9 réponses à ce sujet

[MouseNo4]

Ive read a few websites that discuss the alter state Alistair and Leliana can change to if you ''harden'' them.

Can someone please explain IN PLAIN BLOODY ENGLISH what it means and whether i should care.

http://greywardens.c...ude-adjustment/ 

http://dragonage.wik...m/wiki/Hardened 

At first i thought it was similar to Mass Effect 2, where, if you speak often enough to your companions - they will give you a mission of a more personal nature specific to that companion. Doing this makes that companion ''loyal'' and thus their survival in the final mission is all but guaranteed.

Upon reading the above websites... and i mean i read the 2 sites top to bottom and i am utterly confused.

I have been playing this game and choosing options that my character WOULD choose based on the information at hand, and what i felt was right. An example was the recent trip to the Urn of Sacred Ashes. A cult leader, Kolgrim wanted to defile the ashes with the blood a full size dragon. I would personally never allow anyone to do this regardless - so i ended up fighting him.

Another would be Leliana's faith in the Maker. This is a fantasy world, and thus the rules of real life dont apply. With that said, there could in fact BE a real Maker - an all powerful god in this fantasy world. So i would never dissuade Leliana from her faith.  

What exactly is a hardened Alistair/Leliana and given the information ive already put forward, should i care about it and just choose the dialogue option i feel is right regardless of the meta game outcome?

[MouseNo4]

For additional info, i have just completed Alistair's personal quest and spoken to his sister Goldanna. I chose dialogue options that supported him and upon leaving the house, I chose the option that instilled a bit of support in his future as king. I have no idea if this.. ''hardened'' him or not and im not sure if i want to change who he is.

[Corker]

There isn't a 'right' or 'wrong' way to handle the hardening.

What hardening is, is an opportunity for the Warden to influence the NPC's character development. It doesn't radically change who they are, but it does affect it.

Alistair, for instance, has been raised to put his duties and obligations (especially to Arl Eamon) first, over any personal desires he might have. If you harden him, he begins to look out a little more for his self-interest. He does *not* become an instantly jaded cynic.

Leliana is at a crossroads. She misses certain parts of her bardic lifestyle, but also believes strongly in the Chantry teachings she has adopted. The Warden can reassure her that it's okay to want to be James Bond, or the Warden can encourage her to leave that life behind. Hardened Leliana is still very pious, but she will be a *little* more morally flexible in certain situations.

There are some in-game effects I won't get into as part of a no-spoiler forum, but all the options are dramatically interesting and can result in a good, fun game. (Depending on your Warden and his/her relationship with the NPCs, they effects may not even really be an issue, too.)

[MouseNo4]

I just encountered the worst design flaw for this ''hardening''. At least as far as im concerned. Hardened Alistair does accept a marriage with Anora whereas unhardened does not. W T F. Had to enter dev mode to fix this little problem.

Just to be 100% sure, i read up about the alterations to Leliana this stupid hardening does to her. Thankfully the unhardened state, which i only just chose for her has very little effect on the main or her story. No hacking required.

Found out about a really idiotic bug with this ''affection'' system where a romance 'stalls' if you boost it too fast. For example, i gave Leliana a gift that made her affection rise that last portion to 100. Little did i know that was a huge mistake as i could NOT progress her romance until i gave her terrible gifts to lower it back down, speak to her a few times, then raise it back up.

W T F. Who designed this.

[caradoc2000]

MouseNo4 wrote...

Hardened Alistair does accept a marriage with Anora whereas unhardened does not.

Not true. I've had my unhardened Alistair marry Anora in several playthroughs.

Modifié par caradoc2000, 17 février 2012 - 06:05 .

[MouseNo4]

caradoc2000 wrote...

MouseNo4 wrote...

Hardened Alistair does accept a marriage with Anora whereas unhardened does not.

Not true. I've had my unhardened Alistair marry Anora in several playthroughs.

'

Ive probably read it wrong. It is completely understandable considering the plot is so convoluted and extremely easy to make irreparable mistakes according to a very innocent and mundane dialogue. So unless you plan to hit quick save before every single dialogue - or worse, full normal save to ensure you dont overwrite - its inevitable to make mistakes unless you already KNOW the outcome .. and every outcome possible. 

Dont get me wrong, the game itself is half decent. The story is engaging and the combat is just ok. Just so complex and complicated its not funny. 

Just as an example - I wanted to romance Leliana with my female human mage. Easy right? Nope, if you make the mistake of giving her gifts too quickly, your screwed as the romance will stall and you will not be able to continue unless you reverse your gift giving affection. 

