203 réponses à ce sujet

[Darth_Trethon]

The child is riddled with A LOT of meaning....mature far beyond his age and punches a line that strikes at Shepard's heart, at the heart of the hero's greatest fear and inescapable reality....you can't save everyone....no matter how hard you try or how good you are you will never be good enough to defeat death. That simple line is certainly not sloppy writing....it is masterful in the way in which it manages to put the reaper invasion into context....you must leave and seek help elsewhere for you are helpless and you cannot win, there is nothing you can do save run and live to fight another day because you are just not good enough.

[XCPTNL]

I was missed a Renegade choice like: Well, I can shoot you right now because that's probably better than being toasted in an explosion when your shuttle gets destroyed by big ****ing laser or being transformed into some kind of ugly husk. How does that sound for helping you?

[Drake-Shepard]

why didn't the reaper shoot the normandy after he shot those pesky lil 'puddle jumpers'. Have to hand it to that reaper he had some good aim.
Was it the Normandy's invisible tech or just hollywood 'everything blows up around you except you'

Modifié par Drake-Shepard, 15 février 2012 - 11:40 .

[Sia_Sinblade]

I just thought of one alteration I think would make things better for a lot of people. Too late to do it now, but here it goes:

Have the kid be carried to the shuttle by a Marine. That way, they found him in a duct and grabbed him as they were headed to the escape shuttle. The kid's fear is never dismissed, and the disbelief that he wants to hide in the duct at one point, then run out in the next is gone.

[Lykaon63]

No one else in the demo ever reacted to the child. Anderson didn't seem to see him in the ventilation shaft. The soldiers in the shuttles made no effort to help him up even though he was struggling to climb in.

I'm not convinced the child is even real. I think the possibility exists that the child is a figment of Shepherd's imagination. Perhaps an echo of her past, or a symbol for her fear of losing humanity.

Modifié par Lykaon63, 15 février 2012 - 11:42 .

[RVallant]

Meh, even if he went with Shepard he was fodder. He and Anderson struggled enough getting through the crap and fighting as it is without having a kid get in the way. People nitpick too much.

[Eain]

squee913 wrote...

Silly insults aside, you admit that there are kids wise beyond their age, so why can't this kid be one of them? 

I'm gonna quote a book I have on storywriting, written by two professional editors with years of experience in writing. It's called How Not To Write a Novel, if you want to look it up, and they wrote this book as a guide to young writers based on the amount of nonsense they've seen come across their desks over the years.

Why your job is harder than God's.

In real life, no matter how unlikely anything is, if it really happens we do not question that it would happen. Our credulity is not stretched to the breaking point, causing us to stop participating in the world and go looking for another one that is more convincing. Thus, God can work with the most mindbending concidences, far-fetched plot devices and perverse dramatic ironies, never giving a moment's thought to whether or not his audience will buy it. A writer does not have that luxury.

When a writer proposes an unlikely event, we buy it or not based on whether the writer has managed to create a world in which the event is interrelated with everything around it, so it appears to the reader as something that might naturally happen. Unlikely strokes of good fortune do not appear from nowhere;  we arrive at the discovery of the briefcase of cash with some inkling of the chain of events that led to it being in the hotel closet. What might appear to the characters as amazing good luck should for the reader have a certain feeling of inevitability.  We are made to understand that a character behaved in a particular way because of the person she is; she does not suddenly break character to do one thing that is most convenient for the author.

Strokes of good luck and mind-boggling concidences can be used when that is what your story is about. A character whose problems are miraculously resolved when he finds a duffel bag filled with unmarked currency will be received by the reader very differently than a charater whose problems begin when he finds the money.

So, in a good story, the writer strives for a balance of likelihood and contingency: the more unlikely an event, the more deeply rooted and widely integrated it should be into the chapters that came before it. Above all, the writer does not assume that an event in his novel is believable simply because he says so.

Now of course we all have different standards to which we hold the suspension of our disbelief, but the above piece is absolutely true for me. Child has no background, has not been established as a character, he's essentially noone. He doesn't even have a name. So why should I forgive the writer's sloppiness and concede that this is likely a really smart kid, when it is painfully evident that said kid is instead simply the product of poor writing?

You understand my fear that all of ME3 will be full of this kind of thing.

Modifié par Eain, 15 février 2012 - 11:50 .

[Merchant2006]

BAWWWWWWWWW

[Nu-Nu]

Adrenaline Junkie wrote...

Nu-Nu wrote...

Newt felt safer in the duct, so maybe the kid felt safer in the duct than being out in the open with Shepard?

I could buy that, but we see him out in the open with other adults later.

I think I know what his purpose was in the narrative, it was pretty transparent, but as soon as he said "You can't help me" I was like "No way? You just turned down a potential ticket out of the apocalypse?"

He's either an idiot or the victim of some highly unrealistic writing. Maybe both.

He probaly spotted the ship which made him feel safer, it wasor he felt safer because there were a lot more soldiers. He probaly felt safer in a group than just him and Shepard, we may know Shepard but he doesn't. After all, he just made it to the duct before a reaper blasted that part of the building, then there were those creatures inside. It was probaly a bit too overwhelming.

