351 réponses à ce sujet

[TevinterMagister]

With a light weapons loadout, what's that, 0,5 seconds? It's a bummer yeah and I don't think BW will ever rebalance now as it has gone gold, they did rebalance mages shortly after DAO launch but that was a different team. As for those damn engineers becoming so good lately I'm torn between which class will be my canon for the final act.

[Graunt]

I have no idea how new some of the posters in this thread are to reading or replying to anything ME related, but there's no need to argue with anything Rumination says. Because you'd be wrong.

[Twizz089]

rumination888 wrote...

Twizz089 wrote...

I disagree, the class abilites add spice to the mix but the hybrid classes are still very much hybrids.  The infiltrator for example, combat/tech  takes abilites from both soldiers and engineers, it has ammo powers like the soldier and abillites like the engineer but it fill the role of neither as it cannot deal with armor even though both the soldier and the engineer can, it can however deal with shields.  On insanity it becomes all about balancing your team to have a nice mix off combat/engineer/adept skills, to deal with encounters.  An team of a soldier, adept, and engineer will be able to deal with anything they come across,  You cannot take a team of hybrids and expect the same results unless each hybrid offers what the other does not.

I also disagree with your assessment of what you think each class is best in  The sentinel is in no way the best ranged tank, nor is it the best power nuker.  Also you will be hard pressed arguing that an engineer is better at crowd control then an adept.  And I am not sure what you mean by "field control" and how that is different from crowd control

Infiltrators can't deal with armor? Incinerate says hello. Their main weapon, sniper rifles, also has a huge bonus against armored targets. Maybe you meant barriers? They had trouble with barriers in ME2.... but in ME3, disruptor rounds now deal bonus damage to barriers, so your argument is still invalid.

Everything I listed revolved around unique class powers. Drone >>>>>>> Singularity at crowd control on Insanity, Cloak allows you to get wherever you want on the battlefield without a hitch, hence, field control. If thats still too abstract of a tactical advantage for you, then look at MP. They can cap points and revive teammates, unhindered. Both direct results of field control.

Twizz089 wrote...
Didnt you just say that the Sentinel was the best ranged tank? or were you only speaking of ME2 roles?

ME2 roles.

[

Yes I was speaking of barriers.  But there is the problem, you are speaking of ME2 roles whille I was speaking of ME3 gameplay.  And no drone alone doesnt make the engineer a better cc class then an adept (in ME3).  Even if we compare just the class powers drone vs singularity, singularity is superior in ME3 judging by what the demo has showed us so far. 

Not only do I think singularity giving  a player the abillity to spam throw 2 times in a row is better then a stunning drone, based on the demo biowares answer to making the game harder is not cover all enemies with sheilds, so based on the level we played singularity>drone. 

And if you add all the other abilites it becomes drone, and cryo vs singularity and pull.  Both classes have good cc, but imo adept is better for aoe cc which is for dealing with trash mobs (which based on the demo dont have shields/armor regardless of the difficulty)

Modifié par Twizz089, 19 février 2012 - 01:30 .

[CannotCompute]

Their heavy melee looks lame though. One of the reasons I don't want to play as one.

[rumination888]

Twizz089 wrote...

Yes I was speaking of barriers.  But there is the problem, you are speaking of ME2 roles whille I was speaking of ME3 gameplay.  And no drone alone doesnt make the engineer a better cc class then an adept (in ME3).  Even if we compare just the class powers drone vs singularity, singularity is superior in ME3 judging by what the demo has showed us so far. 

Not only do I think singularity giving  a player the abillity to spam throw 2 times in a row is better then a stunning drone, based on the demo biowares answer to making the game harder is not cover all enemies with sheilds, so based on the level we played singularity>drone. 

And if you add all the other abilites it becomes drone, and cryo vs singularity and pull.  Both classes have good cc, but imo adept is better for aoe cc which is for dealing with trash mobs (which based on the demo dont have shields/armor regardless of the difficulty)

It doesn't matter whether we speak of ME2 or ME3, None of the classes are hybrids in either game. BioWare ditched hybrids in favor of giving every class something unique in ME2. It didn't always pan out the way they hoped(ME2 Adept on Insanity), but the effort they put into differentiating the classes is clear.

