479 réponses à ce sujet

[MDT1]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

MDT1 wrote...

-You do realize that termal sensors detect termal radiation which is another form of electromagnetic radiation like light or radio waves or X-ray. That we can see the sun from our planet suggest that electromagnetic radiation doesn't need matter to be transfered.
-Newer stealth tech gets better and better too...
-And well, infra red is a form of termal radiation, so if reapers woul only see infra red and the normandy has an anti termal detection tech reapers wouldn't see it.
And no, I just postiulate reapers might not see the need for optical sensors at all.

- and? You're proving my point for me. I was merely demonstrating the difference between space and atmosphere. Evne wihout any atmosphere or matter to transmit stuff trough, you cna be seen in space. In atmospehre, sincve you will be passing trough mattr - and thus interactign with it - you are even more visible.

- radar stealth systems rely on scattering the radar beam so it doesn't return back to the radar dish. For that sharp angles are required. The fighter has to be a special shape (which Normandy isn't B.t.w. Ther'es no way Normadny is a radar stealth ship). Even with radar absorbing paint, stealth only work from specific angles and at larger distances.
New, focused radrs use a narrower beam. While they cover a smalelr search area, they are very effective at seeing stealth fighters.

- Reapers have optical sensors. It's too stupid to not have them, given how usefull they are. Pretty much any space-faring vessel should have some. And he have today cammeras that can see in wide spectrums. There's no way you could hide Normadny from optical detection - NONE. Especially not in atmosphere.

-and you just swichted your point? It was about heat detection. If the normandy doesnt emit thermal radiation there is no reason why it should heat up matter int the atmosphere. To heat up the atmosphere the normandy must be hotter, if its hottter it emits more thermal radiation, if it emits thermal radiation at all, it would be perfectly visible in space (for thermal sensors) as space is quite cold if your not heated up by suns(down to minus 270 degree celsius). Expect your mysterious atmospheric self heat from some posts before comes into lay here. But as I live in europe and have whinter now it doesn't seem to me like everything heats up itself yust because its surrounded by air when I look out of the window.

-Again, you assume the absence of technical progress for 200 years. While its logical possible to upgrade stealth tech till the reflection dissappears in "background noise" it's logically not possible to detect a signal that isn't there anymore.

-no reapers should have optical sensors, and if I had build them they would have optical sensors that could see everything a human sees and more. But as neither you nor I have build a reaper, we can't say the have some for sure. And again, that we can see the normandy doesn't mean it's visible in the whole spectrum. There are already prototype tanks that are somewhat invisible for infra red. Also while it might be logical for reapers to build them selfs so that they aqre able to see the whole spectrum, its still not given. Look at insects that cant see red as example. Might be the first reaper species saw only infra red and didn't bother with our spectrum.

Modifié par MDT1, 17 février 2012 - 08:50 .

[iSpitfireee]

Reaper IFF

/thread

[JSLfromBx]

Repers can see the Normandy cloaked, plain as day that's the whole point of ME2 intro and how the Normandy SR1 got blown up.

And if that wasn't enough in late ME2 when attacking the geth base joker says something like" Are you sure commander, the geth could just look out the window and see us we're not invisible" (not an exact quote)

[Tony_Knightcrawler]

ediskrad327 wrote...

you don't die in the first 10 minutes of the game? clearly this was made to appeal to the Call of Duty crowd, PREORDER CANCELLED![/i][i]

Yuu die in the first 10 minutes of Mass Effect 2... LOL


CLEARLY we are all underestimating the Normandy's stealth systems. :-P As far as ships in orbit, apparently they all came down at specific locations; they weren't evenly spaced. How else would London already be under attack before Toronto knew what the threat was? Which makes sense, because otherwise it'd be like one or two Reapers per city. :-P

And BTW, Star Wars Eps. 4-6 ARE masterpieces.

Modifié par Tony_Knightcrawler, 17 février 2012 - 11:09 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

What other 100 warships?

Aee you forgettign it was hoverign stationary for an eternity?

Well not literally hundreds of warships out there but there apparently were many others. Such as the cruiser that gets blown up.

Long before the normandy shows up. What other warships? We dont' see or hear any other.

[Lotion Soronarr]

MDT1 wrote...
-and you just swichted your point? It was about heat detection. If the normandy doesnt emit thermal radiation there is no reason why it should heat up matter int the atmosphere. To heat up the atmosphere the normandy must be hotter, if its hottter it emits more thermal radiation, if it emits thermal radiation at all, it would be perfectly visible in space (for thermal sensors) as space is quite cold if your not heated up by suns(down to minus 270 degree celsius). Expect your mysterious atmospheric self heat from some posts before comes into lay here. But as I live in europe and have whinter now it doesn't seem to me like everything heats up itself yust because its surrounded by air when I look out of the window.