You notice him running into the door if you weren't too busy shooting those human creatures which I can't remember the name of.

[Darth_Trethon]

What bugs me is how quick people are to see simplicity or sloppy writing in what is likely one of the most masterful pieces of fiction ever written....that line has such massive amounts of meaning that it is simply amazing trying to see a fraction of its depth. This game truly has the potential to rival KotOR in terms of storytelling quality.

[mornegroth]

I have a theory.


Wait for it...


THE KID DOESN'T EXIST! :-O


Now, seriously. I think it's pretty obvious the kid is just a result of Shepard going bonkers. He's developing some sort of psychosis due to the people he lost (Vermire, Suicide Mission), which is kinda cool if I might say.

That' why the kid is all by himself at the beginning of the game. That's why he answers with a "You can't help me" and pulls a Stealth Hi/Bye afterwards. That's why no one helps the kid getting into the shuttle, he pulls himself up. That's why Shepard looks like the only guy who is aware of his existence.


Or it can be bad writing.

Modifié par mornegroth, 15 février 2012 - 11:55 .

[bennyjammin79]

Do better.

[Ranicus56]

LilyasAvalon wrote...

Armass81 wrote...

I still think the intro was better than in ME2 where Shepard dies and is then brough back. Oh look it's been two years and youre now with Cerberus... And what are these "thermal clip" things and robots with red square faces attacking you?

Thanks.

Makes it worse when you consider it's only been a month in between ME1's ending and ME2's intro. xD

On topic though, I still believe that kid is a figment of Shepard's imagination.

same here.  when the kid was getting in the car no one was helping, or even seem to notice him/her being there.

[Lykaon63]

mornegroth wrote...

I have a theory.


Wait for it...


THE KID DOESN'T EXIST! :-O

This.

All signs point to the kid being a figment of Shepherd's imagination.

[nitefyre410]

Its an interesting theme they are trying to create - not the first time I have seen. Still interesting though.

[Ome6ablak]

The immersion of this video game is too unrealistic for me because this kid in the duct didn't make any sense whatsoever. <_<
And this whole thing with FTL drives, blue alien women who can mate with anyone in the galaxy, ancient sentient machines destroying the known galaxy, giant worms that spit acid so damaging it can destroy a tank.<_<

Oh my god where is the realism! 

End Sarcasm.:innocent:

[UndercoverDoctor]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

The child is riddled with A LOT of meaning....mature far beyond his age and punches a line that strikes at Shepard's heart, at the heart of the hero's greatest fear and inescapable reality....you can't save everyone....no matter how hard you try or how good you are you will never be good enough to defeat death. That simple line is certainly not sloppy writing....it is masterful in the way in which it manages to put the reaper invasion into context....you must leave and seek help elsewhere for you are helpless and you cannot win, there is nothing you can do save run and live to fight another day because you are just not good enough.

Too obvious.

[Darth_Trethon]

Yes the child definitely appears to not be real but it does not detract from the amazing amount of depth and meaning that his short presence has......especially if not real he would indicate so many aspects of Shep's subconscious.....fears and hopes and much more.

[Lotion Soronarr]

squee913 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

It doesnt' feel real..at all.

It doesn't sound like a something a child would say.
And why would he run from Shpeard, only to run to a soldier?

He is a child. He tries to get to the safest place he can see. He felt safer in the air vent than with Shep. Then for any number of reasons he had to leave the vent and was out in the open. After seeing a giant monster point a laser at him, he decided that on the shuttle was the safest place for him... What is so hard to understand about that?

No buying it, sorry.

Seen plenty of out-of-place and forced dialouge to know to distringuish it from natrually flowing dialogue.



For you see, I don't give a rats a** about symbolism, inferref meanings and "artificial" construct made just to elicit a specific reaction.
All I want is a world that feels real, where everyone (no expections) acts in a realistic fashion.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 15 février 2012 - 12:07 .

[jbadm04]

Nu-Nu wrote...

I like it, it's like that scene with Newt from Aliens, in fact it's almost like homage to Newt. Newt didn't believe the soldiers could help her and she survived in the ducts, and then she died at the intro to Alien 3. Newt felt safer in the duct, so maybe the kid felt safer in the duct than being out in the open with Shepard?

This ... came up right in the mind when reading the first "its so unrealistic" post. Newt pretty much saw every adult (including parents) slaugthered, when Ripley comes for her and asks "dont you think you would be safer with us?" New replies, and quite harshly at that "No! Can I leave now?".

The question is, what did the "child" saw? This is my biggest problem with the intro-level. Its way too chirurgical and sterile... when looking across the scenere I would expect a lot of husks and other badies slaughtering citizes and fighting with police/soldiers. It would actualy give the whole scenery more depth.

[CroGamer002]

Ghost Rider LSOV wrote...

Adrenaline Junkie wrote...

Why would anybody say that? Especially a kid?

Go back in time.
Become a kid again.
See everything you know and everyone get killed all around you.
Try to think coherently.

Pretty much.