I wanted the Landsmeet outcome to be this - Anora and Alistair marry, Loghain is spared and performs the sacrificial final blow at the end of the game so MY character can then live and Loghain is redeemed. BUT in order to do this you need to have known what hardening is, how to do it, when to do it and to whom. Problem is, there is no way i could know that and the only reason i do, is because i wanted to find a way for MY outcome to happen. For it to happen - i had to hack the game to allow it. :/

Modifié par MouseNo4, 17 février 2012 - 09:50 .

[nightscrawl]

MouseNo4 wrote...

caradoc2000 wrote...

MouseNo4 wrote...

Hardened Alistair does accept a marriage with Anora whereas unhardened does not.

Not true. I've had my unhardened Alistair marry Anora in several playthroughs.

'

Ive probably read it wrong. It is completely understandable considering the plot is so convoluted and extremely easy to make irreparable mistakes according to a very innocent and mundane dialogue.

You probably don't want to see this response, but Bioware tries to make games where choices are important, just like in real life. In real life, if you have royally pissed off one of your friends, there is certainly a chance that he will never want to speak to you again. The same applies to a friend going through a crisis in their lives. It can change who they are and how they see the world. This is essentially what Hardening is in DAO. Alistair has a crisis moment in his life, and because you are there as his friend, you have the opportunity to affect how he responds to the situation, which in turn affects his character development and the choices that HE gets to make as a person later on in the game.

Reading your desired outcome, I can understand how you would be frustrated, as the only way to achieve it is to play the meta-game and plan out everything ahead of time. However, since it is your first play though, I would encourage you to just play it as normal and watch the story unfold. Then if you like it enough to play again, go ahead and use the wiki to get whatever results you want, since you already know how the story works.

[Corker]

FWIW, I believe the Leliana/gifts/stalled romance issue is a bug, and isn't intentional. Since you're on PC, you might check dragonagenexus.com for mods. I know there are mods to fix various bugs for some of the other romances; there may be one for Leliana as well.

[Ferretinabun]

MouseNo4 wrote...

caradoc2000 wrote...

MouseNo4 wrote...

Hardened Alistair does accept a marriage with Anora whereas unhardened does not.

Not true. I've had my unhardened Alistair marry Anora in several playthroughs.

'

Ive probably read it wrong. It is completely understandable considering the plot is so convoluted and extremely easy to make irreparable mistakes according to a very innocent and mundane dialogue. So unless you plan to hit quick save before every single dialogue - or worse, full normal save to ensure you dont overwrite - its inevitable to make mistakes unless you already KNOW the outcome .. and every outcome possible. 

Dont get me wrong, the game itself is half decent. The story is engaging and the combat is just ok. Just so complex and complicated its not funny. 

Just as an example - I wanted to romance Leliana with my female human mage. Easy right? Nope, if you make the mistake of giving her gifts too quickly, your screwed as the romance will stall and you will not be able to continue unless you reverse your gift giving affection. 

I wanted the Landsmeet outcome to be this - Anora and Alistair marry, Loghain is spared and performs the sacrificial final blow at the end of the game so MY character can then live and Loghain is redeemed. BUT in order to do this you need to have known what hardening is, how to do it, when to do it and to whom. Problem is, there is no way i could know that and the only reason i do, is because i wanted to find a way for MY outcome to happen. For it to happen - i had to hack the game to allow it. :/

To be fair, yes, the game is pretty damn convoluted. Though I for one think that's a good thing. I love the many ways each playthrough can pan out.

As for bugs and plot flags misfiring, yes that is extremely annoying. (The romance one you pointed out is exclusive to Leliana, btw) Fortunately some wonderful people have heroically created several mods which fix many of the errors in the game. I particularly recommend:

http://dragonage.nex...file.php?id=928

(which includes a fix for the Leliana romance problem)

and

http://dragonage.nex...ile.php?id=1120

...for plot flags and dialogue tweaks. Together they sort out a LOT of bugs and lines firing inappropriately.

Also,

http://dragonage.nex...ile.php?id=1601

...fixes quite a lot combat bugs. It does also include a couple of curious tweaks, such as helmets disappearing when not in combat and loot of killed enemies automatically appearing in your inventory, but you can remove these easily if they aren't to your taste.

They might not be completely exhaustive, but between them I think the game runs pretty much as intended. If you're on a PC, they're must-haves.

[MouseNo4]

A lot of those mods i have seen already when i went searching for solutions. I have used the dog slot (even with the Zevran personal mission bug, which i managed to force load fix), Sacred Ashes Leliana appearance mod (not sure why she looks so different to the trailer featuring her but i guess she was made before the trailer was finished) and a number of dev console tweaks.

I achieved the ending i desired greatly. Is this game really amazing? Yes. It is a game that will remain close to my heart. Will i ever play it a second time? NO EFFIN WAY. I will now play the DLC and once that is complete, i will likely never install this game ever again.