As for the Engineer vs. Adept argument...
Drone can CC more enemy types in ME2 than Singularity(by being a decoy). A protected enemy will stop shooting at you when the drone is attacking it. The drone will also seek a new target after its current one dies. Hence, kings of crowd control.

In ME3, Drone was buffed even further so that it can stun and harass even more unprotected enemies with the right upgrades. The fact that there are unprotected enemies on insanity favors the Drone just as much as it favors Singularity, all while retaining its taunting, enemy-seeking nature.

And if you add other abilities in ME3, the Engineer still has better crowd control than the Adept. Overload is now Singularity on steroids. It will rip shields/barriers, deal respectable health damage(yes, it damages health now), can stun/knockdown up to 3 enemies that are very far apart(2-3x the radius of Singularity), and best of all, theres no travel time.

(Overload is ME3's version of ME2 Warp: the power you want to spam in nearly every situation. Infact, in MP, the two cerberus enemies with armor are considered synthetics, so it even deals good damage against the very protection its supposed to be weak against!)

Modifié par rumination888, 19 février 2012 - 02:26 .

[Twizz089]

rumination888 wrote...

Twizz089 wrote...

Yes I was speaking of barriers.  But there is the problem, you are speaking of ME2 roles whille I was speaking of ME3 gameplay.  And no drone alone doesnt make the engineer a better cc class then an adept (in ME3).  Even if we compare just the class powers drone vs singularity, singularity is superior in ME3 judging by what the demo has showed us so far. 

Not only do I think singularity giving  a player the abillity to spam throw 2 times in a row is better then a stunning drone, based on the demo biowares answer to making the game harder is not cover all enemies with sheilds, so based on the level we played singularity>drone. 

And if you add all the other abilites it becomes drone, and cryo vs singularity and pull.  Both classes have good cc, but imo adept is better for aoe cc which is for dealing with trash mobs (which based on the demo dont have shields/armor regardless of the difficulty)

It doesn't matter whether we speak of ME2 or ME3, None of the classes are hybrids in either game. BioWare ditched hybrids in favor of giving every class something unique in ME2. It didn't always pan out the way they hoped(ME2 Adept on Insanity), but the effort they put into differentiating the classes is clear.

As for the Engineer vs. Adept argument...
Drone can CC more enemy types in ME2 than Singularity. A protected enemy will also stop shooting at you when the drone is attacking it. The drone will also seek a new target after its current one dies. Hence, kings of crowd control.

In ME3, Drone was buffed even further so that it can stun and harass even more unprotected enemies with the right upgrades. The fact that there are unprotected enemies on insanity favors the Drone just as much as it favors Singularity, all while retaining its taunting, enemy-seeking nature.

And if you add other abilities in ME3, the Engineer still has better crowd control than the Adept. Overload is now Singularity on steroids. It will rip shields/barriers, deal respectable health damage(yes, it damages health now), can stun/knockdown up to 3 enemies that are very far apart(2-3x the radius of Singularity), and best of all, theres no travel time.

(Overload is ME3's version of ME2 Warp: the power you want to spam in nearly every situation. Infact, in MP, the two cerberus enemies with armor are considered synthetics, so it even deals good damage against the very protection its supposed to be weak against!)

No there are still hybrid classes.  3 characteristic of the classes in ME combat, adept, engineer.  By definition a hybrid would be a class that mixes talents from the other 2 to form its own unique niche, however it cannot perform one role better then the pure class.  Granted, you may for example upgrade a sential to perform more of adept role, but because it doesnt have all the abillites of an adept it will always be a 2nd class adept.  You can make your vanguard more combat orientated, but when it comes to shooting a gun the soldier is better.  Hybrids make up for this by have a little bit of both and being flexable. class talents further define a classes niche but it doesnt mean that class is not a hybrid.