[Marta Rio]

Adrenaline Junkie wrote...

Nu-Nu wrote...

Newt felt safer in the duct, so maybe the kid felt safer in the duct than being out in the open with Shepard?

I could buy that, but we see him out in the open with other adults later.

I think I know what his purpose was in the narrative, it was pretty transparent, but as soon as he said "You can't help me" I was like "No way? You just turned down a potential ticket out of the apocalypse?"

He's either an idiot or the victim of some highly unrealistic writing. Maybe both.

Or maybe his parents (who probably were incinerated in front of his eyes moments earlier) told him never to "get in a van" with a stranger.  Even if that stranger has sweet sweet candy or a "get-out-of-the-apocalypse free" ticket.

Also, hasn't the Council been trying to discredit/slander Shep for the better part of 2+ years?  And he recently murdered 300,000 aliens in furtherance of what most people (up until the previous 10 minutes) viewed as a conspiracy theory.  Could be that the kid just doesn't want to go with reknowned delusional psycho Commander Shepard...

All joking aside, I don't find it unbelieveable that he would change his mind about getting out of the duct.  Children are fickle idiots who will change their minds in a heartbeat.  If anything, it's realistic writing.

[DimmockDude]

Total Biscuit wrote...

The more I learn about ME3, the more I think this is going to end up being the route of pretty much every problem. Damned Star Wars.

But one the subject of the child's awful lines, I've got wonder just how sheltered it must have been.

I can't believe anyone who lived right on the doorstep of Alliance HQ, who spends there time playing with model alliance fighters, wouldn't know who Commander Shepard, first human Spectre, Savior of the Citadel, Alliance Poster Person, dead person who came back to life, saved Horizon, and was put on trial for wiping out an entire star system, actually is.

I know, panicking and stupid, but even so, most non retarded children would more likely run toward the adult famous for slaughtering aliens in the middle of an alien invasion than argue with them and then instead run to another bunch of armed adults a few minutes later.

Frankly I think humanity is better off with it dying before it had a chance to breed.

Lol i love the way you make shepard sound like Duke Nukem

[Captain Crash]

Your complaining about this?  Wow!!

I dont know whether to laugh or facepalm.  I think I will laugh  

[Mr. Sheepgood]

Eain wrote...

squee913 wrote...

Silly insults aside, you admit that there are kids wise beyond their age, so why can't this kid be one of them? 

I'm gonna quote a book I have on storywriting, written by two professional editors with years of experience in writing. It's called How Not To Write a Novel, if you want to look it up, and they wrote this book as a guide to young writers based on the amount of nonsense they've seen come across their desks over the years.

Why your job is harder than God's.

In real life, no matter how unlikely anything is, if it really happens we do not question that it would happen. Our credulity is not stretched to the breaking point, causing us to stop participating in the world and go looking for another one that is more convincing. Thus, God can work with the most mindbending concidences, far-fetched plot devices and perverse dramatic ironies, never giving a moment's thought to whether or not his audience will buy it. A writer does not have that luxury.

When a writer proposes an unlikely event, we buy it or not based on whether the writer has managed to create a world in which the event is interrelated with everything around it, so it appears to the reader as something that might naturally happen. Unlikely strokes of good fortune do not appear from nowhere;  we arrive at the discovery of the briefcase of cash with some inkling of the chain of events that led to it being in the hotel closet. What might appear to the characters as amazing good luck should for the reader have a certain feeling of inevitability.  We are made to understand that a character behaved in a particular way because of the person she is; she does not suddenly break character to do one thing that is most convenient for the author.

Strokes of good luck and mind-boggling concidences can be used when that is what your story is about. A character whose problems are miraculously resolved when he finds a duffel bag filled with unmarked currency will be received by the reader very differently than a charater whose problems begin when he finds the money.

So, in a good story, the writer strives for a balance of likelihood and contingency: the more unlikely an event, the more deeply rooted and widely integrated it should be into the chapters that came before it. Above all, the writer does not assume that an event in his novel is believable simply because he says so.

Now of course we all have different standards to which we hold the suspension of our disbelief, but the above piece is absolutely true for me. Child has no background, has not been established as a character, he's essentially noone. He doesn't even have a name. So why should I forgive the writer's sloppiness and concede that this is likely a really smart kid, when it is painfully evident that said kid is instead simply the product of poor writing?

You understand my fear that all of ME3 will be full of this kind of thing.

I enjoy reading your posts and I'm bitterly looking foreward your critic of what will sadly be many many cases of awful story-telling in the full game.

 What bugs me is how quick people are to see simplicity or sloppy writing in what is likely one of the most masterful pieces of fiction ever written....that line has such massive amounts of meaning that it is simply amazing trying to see a fraction of its depth. This game truly has the potential to rival KotOR in terms of storytelling quality. 

lol, are you some kind of Bioware bot?

Anyway, It seems like since they rushed the intro, they had to cram all those points a proper intro would convey, into Child. He's the embodiment of things that should be conveyed in a normal paced intro with a good writer, which is why Child fails so badly. He's not human, he's a collection of ideas you can't sympathize with just like that.