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[aznsoisauce]

saracen16 wrote...

aznsoisauce wrote...

saracen16 wrote...

aznsoisauce wrote...

I'm still trying to stop flipping tables for not having Grunt in ME3.

Story-wise, what was the point of Mass Effect 2? Just for the sake of having a trilogy?

No. The point of ME2 was to explore the universe and give it a justification of sorts that it is worth saving. That was essentially the story: you discover the many races and places that make the ME universe worthwhile. This purpose was fulfilled by having a multi-racial crew who joined you for the sake of stopping the Collector threat.

Honestly, that was achieved with Mass Effect 1.

Not in its entirety. We discovered more about the genophage in ME2 and from it the relationship between the salarians and the krogan. We also got to interact with the migrant fleet, the quarian flotilla, a chance we only had in the form of dialogue with Tali in ME1. We also got to explore the darker side of the galaxy, namely Omega, and learn more about the society in the Citadel. We visited an asari colony world, Ilium, and got a glimpse of their culture. To say that all of this was achieved in ME1 is laughable.

Okay.

[BlueMagitek]

Well, when there's a possibility that there are only two survivors, and neither is guaranteed (though Miranda is very difficult to kill), you don't want to fill your expensive voiced main cast with them, especially when you want more squad interaction. So your squad has people that are either known to survive (Kaiden or Ashley, Liara) and new people.

Now, Garrus and Tali are getting preferred treatment because of fanbase pandering.

[AgitatedLemon]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Now, Garrus and Tali are getting preferred treatment because of fanbase pandering.

Ugh, don't remind me. Garrus is my favorite turian, but I'm about sick of him being forced onto my squad. I'd trade him for Miranda in a New York minute.

[BlueMagitek]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Now, Garrus and Tali are getting preferred treatment because of fanbase pandering.

Ugh, don't remind me. Garrus is my favorite turian, but I'm about sick of him being forced onto my squad. I'd trade him for Miranda in a New York minute.

Well you didn't need to take him with you in ME 1.  I'm not sure about ME 2 though; do you really need to recruit him?  He has no importance to the plot like Mordin did.

And yeah, I'd gladly switch Team Dextro for Team DLC (Zaeed & Kasumi).  

[AgitatedLemon]

BlueMagitek wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Now, Garrus and Tali are getting preferred treatment because of fanbase pandering.

Ugh, don't remind me. Garrus is my favorite turian, but I'm about sick of him being forced onto my squad. I'd trade him for Miranda in a New York minute.

Well you didn't need to take him with you in ME 1.  I'm not sure about ME 2 though; do you really need to recruit him?  He has no importance to the plot like Mordin did.

And yeah, I'd gladly switch Team Dextro for Team DLC (Zaeed & Kasumi).  

I know you can avoid him in ME1 (I didn't when I played the game all those years ago, though). He's mandatory in ME2.

[BlueMagitek]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

I know you can avoid him in ME1 (I didn't when I played the game all those years ago, though). He's mandatory in ME2.

I actually almost did my first playthrough of ME 1; I couldn't find him after I initially denied him (I mean, come on, bringing a Turian onto a human stealth ship?  At least Udina forced me to take the quarian and the krogan just kind of invited himself along), and then I heard about how absolutely amazing Garrus was.

It was then a tad underwhelming.

Is it like a character limitation or what?

[AgitatedLemon]

It's just Bioware making Garrus into Shepard's #1 sidekick.

[AgitatedLemon]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

You have to recruit Garrus, sure, but then you can leave him in the main battery, never talk to him or use him, and then send him to get a rocket in the face and ensure that he won't appear in ME3. He's hardly "shoved in your face" or "forced down your throat" like so many like to claim.

Personally, I think that getting rid of the guy who's been with Shepard the whole way through in the last installment would be a poor move anyway.

He's very much shoved down your throat, for the same reason as the bolded section. Same goes with Tali.

Just because you can get him killed doesn't mean anything. Bioware is still saying "HERE! LOOK AT GARRUS! HE'S COOL, RIGHT? C'MON, HE'S A COOL GUY AND DOESN'T AFRAID OF ANYTHING!"

Garrus and Tali are the only 2 people to be with you for all 3 games, and not everyone gets moist for them.

[BlueMagitek]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

You have to recruit Garrus, sure, but then you can leave him in the main battery, never talk to him or use him, and then send him to get a rocket in the face and ensure that he won't appear in ME3. He's hardly "shoved in your face" or "forced down your throat" like so many like to claim.

Personally, I think that getting rid of the guy who's been with Shepard the whole way through in the last installment would be a poor move anyway.

Which is good, because as Shepard says, Garrus has always been ugly.

But that's the thing; he doesn't have to be with you through everything.  He shouldn't have to be with you in ME 2; he doesn't have a purpose like Mordin does.

[Fugiz]

My Garrus died..

[AgitatedLemon]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Just because something is an option doesn't mean it's being shoved down your throat. S/S romances (actually, romances in general) are a prime example of that: don't like 'em, don't do 'em. If there is a squadmate being "shoved down your throat", as it were, it's easily Liara; she has the most plot importance, and is the only person required to be in your squad in multiple games. Not to mention the plot armour.

And sure, you might not like Garrus, but you might not like any other given squadmate either. Most trilogies don't toss aside people who have been major characters in the first two installments for the last one anyway, and I see no good reason why ME should.

Garrus isn't an option in ME2 or 3. Tali's worse, she's mandatory in all 3. The romances are a poor example, since you can go all 3 games without pursuing one at all. And yes, I do like Garrus. I'm just sick of seeing his face (And Tali).

