should be optimized for each system.  This is something that the developer has control over, unlike the graphics standard which has to be console friendly because of the current nature of the video game industry.

[MerchantGOL]

i don't see any thing wrong with the animations or graphics, i mean what are we comparing them to exactly?

[Biotic Sage]

MerchantGOL wrote...

i don't see any thing wrong with the animations or graphics, i mean what are we comparing them to exactly?

I'm not exactly crazy about the running animation, but at the same time my gaming experience isn't ruined because of it.  It isn't that bad.  That's kind of my whole point.  There's always going to be things in a game that gamers will disagree with or don't like so much, but you have to take it as a whole and chill a bit about the nitpicks.

[lucidfox]

Biotic Sage wrote...

Again, stylized sci-fi, not hard sci-fi.  That's how it's always been.  ME has never been a gritty, realistic view of the future.

People keep throwing around the words "hard sci-fi" like some kind of curiosity-stopper, like it immediately shuts down all complaints about eyeroll-worthy spots in the setting.

Logical fallacy number one: equating "realistic" with "gritty". Mostly coming from people who for some bizarre reason have a psychological need for reality to suck.

Logical fallacy number two: equating "realistic" with "believable".

Is ME realistic? No. FTL probably doesn't exist, and neither do aliens (at least, in the wide variety present in ME).

Is ME believable? To me, yes. It works as an extrapolation into the future under its own fictional terms (assuming the basic premises of the setting like the existence of element zero, mass relays and so on). This is something I cannot say about, say, Star Wars, Star Trek or Doctor Who. It's impossible to conceive of a realistic future unless you have a time machine, but to me, the ME setting makes sense. Again, something I cannot say of the absolute majority of non-literature SF franchises.

Which is why these few minor immersion-breaking elements sting so much, and why I complain about them in ME when I would have swallowed them without question in something like Star Wars, because they're on par with its general silliness. Because I hold ME to higher standards - and it's an achievement of BioWare's writing so far.

[Splinter Cell 108]

People are scared especially since DA2 was a mess. BioWare isn't doing much to reassure anyone about anything, so far all I've seen are some tweets, that works for some but not for everyone. I do agree that some complaints are completely pointless and unnecessary but they should still do more than just write something on twitter.

[lucidfox]

MerchantGOL wrote...

Sorry wut?

http://media.giantbo...emon_connor.jpg 

http://images.wikia....gan_profile.jpg 

http://images.wikia....r_Armor_Set.jpg 

A lust demon for whom such appearance is the whole point.

A nonconformist witch living in the middle of nowhere with her mother, where, again, choice of wardrobe is part of her characterization. You might as well complain about stylistic nudity in Sailor Moon.

And a set of semi-armor for an elusive, danger-prone forest elf society that emphasizes mobility, ease of wearing 24/7, and hit-and-run tactics.

Makes sense to me.

[Edit: changed "anger-prone" to "danger-prone". Freudian slip? o_O]

Modifié par lucidfox, 15 février 2012 - 05:24 .

[Biotic Sage]

lucidfox wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

Again, stylized sci-fi, not hard sci-fi.  That's how it's always been.  ME has never been a gritty, realistic view of the future.

People keep throwing around the words "hard sci-fi" like some kind of curiosity-stopper, like it immediately shuts down all complaints about eyeroll-worthy spots in the setting.

Logical fallacy number one: equating "realistic" with "gritty". Mostly coming from people who for some bizarre reason have a psychological need for reality to suck.

Logical fallacy number two: equating "realistic" with "believable".

Is ME realistic? No. FTL probably doesn't exist, and neither do aliens (at least, in the wide variety present in ME).

Is ME believable? To me, yes. It works as an extrapolation into the future under its own fictional terms (assuming the basic premises of the setting like the existence of element zero, mass relays and so on). This is something I cannot say about, say, Star Wars, Star Trek or Doctor Who. It's impossible to conceive of a realistic future unless you have a time machine, but to me, the ME setting makes sense. Again, something I cannot say of the absolute majority of non-literature SF franchises.

Which is why these few minor immersion-breaking elements sting so much, and why I complain about them in ME when I would have swallowed them without question in something like Star Wars, because they're on par with its general silliness. Because I hold ME to higher standards - and it's an achievement of BioWare's writing so far.

Did I equate realistic to gritty?  I said realistic, gritty: two separate adjectives.

Verisimilitude is what you are talking about in your second logical fallacy.  I wasn't making the fallacy you speak of.  Mass Effect has plenty of verisimilitude to me. 

Lucid, you just said yourself that they are minor elements.  In The Godfather, when Sonny Corleone beats down on his sister's husband the fist is obviously not making contact with his face, it is one of the most immersion breaking things of all time I've seen in a movie.  The Godfather is still one of my favorite movies though, because taken as a whole, with the nitpicks set aside, its positives far outweigh its negatives.  In my opinion you are focusing on the nitpicks instead of giving credit where credit is due, and to me that is a disservice to the Mass Effect franchise.