Tecnicly, all it has to do is move fast enough. Friction causes heat.
Also, as I said, moving trough atmosphere causes the Normandy to interact wiht the particels in the air.

-Again, you assume the absence of technical progress for 200 years. While its logical possible to upgrade stealth tech till the reflection dissappears in "background noise" it's logically not possible to detect a signal that isn't there anymore.

And detection equipment will not advance? Seriously, the reapers are more advanced. A LOT more advanced.
You won't be hiding from them.

No, it is not logicyl possible to upgrade stealth tech to become completely invisible. Read up on how radar stealth systems work.
Normandy ISN'T a stealth ship. It's not shaped like one. Even ifit were one, it howers with a open bay door.

-no reapers should have optical sensors, and if I had build them they would have optical sensors that could see everything a human sees and more. But as neither you nor I have build a reaper, we can't say the have some for sure. And again, that we can see the normandy doesn't mean it's visible in the whole spectrum. There are already prototype tanks that are somewhat invisible for infra red. Also while it might be logical for reapers to build them selfs so that they aqre able to see the whole spectrum, its still not given. Look at insects that cant see red as example. Might be the first reaper species saw only infra red and didn't bother with our spectrum.

Yes, they do. You know why? Because optical sensors are part of a complete sensor suite.
We put them them on sattelties. We put them on space shuttles.

You expect your enemy to completely ignore an entire range of detection equipment? Seriousy? Wait, how did Sovereign see you when he took over Sarens body? Could it be because it had EYES?

your whole argument is "Duuh. Reapers are stupid and technologcly inept":pinched:

[Ghost Rider LSOV]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
You expect your enemy to completely ignore an entire range of detection equipment? Seriousy? Wait, how did Sovereign see you when he took over Sarens body? Could it be because it had EYES?

Smell.

Seriously though, Sovereign even saw Shepard when he appeared as a hologram. "You are not Saren."

But the reaper that shoots the shuttles down is not of Sovereign's size/class, perhaps it's something less-advanced?

Modifié par Ghost Rider LSOV, 17 février 2012 - 11:28 .

[Fugiz]

and I quote "you fight against inevitabilty, dust struggling against cosmic winds". see Harby doesnt see Shep and his butter ship as a threat in fact he likes a good challenge, besides villains do this all the time. Maybe one day a "How ME3 should have ended" video on YT will satisfy you.

Anderson: Go Shepard, get help from the Coun-..Boom Normandy is blown to bits and the Ilusive Man saves humanity

[Allattar1]

Has anyone suggested that Shephard is actually indoctrinated?

hehe.

[Lord of Mu]

Oh that's easy, it was tea time. The Reapers were too busy making the tea to be bothered shooting the Normandy out of the sky.

Sounds better than, "the Normandy has main character syndrome".

[Ghost Rider LSOV]

Fugiz wrote...
Boom Normandy is blown to bits and the Ilusive Man saves humanity

And with a:
"I told you not to turn your back on me, Shepard."

[DraCZeQQ]

Since its been few pages, lets recap ...

Reaper IFF = a thingie, thats broadcast an encrypted ID of that particular Reaper, nothing else ... thats why omega mass relay recognised it (since its there since the reapers built it, and is programmed to recognise reaper ID, but is not part of any hive mind / active network, to update a status of a particular reaper) ... Collectors led by a Reaper (Harbinger) werent fooled by the IFF, coz they know that IFF code is not valid ...
And im pretty sure that the real Reapers have their databases up to date about who is alive and who is lost, who is dead ... what ID is really a friend and what ID is highly suspicious ...

So if Normandy would actually transmit the Reaper IFF signal, they would make even easier target

Also current stealth technology (even if they could use it in atmosphere) doesnt work against Reaper detection technology (no reason why it should; imagine a medieval knight trying to hide behind a tree vs. modern thermovision)

EDIT: and for all the "Why the fck does it matter, its a fiction", the reason is simple ... the problem isnt the fiction, the problem is that even a wildest fiction has rules (lore) and if the story wanna be coherent, it needs to make sense in the boundaries of these rules (lore) ... ie. if the lore says reapers are superadvanced sentien being, that wiped countless of civilisations without breaking a sweat ... well they suddenly dont go retard when they meet Sheppard ... if you make them almost omnipotent in the lore, well they must act like that ALL THE TIME ... unless there is a damn good reason based again on something in the rulebook (lore)

Modifié par DraCZeQQ, 17 février 2012 - 12:05 .

[Goneaviking]

JSLfromBx wrote...

Repers can see the Normandy cloaked, plain as day that's the whole point of ME2 intro and how the Normandy SR1 got blown up.

And if that wasn't enough in late ME2 when attacking the geth base joker says something like" Are you sure commander, the geth could just look out the window and see us we're not invisible" (not an exact quote)

Normandy 1 was being tracked before it engaged its stealth device at the beginning of ME2.

