44 réponses à ce sujet

[fkirenicus]

I've read a lot about these two, and have the impression that they have clear views on how the dwarven society should be.
Where can this info be found? Do I need to play both the dwarf commoner and dwarf noble origins to actually learn what these two dudes stand for?
Am in my first playthrough, and cannot find any clear/decisive info on which of them to choose... And that is quite frustrating.
It's note like I want to put a homicidal maniac on the throne just to get the "good" dwarf ending. 

[Buddhess75]

Harrowmont basicaly wants to keep dwarven society as it is, he wants to keep their traditions alive and strong.



Bhelen wants to bring Orzammar foward, getting rid of some of the traditions. Bhelen wants to give people the chance to prove themselves over being forevermore stuck to their caste for example.



thats basicaly it

[Haasth]

Yep. Harrowmont stands for tradition and isolation.

Bhelen stands for progression and change.

[Aldandil]

Harrowmont is somewhat noble, or at least honorbound, while Bhelen is more "pragmatic". I was happy siding with Bhelen when playing as a Dalish elf. I figured that any outsider who sees dwarven society for the first time would support the candidate that seems interested in changing it, no matter what kind of person he was.

[fkirenicus]

Yeah, I know.... :-)
But I want to know where I can find this info myself.

If my elf mage can come across this info it would give her more basis on which of them she should choose.
The point is: Is there someone in Orzammar that can give this info in my current elf mage game - or do I need to play the dwarven origins to learn about the policies of Harrowmont and Bhelen?

The only one I've found that talks about this in more than one-liners is Lord Helmi or some such at Tapster's, but he doesn't elaborate on the subject that much.

Modifié par fkirenicus, 24 novembre 2009 - 01:01 .

[ComTrav]

Different NPCs will give a (distorted) perspective.



There's a merchant near, but not in, Dust Town who is pretty pro-Bhelen.



I think there's a lady near the entrance to the main town who is more pro-Harrowmont.

A lot of the people you talk to don't seem to care one way or another so long as it's settled.



I think it's actually intentionally a little opaque for non-dwarf characters, to give them a feeling that they're messing around with a society that they don't know and is not theirs, and in an 'election' it's often hard to discern the truth of what each candidate will do as ruler. (You might vote for someone promising Hope and Change, and a year later he hasn't fixed the recession despite having the Anvil of the Void.)

[fkirenicus]

ComTrav wrote...

Different NPCs will give a (distorted) perspective.

There's a merchant near, but not in, Dust Town who is pretty pro-Bhelen.

I think there's a lady near the entrance to the main town who is more pro-Harrowmont.
A lot of the people you talk to don't seem to care one way or another so long as it's settled.

I think it's actually intentionally a little opaque for non-dwarf characters, to give them a feeling that they're messing around with a society that they don't know and is not theirs, and in an 'election' it's often hard to discern the truth of what each candidate will do as ruler. (You might vote for someone promising Hope and Change, and a year later he hasn't fixed the recession despite having the Anvil of the Void.)

Yeah, I 've talked to both of them. However, only the merchant has a "lasting" dialog in the sense that I can talk to him about these matters more than once - the pro-Harrowmont woman can only be talked to once (or I messed up when I talked to her first), and that was 3-4 days (real time) ago - so I don't remember much about what she said. 
What I can gather from the merchant is that Bhelen wants to be more to the surface world, which in itself is a good thing. But his motivation is that of gold, so no wonder he wants to support Bhelen.
There is nothing he says that makes me convinced Bhelen wants to end the caste system.

As I've said, from what I can gather Bhelen actually has more support than Harrowmont - despite the fact that the Grey Warden wins the Proving grounds for Harrowmont. That is a pretty strong indication that Bhelen is the king of choice for most of the dwarves - and that is the main reason I would grant the crown to him.

Modifié par fkirenicus, 24 novembre 2009 - 01:16 .

[Solo80]

Of course, choosing the Dwarf Noble origin, like me, there's just no way you'll ever even consider supporting Bhelen. That double-crossing bastard's head had a long overdue run-in with my battle hammer. Made a very satisfying *crunch*, too...

