29 réponses à ce sujet

[Rane7685]

 Anyone notice a dearth of bad guys in your squad makeup. All the various 'badguys' are always good deep down. Subject Zero, a murderer amongst a whole list of felonies is just a damaged kid at heart. Morrigan from DA has had a brutally pragmatic worldview imparted on her etc etc. Even Isabella who was awesome prima facie, spirited and untrustworthy but ultimately good (and that is fine) became sappy and weepy later. You can love someone without having a fundamental character change. The charater I want to meet is a Viconia (from BG2). Now this is going back a long time but she blew my mind (I was  a kid at the time). Here was a girl who was just a bad girl, and deep down she was bad (although throughout your travels her outlook could be modified). This was a girl who if you romanced her picking the "top right/paragon" option would repel her not seduce her.

Bad guys are typically facinating (just look at all the crime shows). Viconia remains to tthis day one of the best characters ive seen in a video  game because she destroyed all my expectations. Most of my roleplaying since then has been modelled on her (although ive outgrown it now). 

What Im saying is lets get some genuinely bad people, make them complex sure but I want to move away from these romances in which deep down the person is really a great person just with a hard life or something. Maybe even have a character seduce you to try and gain leverage over the other teammates (your the leader, she becomes powerful by association). Romances and people are more complex than be nice and to each other and fall in love.

There have been some attempts at this (subject zero renegade romance, DA2 rivalry) but they have seemed a little trite. I am someone who really likes engaging with teammates romance or not, but I find romances typically to be very similar. Its either be nice to the nice guy or be nice to the apparently bad guy who is actually nice underneath. 

[SolidBeast]

You want Kai Leng as LI?

[GuardianAngel470]

Rane7685 wrote...

 Anyone notice a dearth of bad guys in your squad makeup. All the various 'badguys' are always good deep down. Subject Zero, a murderer amongst a whole list of felonies is just a damaged kid at heart. Morrigan from DA has had a brutally pragmatic worldview imparted on her etc etc. Even Isabella who was awesome prima facie, spirited and untrustworthy but ultimately good (and that is fine) became sappy and weepy later. You can love someone without having a fundamental character change. The charater I want to meet is a Viconia (from BG2). Now this is going back a long time but she blew my mind (I was  a kid at the time). Here was a girl who was just a bad girl, and deep down she was bad (although throughout your travels her outlook could be modified). This was a girl who if you romanced her picking the "top right/paragon" option would repel her not seduce her.

Bad guys are typically facinating (just look at all the crime shows). Viconia remains to tthis day one of the best characters ive seen in a video  game because she destroyed all my expectations. Most of my roleplaying since then has been modelled on her (although ive outgrown it now). 

What Im saying is lets get some genuinely bad people, make them complex sure but I want to move away from these romances in which deep down the person is really a great person just with a hard life or something. Maybe even have a character seduce you to try and gain leverage over the other teammates (your the leader, she becomes powerful by association). Romances and people are more complex than be nice and to each other and fall in love.

There have been some attempts at this (subject zero renegade romance, DA2 rivalry) but they have seemed a little trite. I am someone who really likes engaging with teammates romance or not, but I find romances typically to be very similar. Its either be nice to the nice guy or be nice to the apparently bad guy who is actually nice underneath. 

I don't necessarily agree with you in terms of what type of character I want but to me my favorite in game romance ever was actually, and slightly controversially, Bastilla.

I liked the fact that the "romance" was you teasing her throughout the game and not just saying "I love you Bastilla, kiss me" or "I'm here damaged Bastilla, kiss me."

I would definitely like more complex romances instead of all this sappy and underdeveloped affairs we have now.

[Random citizen]

Rane7685 wrote...

 Anyone notice a dearth of bad guys in your squad makeup. All the various 'badguys' are always good deep down. Subject Zero, a murderer amongst a whole list of felonies is just a damaged kid at heart. Morrigan from DA has had a brutally pragmatic worldview imparted on her etc etc. Even Isabella who was awesome prima facie, spirited and untrustworthy but ultimately good (and that is fine) became sappy and weepy later. You can love someone without having a fundamental character change. The charater I want to meet is a Viconia (from BG2). Now this is going back a long time but she blew my mind (I was  a kid at the time). Here was a girl who was just a bad girl, and deep down she was bad (although throughout your travels her outlook could be modified). This was a girl who if you romanced her picking the "top right/paragon" option would repel her not seduce her.