And on your above post, no ranger of any sort would have their stomach completely unarmored, the male version of that armor certainly doesn't.  It's called leather, it's light and flexible.  Dragon Age had a "sex and violence" trailer, I remember because I watched it and rolled my eyes, before I actually played the game.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 15 février 2012 - 05:18 .

[MerchantGOL]

lucidfox wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...

Sorry wut?

http://media.giantbo...emon_connor.jpg 

http://images.wikia....gan_profile.jpg 

http://images.wikia....r_Armor_Set.jpg 

A lust demon for whom such appearance is the whole point.

A nonconformist witch living in the middle of nowhere with her mother, where, again, choice of wardrobe is part of her characterization. You might as well complain about stylistic nudity in Sailor Moon.

And a set of semi-armor for an elusive, anger-prone forest elf society that emphasizes mobility, ease of wearing 24/7, and hit-and-run tactics.

Makes sense to me.

It is still blatant fanservice no matter how you rationlize it or make excuses.

Now let me clear their is nothing wrong with fanservice, i love some  T&A but dont  ****** in my cereal and call it milk

Modifié par MerchantGOL, 15 février 2012 - 05:19 .

[lucidfox]

Biotic Sage wrote...

Verisimilitude is what you are talking about in your second logical fallacy.

Indeed. I was actually going to mention that very word before the browser ate my post and I had to retype it.

And well, it's just my nature. I always focus on the negative because it doesn't take much effort to see the positive - devoted fans will write about it more eloquently than me. And no matter how much I like a franchise (and I do like the ME setting, despite its relatively minor flaws), I always see potential for improvement. Everywhere.

[Biotic Sage]

lucidfox wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

Verisimilitude is what you are talking about in your second logical fallacy.

Indeed. I was actually going to mention that very word before the browser ate my post and I had to retype it.

And well, it's just my nature. I always focus on the negative because it doesn't take much effort to see the positive - devoted fans will write about it more eloquently than me. And no matter how much I like a franchise (and I do like the ME setting, despite its relatively minor flaws), I always see potential for improvement. Everywhere.

Well you should keep your critical eye, that's not the point of my thread here.  While we may disagree on some of the criticisms, I definitely agree with the critical thought process.  Nothing is perfect, but some people will legitimately not enjoy the game or refuse to play it because they get completely hung up on their nitpicks.  They would be doing a favor to themselves if they tried to enjoy the game and then see what happens.  There's a difference between being critical and not allowing yourself to enjoy something, and that was my point with the "chill" message.

[Unbannable]

Biotic Sage wrote...


So what you're saying is that ME3 does not look better than the best Wii games?  Because to me that is absurd.  If the graphics were truly bad, then it would be one thing, and truly cause for concern.  That's not the case.  The graphics are very good, just not the best they could be.

As for the console gaming paradigm, that is an industry problem, not Bioware's fault.

I'm wondering how you can come to the conclusion that I'm saying ME3 does not look better than the best Wii games? 

What I'm saying is quite simple, and definitely isn't rocket science.  There's no logical reason whatsoever that the PC version of Mass Effect 3 should be limited in the same manner that the console versions are.

The gun holster issue is a good example.  The consoles don't have enough memory to store the animations for holstering weapons, but for the PC, this isn't an issue.  Same thing with the texture resolution.  Knowing Bioware however, the PC version of ME3 still won't have the ability to holster weapons.

Why should the PC be subject to the same limitations of the consoles, when it's capable of so much more?

After all, the difference in processing power between the 360/PS3 and a high end gaming PC is much greater than the difference between the Nintendo Wii and the 360/PS3.

Well it's certainly your perogative to hold Bioware to low standards if you wish (I'm sure Bioware just loves people like you since they can get away with cutting so many corners), but as a paying customer, I will hold them to MY standards, especially if they want to be known as a AAA developer.

[Carnage752]

Biotic Sage... You have my sword! This will become a beacon of hope in the wasteland of BSN!

Oh, and as long as the final game actually has all the polish missing from the demo, then I think we are in for a treat !

[Biotic Sage]

Unbannable wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...


So what you're saying is that ME3 does not look better than the best Wii games?  Because to me that is absurd.  If the graphics were truly bad, then it would be one thing, and truly cause for concern.  That's not the case.  The graphics are very good, just not the best they could be.

As for the console gaming paradigm, that is an industry problem, not Bioware's fault.

I'm wondering how you can come to the conclusion that I'm saying ME3 does not look better than the best Wii games? 

What I'm saying is quite simple, and definitely isn't rocket science.  There's no logical reason whatsoever that the PC version of Mass Effect 3 should be limited in the same manner that the console versions are.

The gun holster issue is a good example.  The consoles don't have enough memory to store the animations for holstering weapons, but for the PC, this isn't an issue.  Same thing with the texture resolution.  Knowing Bioware however, the PC version of ME3 still won't have the ability to holster weapons.