Adept is still better at cc the trash mobs.  Even on insanity more then half of the mobs I came across are trash (I found gold MP to have a different shield to unshielded ratio tho)  Singularity is far superior for dealing with trash mobs because once they are in the air they should be killed almost instanly with throw. If this were ME2 and all the mobs had armor then yes the engineer would be better, but 1 not everyone will play on the highest difficulty and 2 from what I played on the highest difficulty everyone is not runnning around with armor/shields

And overload is not the power you want to spam in nearly every situation, if this was ME2 then yes.  But since the majority of enemies I came across in the demo where not wearing shields the move you want to spam is throw.  Even with overload damaging health, you can almost one shot enemies with a fully upgraded throw, 2 shots at most (and you can cast throw twice in the time it would take to cast one overload) 

[Blodsven]

Decided to start up the ME3 beta just to check the Tech Armor once again, whereupon I noticed some rather strange things.

By all appearance Cryo Blast has a base cast time of 2 sec. It is possible that the M3 Predator pistol actually has a weight that cause the rank 1 values to be invalid, however I feel it is pretty safe to say that this is not the case. Afterall, the recharge speed do not change if you place the one free point in your mastery ability or not.
 
Now, if you do activate Tech Armor then the recharge speed jumps up from 2 sec to 2.73 sec. This is not an 80% increase, but rather a 36.5% increase.  Of course, this might not be a problem since the formula for recharge speed is:
New Value = Base Value at Rank 1 * (1.0 / (1.0 + Sum of all rank bonuses + Dynamic Bonuses))

However, it is still not apparent where the 80% penalty is applied even when Bioware provided the formula. If Tech Armor's penalty is treated like a Dynamic Bonus (like a negative -0.8 value), then the new recharge speed should be 5 times higher than the old, i.e. it should be 10 sec.

Ok, perhaps it becomes more apparent if we fast forward to the M8 Avenger-drop. Cryo Blast's recharge speed jumps up from 2 sec to 2.67 sec when you pick up the assault rifle. If you then activate the Tech Armor, then the recharge speed climbs up to 4.14 sec. This is roughly a 55% increase in recharge speed.

It is still not that apparent, so we fast forward to the over encumbered Shepard that is crawling around with 4 weapons and two npc. Cryo Blast has now a recharge timer of 14.1 sec and when we activate Tech Armor it jumps up to 18.9. This is a 34% penalty, so the penalty peaked when you carried 2 weapons and that was it?!

Ok, as a final test I decided to pump in some points and reduce it from 80% penalty to a "mere" 50% penalty... which resulted in no change what so ever.


Conclusion? Well, to my beer blasted brain it looks like Tech Armor is bugged.

Modifié par Blodsven, 19 février 2012 - 03:01 .

[WaffleCrab]

I finally got my Sentinell to a decent level of 16. And here are my conclusions(Turian sentinel atm, not krogan yet) Even with a 200% recharge buff, Your tech armor has only 2 uses. #1. more power for your other talents. more damage resistance, not as much as you would hope though. Couple of reasons for that. the detonation area is just simply way too small. and simply does way too little damage. Take for example your overload, maxed out with right choices. you can make it hit 3 enemies. or 1 enemy twice and 1 once. within 8 meters of each other. They stay down longer than after getting hit with the tech PoS leather garment. and they take more damage, And you can spam it faster.

Despite this short coming. Sentinels are still an ok class, but even as artillery they suck, I out damaged my lv 16 sent, when i had a lv12 inf. with maxed proximity mines. Sentinels just arent artillery or tanks anymore. They cant be called anything specific, not even jacks of all trades. they are too weak for that.

Which is something that makes me wonder, did bioware even think what they were doing with the sentinel? since They get out damaged, Out tanked, and out gunned by other classes in any turn. The only situation where i find sentinel absolutely stronger than any other class, is taking down the atlas due to the fact he has warp too. Assuming. no one has a cobra missile handy ( 90% of the time they sadly do)

But hey, as long as BW doesnt change how you get exp(everyone getting the total exp.) to individual exp slots. it makes no difference.

End note. R.I.P. Sentinel... You were a fun class and hell of a tank in ME1 and ME2 but EA got their gluttches on you too, An old war horse, is now nothing but a novelty class.