Bad guys are typically facinating (just look at all the crime shows). Viconia remains to tthis day one of the best characters ive seen in a video  game because she destroyed all my expectations. Most of my roleplaying since then has been modelled on her (although ive outgrown it now). 

What Im saying is lets get some genuinely bad people, make them complex sure but I want to move away from these romances in which deep down the person is really a great person just with a hard life or something. Maybe even have a character seduce you to try and gain leverage over the other teammates (your the leader, she becomes powerful by association). Romances and people are more complex than be nice and to each other and fall in love.

There have been some attempts at this (subject zero renegade romance, DA2 rivalry) but they have seemed a little trite. I am someone who really likes engaging with teammates romance or not, but I find romances typically to be very similar. Its either be nice to the nice guy or be nice to the apparently bad guy who is actually nice underneath. 

I hate to break it to you, but if we are talking about humans, "bad people" are  basically"bad" because they are "broken"  or have some kind of "deficiancy" either by trauma or by other forms of development disorder.

What is problematic though is that so many romance characters are waiting to be "saved" emotionally by Shepard/the protagonist hero.

Modifié par Random citizen, 16 février 2012 - 11:48 .

[Rane7685]

Yes bad people have trauma, its what I meant by making the bad people complex, however there is a nature/nurture interplay here. Some people can have a predisposition towards being bad, psychopathy is a recognised condition in which individuals cannot feel empathy albeit this is a rare conddition. Take Viconia she grew up in a brutal and calculating drow culture but was a pretty bad person herself. Sometimes your upbringing can be so terrible that it corrupts you completely.

[Rane7685]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

I don't necessarily agree with you in terms of what type of character I want but to me my favorite in game romance ever was actually, and slightly controversially, Bastilla.

I liked the fact that the "romance" was you teasing her throughout the game and not just saying "I love you Bastilla, kiss me" or "I'm here damaged Bastilla, kiss me."

I would definitely like more complex romances instead of all this sappy and underdeveloped affairs we have now.

Mmm i loved the Bastilla one too. Both the light and dark side ones were good. Loved the light one because as a jedi she could never love anyone  especially (spoiler) revan. The dark side one was interesting because now i felt that she loved me because I was powerful and elected to rule by my side (i got the impression she, like malak, could (would?) betray me one day). Both romances were excellent and nuanced and we dont see it enough imo

[ncknck]

OP pretty much describes Morinth. Even can have sex with her. Except, her being evil, the outcome is not what one would expect (or rather, one should have expect that). Too bad she is underdeveloped in the game.

Modifié par ncknck, 16 février 2012 - 01:02 .

[Random citizen]

Rane7685 wrote...

Yes bad people have trauma, its what I meant by making the bad people complex, however there is a nature/nurture interplay here. Some people can have a predisposition towards being bad, psychopathy is a recognised condition in which individuals cannot feel empathy albeit this is a rare conddition. Take Viconia she grew up in a brutal and calculating drow culture but was a pretty bad person herself. Sometimes your upbringing can be so terrible that it corrupts you completely.

I agree with what you say. Predispositions, such as in the case of being born with underdeveloped or otherwise abnormal emotional and empathic capacity causing psychopathy is something that must be dealt with early so that the individual can have a chance to at least behave in a way that works socially. To learn how to behave and be given a functional code of behaviour he or she identifies himself/herself with. For, such a person risk becoming very dangerous if brought up in an harsh and non-understanding environment.

Jack is described as a psychopath by some. But, she is not. She is just really traumatized and has adepted to survive in an unforgiving and harsh environment.

[knightnblu]

SolidBeast wrote...

You want Kai Leng as LI?

They wouldn't have him. I understand that once you kick his ass for trying to kill you he has a personality change and becomes all weepy and crap and regrets his butchering of aliens and turns vegan.

[Fidget6]

Well, there was Morinth..... but she killed you so I guess that didn't work out too well.

 ninja'd.

Modifié par Fidget6, 16 février 2012 - 03:11 .

[gearseffect]

I've always thought that Jack and Miranda's rivalry was due to both had enough similar characteristics and yet opposite life experiences. Miranda and Jack saw too much of who they were and who they could be in each other and that is where they're rivalry came from.