Why should the PC be subject to the same limitations of the consoles, when it's capable of so much more?

After all, the difference in processing power between the 360/PS3 and a high end gaming PC is much greater than the difference between the Nintendo Wii and the 360/PS3.

Well it's certainly your perogative to hold Bioware to low standards if you wish (I'm sure Bioware just loves people like you since they can get away with cutting so many corners), but as a paying customer, I will hold them to MY standards, especially if they want to be known as a AAA developer.

I have repeated myself many times here, but for your sake I will say it again.  In an ideal world, PC games would make optimal use of the superior system.  However, we do not live in an ideal world.  We live in a world run by the current video game development paradigm.  This paradigm has to heavily accomodate consoles because that's where a large portion of the revenue comes from.  Any smart developer will have a business plan that allocates funds for one universal development of the game that can span across all systems.  Once again, this isn't ideal, but this isn't Bioware's fault.  You can't be a AAA developer if you develop exclusively for the PC.  You won't have the money to give it the production value that you also crave.

It is an industry issue.

Please don't act like I'm the one who is not getting it here...haha  "It definitely isn't rocket science": man, seriously.  You're killin me here.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 15 février 2012 - 05:37 .

[Kasai666]

You know, this is the best thread I've seen here in a while. Thank you OP.

[Unbannable]

Biotic Sage wrote...

I have repeated myself many times here, but for your sake I will say it again.  In an ideal world, PC games would make optimal use of the superior system.  However, we do not live in an ideal world.  We live in a world run by the current video game development paradigm.  This paradigm has to heavily accomodate consoles because that's where a large portion of the revenue comes from.  Any smart developer will have a business plan that allocates funds for one universal development of the game that can span across all systems.  Once again, this isn't ideal, but this isn't Bioware's fault.  You can't be a AAA developer if you develop exclusively for the PC.  You won't have the money to give it the production value that you also crave.

It is an industry issue.

Please don't act like I'm the one who is not getting it here...haha

Again, you are making excuses for Bioware's laziness.  Have you ever played Batman Arkham City?  A wonderful game which is multiplatform.

The PC version of Batman Arkham City, unlike the PC version of Mass Effect 2, wasn't castrated.  It had high resolution textures, DX11, PhysX, 3D Vision etc..... 

Why is it that Rocksteady, a relative newcomer to the developer scene, can accomplish something that a much more experienced and resourceful studio like Bioware cannot?

The problem is that Bioware's production model is flawed.  Instead of developing top down like a sensible developer would, they develop from the bottom up, which is how we end up with half assed console ports like Mass Effect 2......and probably Mass Effect 3.

Modifié par Unbannable, 15 février 2012 - 05:44 .

[Loreshield]

Warlord Okeer approves. And so do I.

[Biotic Sage]

Unbannable wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

I have repeated myself many times here, but for your sake I will say it again.  In an ideal world, PC games would make optimal use of the superior system.  However, we do not live in an ideal world.  We live in a world run by the current video game development paradigm.  This paradigm has to heavily accomodate consoles because that's where a large portion of the revenue comes from.  Any smart developer will have a business plan that allocates funds for one universal development of the game that can span across all systems.  Once again, this isn't ideal, but this isn't Bioware's fault.  You can't be a AAA developer if you develop exclusively for the PC.  You won't have the money to give it the production value that you also crave.

It is an industry issue.

Please don't act like I'm the one who is not getting it here...haha

Again, you are making excuses for Bioware's laziness.  Have you ever played Batman Arkham City?  A wonderful game which is multiplatform.

The PC version of Batman Arkham City, unlike the PC version of Mass Effect 2, wasn't castrated.  It had high resolution textures, DX11, PhysX, 3D Vision etc..... 

Why is it that Rocksteady, a relative newcomer to the developer scene, can accomplish something that a much more experienced studio like Bioware that also has more resources cannot?

The problem is that Bioware's production model is flawed.  Instead of developing top down like a sensible developer would, they develop from the bottom up, which is how we end up with half assed console ports like Mass Effect 2......and probably Mass Effect 3.

Ok so you want an HD texture pack?  Fair enough, I think Bioware should absolutely give it to you.  This is a completely reasonable consumer request. 

And it is an excuse, but that's the nature of the industry.  It's realistic and if Rocksteady continues to have success they will adopt the most financially responsible business plan as well.

Back to my main point, will you seriously enjoy Mass Effect that much less if for some reason you don't get it?  Because I have to think if that's the case you are getting in the way of your own happiness and video game enjoyment.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 15 février 2012 - 05:50 .

[lucidfox]

Biotic Sage wrote...

You can't be a AAA developer if you develop exclusively for the PC.

What's an AAA developer, anyway, and why should someone's desire to match an arbitrary label matter to me as a player? Plenty of games I play are PC exclusives.