[Graunt]

BrotherWarth wrote...

WaffleCrab wrote...
End note. R.I.P. Sentinel... You were a fun class and hell of a tank in ME1 and ME2 but EA got their gluttches on you too, An old war horse, is now nothing but a novelty class.

What the hell does EA have to do with it? Do you think some EA executive stormed into the Bioware offices and demanded that the Sentinel class in Mass Effect be nerfed?

Probably have as much to do with it playing much more like an actual "shooter" now instead of a Shooter/RPG hybrid, as well as the castration of interesting squad members and the introduction to Jersey Shore Fenix wannabe Vega.  The same people that didn't feel the game was mainstream enough already. The same people that insisted multiplayer was crammed into the game in some form (even though Bioware likes to claim that "they" always wanted multiplayer in the series from the start. ).  Realistically EA probably had little to do with the alterations of the classes, but they were an influence with a lot of stupid changes.

Modifié par Graunt, 20 février 2012 - 12:43 .

[scotkrow]

BrotherWarth knows what's going on. And Graunt, have you not played the demo? In what way are the old squad members castrated. They all appear in the game, a lot of them will join you temporarily, Hudson said no-one is permanent, and they have so much more personality and fleshing out. Also has no one thought about the Sentinel in terms of what it really does, in game you want to round out to be able to have advantage over shields, armor, biotic barrier, and health, the sentinel offers the widest variety in terms of what it can be most effective against. The other classes are more limited. I'm pretty sure the sentinel has all those bases covered, the rest of the classes cover one or two.

[TheLostGenius]

 They are the class for newbs. OMG I get shotz too much I needz to be Sentinel!! 

[rumination888]

scotkrow wrote...
Also has no one thought about the Sentinel in terms of what it really does, in game you want to round out to be able to have advantage over shields, armor, biotic barrier, and health, the sentinel offers the widest variety in terms of what it can be most effective against. The other classes are more limited. I'm pretty sure the sentinel has all those bases covered, the rest of the classes cover one or two.

...for the umpteenth time, the Engineer in ME3 offers the widest variety in terms of what it can be most effective against.

[Devos]

I've held off commenting because I thought if I spent more time on sentinel in MP Tech Armor would make more sense. In the same way that it took a while to get your head around Charge, I thought perhaps once you knew how to use Tech Armor it would be useful but having spent a fair bit of time as a Sentinel it just seems bad. As a quirk of the cool down bonus system if you have either a large bonus or penalty the affect of tech armor on cool down is less pronounced is seems. Even so it's fairly useless, for having it up the damage reduction you receive is fairly worthless for the price you pay and even with the power boost and penalty reduction it's not much of an advantage if any for a power you have sunk 21 points into. The detonation also just isn't that powerful and has a pretty ugly cooldown.

I accept it's a possibility I'm just not using right but for the most part, I'm just not using it. It's meant to be the classes unique power, at the centre of how you play your class, but it's a power I rarely use.

It's very late but this is definitely something I hope gets fixed because it is way out of line with the other class unique powers.

Modifié par Devos, 20 février 2012 - 01:11 .

[scotkrow]

Rumination888, I'm guessing you are referring to, fire, cryo and overload... Cryo isn't effective against barriers like they say it is. All classes are good against health. The Engineer is good against shields and armor, the sentinel covers all the bases, barriers, sheilds, armor. Literally all of them.

[scotkrow]

Well that's MP, in campaign the Sentinel will the single most easiest to play class, because you make your squad mates the heavy damage dealers, and you take out the shields, barriers and armor then they wipe out the health. In MP the number of powers you get is to limiting to be used to their full potential, they should just let us pick any three powers related to the class that we have. So a sentinel can have overload, warp and incinerate.

[Blodsven]

scotkrow wrote...

Well that's MP, in campaign the Sentinel will the single most easiest to play class, because you make your squad mates the heavy damage dealers, and you take out the shields, barriers and armor then they wipe out the health. In MP the number of powers you get is to limiting to be used to their full potential, they should just let us pick any three powers related to the class that we have. So a sentinel can have overload, warp and incinerate.