Both were forced engineered/molded into being who they were.

Rane if your looking for a physiological type conversation it's some thing I enjoy (crawling up into characters minds and looking around to see how they tick and why they tick that way).

As far as bad people being good at heart or turned good due to complex things, one of the reasons I love Samara is because I never got to resolve things with her in ME2. She was a great character and I enjoyed trying to find out how her mind worked and all.

Other than that the only thought I have to your post is do you want Kai Leng on your team?
Or maybe your message needs to be made a bit more clear are you asking a question? Looking for a in depth psychological debate? Or just stating something you noticed?

As far as the Psycho thing and some people being just bad eggs Sadly it's true some people have no empathy and can not change, they are uncaring sadistic monsters, that no mater what happened they would have always ended up a bad egg because they were never a good egg to begin with, trust me I know a bit about this.

[mechstone]

Firstly Jack is not good deep down. She has comitted too many terrible things that can't be excused such as murdering that couple and the cult. She could have left instead of murdering them. Jack may have had a horrible childhood but she can tell the difference between right and wrong and didn't become a galaxy wide criminal by chance.

As to Kai I think he would be an excellent teammate. Basically a xenophobic shep with no morales and 10 years more experience

[casedawgz]

Well, Bioware HAS done a romance like this recently. Kaliyo, an Imperial Agent companion in Old Republic, is a genuinely horrible woman. She falls in love with you throughout the romance, and does express this, but she's still a complete monster.

[breyant]

ncknck wrote...

OP pretty much describes Morinth. Even can have sex with her. Except, her being evil, the outcome is not what one would expect (or rather, one should have expect that). Too bad she is underdeveloped in the game.

I feel like Morinth got cut way down. She has a fantastic back-story, her VA is awesome (and gorgeous), and she was featured in the "cast of ME2" video like she was going to be a prominent character. I wish she didn't have to hide in the place of Samara, I'm sure they would have given her more development then.

[mitthrawuodo]

A serial killer who won't kill you might be an interesting character but not for ME3 i think as the dye is cast

[ReallyRue]

Rane7685 wrote...
What Im saying is lets get some genuinely bad people, make them complex sure but I want to move away from these romances in which deep down the person is really a great person just with a hard life or something. Maybe even have a character seduce you to try and gain leverage over the other teammates (your the leader, she becomes powerful by association). Romances and people are more complex than be nice and to each other and fall in love.

I don't think that ever summed up Morrigan. If that could sum up any of the DAO LIs, it would be Zevran. Morrigan's attitude probably was a result of her upbringing by Flemeth, but that didn't stop her from being a genuinely ruthless person at heart. Even when she softens up due to friendship/romance, she is only softening in her attitude towards the Warden, and even then she doesn't agree with more moral/kind/whatever decisions. She always remains a 'bad girl', and more than happy to sacrifice a bunch of people, kick kittens for the lulz, or whatever else.

I'd point out that Morinth is as close as ME has gotten to an 'evil'/'bad' character being romanceable, and look how well that turns out. I think that softening towards the main character (as seen with Morrigan) is necessary for a romance to be feasable. It doesn't necessarily to change their whole outlook on the world.

[Rane7685]

I don't know who Kai Leng is apart from what ive seen in trailers, as for Morinth I suppose there is a point but it was pretty trivial. There was no build up to it you basically just ask her to kill you. As for Morrigan she is curt to people but deeper down she is damaged. I think this stems from the issue of no good or evil but just shades of grey. In this case all the apparently evil people could be construed as good deep down or damaged or something but the good guys rarely have a significant darker side (Alistair is a good example although Leliana is not).

Lets be clear, I appreciate a motives, the illusive man is a good example of a kind of nuanced bad guy. Its just BG2 explored deeper characters. Viconia ive mentioned but there was another companion whose name i cant remember but he was an evil wizard. His whole thing was dominating lesser people, he was elite, haughty and nasty and was absolutely fascinating. He would follow you because of the potential for power rather than some noble adventure.

Perhaps Im not articulating this well but there seems to be a need to squash characters, particularly romanceable ones into this fairly small box. There have been attempts as of recent to explore outside this (renegade Jack, Morinth and rivalry romance DA2) but they have been fairly trite

[Imajasjam]

Viconia had epic epic underdark PTSD. She had a neutral evil allignment, but she wasn't anywhere near Edwin/Korgain.