And Garrus? Important? wut? He wasn't important in ME1 or 2, and his semi-relevance in ME3 is a forced plot device.

[AgitatedLemon]

Cthulhu42 wrote...
I never said Garrus was important.

Also, Tali's not mandatory since ME1. You can just never go to Haestrom, and she's gone from the series forever. You will get Kasumi killed without Tali's shield upgrade, but them's the breaks.

I thought Tali was mandatory? Maybe my game just broke, but my last handful of PT's, the Reaper IFF would never initiate until I picked her up.

Garrus is only "major" because Bioware needed to meet the alien quota, and decided he was a good fit. He offers little-to-nothing in terms of backstory or plot relevance. Tali suffers from the same problem.

[AgitatedLemon]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...
I never said Garrus was important.

Also, Tali's not mandatory since ME1. You can just never go to Haestrom, and she's gone from the series forever. You will get Kasumi killed without Tali's shield upgrade, but them's the breaks.

I thought Tali was mandatory? Maybe my game just broke, but my last handful of PT's, the Reaper IFF would never initiate until I picked her up.

I assure you, I've heard several say that the squadmates in 2nd round recruitment are optional.

Garrus is only "major" because Bioware needed to meet the alien quota, and decided he was a good fit. He offers little-to-nothing in terms of backstory or plot relevance. Tali suffers from the same problem.

I don't see how their backstories are any weaker than most other squadmates; as for plot-relevance, Tali does have plenty. Spoiler: *snip*. Plot relevance is a pretty silly thing to pick squadmates for anyway.

Like I said previously, Tali and Garrus' semi-relevance in ME3 is the effect of bad writing. In ME1, Tali was relevant for all of 10 minutes, and even then, she did *not* need to join Shepard. Their backstories are weaker than the others because they have next to no backstory. We don't know anything about either of their childhoods or past experiences, except for Garrus' stint on Omega and his business with Dr. Saleon. Tali has even less than that. Of course, there are a number of other squad mates who suffer the same problem.

Modifié par AgitatedLemon, 18 février 2012 - 04:10 .

[AgitatedLemon]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Like I said previously, Tali and Garrus' semi-relevance in ME3 is the effect of bad writing. In ME1, Tali was relevant for all of 10 minutes, and even then, she did *not* need to join Shepard. Their backstories are weaker than the others because they have next to no backstory. We don't know anything about either of their childhoods or past experiences, except for Garrus' stint on Omega and his business with Dr. Saleon. Tali has even less than that.

Ah yes, "bad writing". How deliciously subjective.

And Tali never talks about her childhood? Yes she does.

And as for past experiences, Tali and Garrus are each going to be getting their own comic book issue. So that'll add some.

Judging squadmates by how much they talk about their past seems a bit strange regardless.

Tali does not, unless I'm missing something. Shala'Raan talks quite a bit about it (Well, not a lot).

I'm not judging anyone for anything. I'm stating my distaste for the two of them because I'm tired of having them on my squad, despite how much I like them as characters. And I've yet to meet anyone who honestly thinks Tali and Garrus' forced relevance in ME3 is anything but shoddy.

[aznsoisauce]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...
I never said Garrus was important.

Also, Tali's not mandatory since ME1. You can just never go to Haestrom, and she's gone from the series forever. You will get Kasumi killed without Tali's shield upgrade, but them's the breaks.

I thought Tali was mandatory? Maybe my game just broke, but my last handful of PT's, the Reaper IFF would never initiate until I picked her up.

Garrus is only "major" because Bioware needed to meet the alien quota, and decided he was a good fit. He offers little-to-nothing in terms of backstory or plot relevance. Tali suffers from the same problem.

I'm not going to argue character relevances but I will confirm that none of the squadmates that become available after Horizon are necessary for the the Collector Base mission (the one that leads into the IFF one) to initiate.

I am currently on a playthrough where I had only recruited the pre-Horizon squaddies plus both DLC characters. I did both Zaeed's and Kasumi's LMs and a few sidemissions (sorry, I can't remember how many exactly). I hadn't even gotten around to recruiting the other squadmates when the Collector Base mission was forced on me.

[BlueMagitek]

Explain how, outside of the Thanix cannon, Garrus is important to the plot?

[AgitatedLemon]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Explain how, outside of the Thanix cannon, Garrus is important to the plot?

He isn't.

[Poquimo]

Why does a character have to be relevant to the plot to be valid? There are plenty of other characters who aren't relevant and I don't see that being used against them...
I mean seriously if you don't like a squadmate don't do their loyalty mission and make them bite it during the suicide mission! I did it plenty of times XD

Though I have to agree with previous comments. I think it would have been more interesting to pick two of the ME2 crowd to come with you (even more so if you romanced them) rather than giving us these all new ones. It's THOSE guys who are taking the ME2 peeps slots, not Garrus and Tali. I'm more annoyed about them being added than characters who have been in the series for the whole deal being available. ME2 should have been the cut off for adding new characters to the trilogy, unless they were just gonna add maybe one more like the special squadmate.

[AgitatedLemon]

SpottySpec wrote...

Why does a character have to be relevant to the plot to be valid? There are plenty of other characters who aren't relevant and I don't see that being used against them...
I mean seriously if you don't like a squadmate don't do their loyalty mission and make them bite it during the suicide mission! I did it plenty of times XD

It doesn't make them any less valid. 

However, it's annoying when Bioware is still saying "HEY GUYS! LOOK AT GARRUS! HE'S A GREAT DUDE! NO, REALLY, HE'S AWESOME!" by putting him with us *again* (With Tali).

That said, I can name at least 5 squad mates who aren't terribly plot relevant from ME2 off the top of my head.