I do know that Overload and Disruption Ammo works against both barriers and shields now, so Soldiers, Engineers and Infiltrators all shine when it comes to peeling away the defenses. Most likely they will even do it better since they will not suffer from a recharge speed penalty.

By all appearance, the best way to play the Sentinel is to skip Tech Armor.

[Taleroth]

scotkrow wrote...

Well that's MP, in campaign the Sentinel will the single most easiest to play class, because you make your squad mates the heavy damage dealers, and you take out the shields, barriers and armor then they wipe out the health. In MP the number of powers you get is to limiting to be used to their full potential, they should just let us pick any three powers related to the class that we have. So a sentinel can have overload, warp and incinerate.

Unless they've drastically improved companion AI, you can't rely on companions. They liked to stand up into suppressing fire in ME2. Way too much of my current Hardcore run is spent with all my teammates dead and me having to resort to overload and warp pop-a-mole.

Modifié par Taleroth, 20 février 2012 - 06:32 .

[scotkrow]

Blodsven, I'm not saying anything about tech armor, I'm just arguing that the Sentinel isn't useless or nerfed too much like everyone is saying, it's a support class, it's like a controller in Dnd, it's not meant to be in the fray. And I don't konw what Taleroths system is smoking, I'm playing ME2 on insanity and my squad is a gift to me, without them I'd be so screwed half the time, I hate miranda but I keep her on hand often cause she's basically a sentinel and with me playing a soldier that's invaluable to me. I spend more time hiding and letting my squad kill everything than anything else on insanity.

[Twizz089]

BrotherWarth wrote...

But the Engineer has the best CC ability on the game, along with its damage capabilities. In MP Engineers are ridiculously useful. A whole team of Engineers wouldn't be advisable, but 2 is phenomenal. The only time I had a team good enough to easily beat a Gold challenge our makeup was 2 Engineers, 1 Adept(me) and 1 Infiltrator. We all moves together(especially on goal-oriented waves), keeping close at all times. I took the lead(maxed out Singularity), the Engineers behind me and the Infiltrator in the rear. That made the whole challenge feel like Bronze.
On the flip side, I've never made it far into a Gold challenge with a Sentinel on the team who actually uses Tech Armor.

The first time I beat Gold I was a sentinel using tech armor and I had more points then anyone on the team. 

When it comes to the power abilites, tech powers are the best at  stripping away defense, the biotic powers however, are the best at killing once all the defenses are gone and killing the trash mobs that have no defenses.

In my experience the only class that can keep up with my sentinel in terms of damage have been snipers.

In MP the engineer is the best at handling defense but it cannot keep up with the sentinel in terms of killing ability because of the sentinel's biotics.  The advantage the engineer has in handling defenses will however be  almost a none factor in SP when the sentinel gains overload (turian setinel is a very bad class to play) Then the  argument for "who is better at handling defenses" becomes which is better warp or incinerate.  I would pick incinerate

[Blodsven]

scotkrow wrote...

Blodsven, I'm not saying anything about tech armor, I'm just arguing that the Sentinel isn't useless or nerfed too much like everyone is saying, it's a support class, it's like a controller in Dnd, it's not meant to be in the fray. And I don't konw what Taleroths system is smoking, I'm playing ME2 on insanity and my squad is a gift to me, without them I'd be so screwed half the time, I hate miranda but I keep her on hand often cause she's basically a sentinel and with me playing a soldier that's invaluable to me. I spend more time hiding and letting my squad kill everything than anything else on insanity.

I do not argue that the ME3 Sentinel is horribly broken. I'm certain you can beat the game with it.

However, I find it quite sad that you're better off ignoring their unique class ability. I pray that some clever chap can prove me wrong and tell me how stellar it is to manually detonate Tech Armor, alternatively how extremely valuable it is to have 40% damage reduction...

...but currently the only thing I can see is the power recharge penalty, the far lower detonation radius and the lack of shield-recharge.

[scotkrow]

But all the classes have two unique abilities now, the old one from ME2 and a totally new one. Plus, how effective an ability is depends completely on your play style, not on the ability itself.