[Goneaviking]

tonnactus wrote...

Itkovian wrote...

See, there's plenty of reasons why it made it out, we cannot assume a plot hole when such explanations exist.

It doesnt matter if the player/reader could find explainations for certain situation in the game by himself. If someone has "to take out those things out of his arse" without even any possible hint what could be true  in a book or game,this is bad writing and a plothole.

If it's a manufactured problem like this one, then no it's not a plothole and not even necessarily bad writing. 

It's entirely possible that the Normandy being so close to a reaper was the result of a error between scripting and animation that somehow no one noticed in time to correct. Perhaps it did happen intentionally but the writers felt that either/both the stealth system and iff was enough to justify it but didn't feel the need to explain these things again since they were in the previous games and will presumably be referred to in the codex and perhaps inside the full game.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Goneaviking wrote...
If it's a manufactured problem like this one, then no it's not a plothole and not even necessarily bad writing. 

It's entirely possible that the Normandy being so close to a reaper was the result of a error between scripting and animation that somehow no one noticed in time to correct. Perhaps it did happen intentionally but the writers felt that either/both the stealth system and iff was enough to justify it but didn't feel the need to explain these things again since they were in the previous games and will presumably be referred to in the codex and perhaps inside the full game.

There is nothing "manufactured" about this.

It's sitting there in plain sight, painfully obvious to anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together

The bility of humans to deny reality and put thing on a flawless pedistal never ceases to amaze me.

[Goneaviking]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...
If it's a manufactured problem like this one, then no it's not a plothole and not even necessarily bad writing. 

It's entirely possible that the Normandy being so close to a reaper was the result of a error between scripting and animation that somehow no one noticed in time to correct. Perhaps it did happen intentionally but the writers felt that either/both the stealth system and iff was enough to justify it but didn't feel the need to explain these things again since they were in the previous games and will presumably be referred to in the codex and perhaps inside the full game.

There is nothing "manufactured" about this.

It's sitting there in plain sight, painfully obvious to anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together

The bility of humans to deny reality and put thing on a flawless pedistal never ceases to amaze me.

Oh wow, there was a mistake in the animations.

The world just ended.

[Ghost Rider LSOV]

Goneaviking wrote...
Oh wow, there was a mistake in the animations.

The world just ended.

No, it ended when the dreadnaught had a cruiser model.  

[Lotion Soronarr]

Mistake in the animation? No, mistake in the script and writing.

Because there's no way you can miss something like that.

[Goneaviking]

Ghost Rider LSOV wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...
Oh wow, there was a mistake in the animations.

The world just ended.

No, it ended when the dreadnaught had a cruiser model.  

There were two mistakes in the animations? 

SOMEONE MUST DIE!!!

[Nordicus]

dreman9999 wrote...

This question is like asking why Sovergin never blow up the normady while leaving Virmire

Simple: Sovereign didn't see Shepard as a threat at this point. He had merely delayed Saren's plans.

In ME3, the Reapers have seen Shepard as a major hindrance for over 2 years. Harbinger knew him by name.

[Goneaviking]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Mistake in the animation? No, mistake in the script and writing.

Because there's no way you can miss something like that.

Apparently you can, because I didn't notice it until it was pointed out. But then I just played the demo to have a good time.

[Ghost Rider LSOV]

Goneaviking wrote...
But then I just played the demo to have a good time.

Heresy! Playing games for fun! Unheard of!

[Stallownage]

Ever find yourself in a situation in life that you don't think much of at the time and you just get on with it, but when you go back and consider it afterwards you realise you took a hell of a risk and things could easily have gone down the pan? And that if you'd been thinking more clearly at the time you would have never even put yourself in that situation, because it was so risky? But somehow, by sheer good fortune, you got away with it?

That's how I choose to look at things like this, albeit they are on a grander scale. Of course the odds say that if you hover for that long, so close to danger, you should be blown to kingdom come. But then you would also think that getting shot in the head would kill you, and indeed it does for the majority. But there's always those lucky few who get away with it, and only realise just how close they came when they consider it afterwards.

And let's face it, this is Shepard. He's pretty much made an occupation out of being the luckiest motherf***** in the galaxy for two games straight, I don't see why anybody would suddenly choose to question it now.

[Nordicus]

It's not even a question of whether you need to be having a bad time to see that plothole.

When the Reaper came to destroy those smaller ships, I was "Oh **** Joker, step on it, the Reapers noticed us! GOGOGOGOGO- wait, why are we not hurrying? Why is that Reaper not even giving us a good chase off this planet? Aww c'mon "

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

So the conclusion is:

1) Pure Luck
2) Bioware's Determinism
3) No other option is possible.