[ComTrav]

Solo80 wrote...

Of course, choosing the Dwarf Noble origin, like me, there's just no way you'll ever even consider supporting Bhelen. That double-crossing bastard's head had a long overdue run-in with my battle hammer. Made a very satisfying *crunch*, too...

Yes, I was the same.

You will find in the end that your vengeance is bittersweet.

[specter7237]

fkirenicus wrote...

I've read a lot about these two, and have the impression that they have clear views on how the dwarven society should be.
Where can this info be found? Do I need to play both the dwarf commoner and dwarf noble origins to actually learn what these two dudes stand for?
Am in my first playthrough, and cannot find any clear/decisive info on which of them to choose... And that is quite frustrating.
It's note like I want to put a homicidal maniac on the throne just to get the "good" dwarf ending. 

This kind of aggrevated me as well, as we cannot simply go up to Bhelen/Harrowmont supporters to find out what they stand for.  Eventually you learn what theyre about though as others have already stated.  One thing to keep in mind is Bhelen's tendency to use unethical means of achieving his goals, while Harrowmont is mostly playing fair ( I mean aside from trying to usurp the crown. But he has his reasons).  So if youre playing a "good" character Harrowmont might seem like the more righteous choice.

[KnightofPhoenix]

To add on what was said. In addition to the progressive vs conservative part, we must also take into account the despotic vs aristocratic aspect.

In Montesquieu's Spirit of the Laws, or Tocqueville's democracy in America, they says that the first thing a despot does is weaken the aristocracy. A populist despot is the one who does so by allying with the people or traders / middle class. And usually, despots are not favorable to tradition. That's Bhelen. He dissolves the assembly and becomes absolute ruler, with a very weak nobility that cannot opppose him. This power allows him to change Orzammar, for the better. Bhelen is the typical progessive / enlightened populist despot.

Harrowmont on the otherhand is the Monarch that is cheked by the nobility. He is a conservative in every sense of the word and an isolationist. He respects tradition, he does not hold absolute power and he does not waeken the elective aspect of the monarchy. Yet, he represents stagnation and the oppression of the dwarven people by their own unchanging tradition. Harrowmont is the conservative elected monarch supported by the Aristocracy.

I usually prefer an aristocratic form of government and not a one man rule. However, there are exceptions, where a one man rule is the best form of government. Orzammar is one such case where I would support the despot against the arisotracy.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 novembre 2009 - 03:20 .

[Dark83]

specter7237 wrote...
 So if youre playing a "good" character Harrowmont might seem like the more righteous choice.

Unless your "good" character is disgusted by the Caste system, of course.

Modifié par Dark83, 24 novembre 2009 - 03:23 .

[tmp7704]

Aldandil wrote...

I was happy siding with Bhelen when playing as a Dalish elf. I figured that any outsider who sees dwarven society for the first time would support the candidate that seems interested in changing it, no matter what kind of person he was.

Interesting. For my elf it came down rather to the matter of trust -- she was only there to get troops for the war. Being a manipulative rogue she could see quite easily Bhelen to be much like her, i.e. likely to double-cross anyone for personal benefits. And so she did not wish to support someone who might in the end refuse to provide the promised support. For the same reason it didn't seem smart to try and mess with dwarf society at all -- a nation in middle of revolution isn't exactly in best position to obey to old treaties.

There was also a comment (biased of course but nevertheless) about Harrowmont being very efficient and concerned about the way to utilize his troops while Bhelen was to be more about "personal glory in victory and nothing but victory" no matter the cost. And my warden didn't think she's in position where being wasteful with her forces would do any good.

And finally, coming from the alienage origin she had her share of experience with spoiled children of nobles and the ways they'd come to act. So she'd trust Bhelen as far as she could toss him, and it's not like she could toss a dwarf in massive plate very far...

[ComTrav]

I like this choice (and the Anvil) because it's one of the more ambiguous in the game. There's no running to the Circle of Magi so we don't have to kill the kid OR the Arlessa, here. You have the manipulative scumbag or the weak king.



On the other hand, I can't help but feel Orzammer gets the shaft.The elves et al get their happily-ever-after compromise solutions. It's just tough to be a dwarf.



Maybe I'm just bitter my short-sighted quest for revenge against Bhelen brought ruin to dwarvenkind. Hopefully one of my sons will sort it out, though the may end up fighting amongst each other. ("Aeducan: A Tragedy in Three Acts")

[fkirenicus]

Well, I think my mind's made up.

If Bhelen is the best the dwarves can come up with for their society to prosper anew, they don't deserve anything else than isolation and stagnation under Harrowmont. In fact, I'm quite certain that the overworlders are better off with the dwarves shut down in their stony halls.

Damn it, if Branka and Bhelen (and partially Oghren) are considered "heroes" by the dwarves, then to Davy Jones (or the Darkspawn) with the lot of them. I'm fed up with them and their back-stabbing ways, to be honest.

Modifié par fkirenicus, 24 novembre 2009 - 04:55 .

[FrostyThundertrod]

There is a second deciding point if you play has a dwarf you can ask the king/queen you chose in the lands meet to help your people agents the dark spawn in witch case most the old dwarven kingdom is reclaimed and the dark spawn are pushed back in to the dead trenches.

[themaxzero]

Harrowmont is a righty, Bhelen a lefty.

About sum it up?

Modifié par themaxzero, 24 novembre 2009 - 05:34 .

[Dark83]

It's a shame only the Dwarves can ask the humans for help to push the darkspawn back. You'd figure that would be good for everybody.

[Suron]

actually on my dwarven noble I was set on supporting Harrowmount..then I came to his lacky telling me I wasn't trustworthy and Harrow wouldn't see me unless I jumped through his hoops..so I decided to do Bhelen's work to get an audience with him (with the intent on attacking him if I had the chance or telling him to blow off at least.)



but then after you talk to him he holds no grudge against you...is VERY civil..and even explains when you say you wouldn't do what he did that you are NOT fit to be king (in as nice a way there is to say it)...it actually made my intelligent Dwarf noble think about it..and one can come to the conclusion that maybe Bhelen was right....so at this point you can still stay pissed and not forgive him but see that, in fact, Bhelen would make the best King and decide to help him...



which is what my dorf noble is doing...no I don't forgive and I won't forget...but my dwarf is not blinded by vengeance not to see what's best for Orzamar...So Bhelen it is.

[KalosCast]

Bhelen is the kind of leader that who's taken the political advice in "The Prince" very seriously: being an aspiring tyrant appearing to stand for all the right things while sticking by absolutely none of the ideals when they prove inconvenient

Harrowmont, on the other hand, appears to be an all-around nice guy, patriotic and an upstanding citizen who respects the rich traditions of the past and tries to live up to them, but ultimately meaning that he supports backwards and inefficient systems that stagnate growth and progress.

And as such, none of them are actually qualified for the job in the slightest.

So it's basically every US Presidential election.

[tmp7704]

Fiaryn-Kilif wrote...

I've also heard that if you preserve the Anvil and crown Harrowmont the epilogue indicates he has surfacers kidnapped to power new golems. I guess his honor and good character only extends as far as dwarves are concerned.

That's not really very surprising, nor i'd expect a dwarf to really feel/act any different -- the surfacers seem to have zero interest in the fate of the dwarves, seeing how the latter are left entirely on their own to act as slowly crumbling shield against the darkspawn for literally hundreds of years. The dwarves have no reasons to feel positive about the surfacers, and it'd naive or worse to expect they do. That they actually do help in the fight on the surface even though it just means the darkspawn will return yet again to harass them in their own land, it shows they have more "good character" than humans and elves do (save for a few exceptions)

[fkirenicus]

I've played both the dwarf noble and commoner origins now, and must say I still haven't found any real decisive info on Harrowmont's or Bhelen's policies.

I know that Bhelen favors Rica, but that's about it.