She mostly just acted tough and ruthless as a defense mechanism.

[Rane7685]

Ahh Edwin thats who it was. Yeh I didnt play the expansion where Viconia could be changed or something. I was a kid at the time so deeper nuances escaped me at the time. Still the impression I got from convos with her shocked and amazed me. She actually thought I was pathetic for being nice to her. I loved her because every time I spoke to her the answer was never what I expected. It avoided the whole "pick paragon and get laid" formula.

I still think my point is valid even if I am mistaken about Viconia. Im looking for a more diverse character mix. It seems to me (particularly with romanceable mates) that these apparently diverse companions get shoehorned into some sort of loving partnering archetype

[Imajasjam]

I agree Rayne. Romances in newer Bioware games dont have enough dialogue in them to make the character unique enough.

[Ryzaki]

SolidBeast wrote...

You want Kai Leng as LI?

He's Abel Nightroad hell yes I want Kai Leng as an LI!

[Lilunebrium]

casedawgz wrote...

Well, Bioware HAS done a romance like this recently. Kaliyo, an Imperial Agent companion in Old Republic, is a genuinely horrible woman. She falls in love with you throughout the romance, and does express this, but she's still a complete monster.

Go ninja my reply, why don't you.

Modifié par Lilunebrium, 17 février 2012 - 01:27 .

[Rane7685]

Havnt play SWTOR as I dont particularly like MMOs might check it out now hmmm

[foxtrotcharlie]

Ryzaki wrote...

SolidBeast wrote...

You want Kai Leng as LI?

He's Abel Nightroad hell yes I want Kai Leng as an LI!

Lol, Trinity Blood references aside, you have an interesting point.  I mean, look at Bishop from Neverwinter Nights 2 (not a Bioware game, I know, but stick with me.) Throughout the entire game, he truly gives credence to his 'chaotic evil' alignment--he never 'gives in,' as you put it, to the common trope of a redeemable hero or the prodgial son. Throughout the entire game it is clear to the player that he was almost entirely amoral, which, admittedly, was very off-putting at first, yet after a while, I began to understand him better, although I didn't necessarily trust him.  

Apparently though, he was supposed to be a romance option, yet this option was taken out of the final game. Whether this change was because of time constrignts or simply because the devolopers feared that the player would not feel attuned to an 'evil' love interest, I do not know.  But years after the game was released, and still today, Bishop has become very popular in various groups, like a cult character.  

If you were to ask me, 'are the majority of people really clammering to have more morallistically-diverse love interests?' I would not be able to tell you for sure.  But I can hypothesize how Bioware sees this question. Through their recent mmo, Kotr , Bioware has really pushed its companion characters to new personaliites, such as 'evil' ones, so I think that you may find what you are looking for through that.  Perhaps in future games there will be more opportunities like this.  

But as for the Mass Effect Universe, the character of Shepard, no matter how Renegade he/she is will never join Cerberus, or reach the level of violent racism that Kai Leng propuagates. As I am beginning to understand, the game of Mass Effect presents the player with many different choices, and gives them various opportunities to act like a Paragon or a Renegade. But there is still a script, that is, a group of paths that, though through different means, connect to a similar end (notice I didn't say same end).  

For example, even if you choose to help Cerberus at the end of ME2, they are still your enemies in ME3.  This is much different, action-wise, from a game like Fallout 3, where you have the option of blowing up an entire town or murdering a whole city.  But there is a disconnect in Fallout from this type of action as, (which is my biggest problem with many of Bethesda Games) there is almost no connection to the characters, or arguably even to the story.  The most intersting character is the setting.  Bioware sacrifices complete freedom of choice of action for depth in characterization and plot, which is not a bad thing.  Does this make Mass Effect better than Fallout 3? No, they are just different.  

But to reaffirm your issue with having an 'evil' character and why can't Shepard re-join Cerberus.

 In short: because there is just not enough time and room to create such an immense game where not only every single conversation, character and plot point are fully flushed out and memorable, but also branch out to the hundreds of decisions that your character could choose and would effect the tide of the rest of the game....that would be quite an ambitious project.  But I'm not saying that it can't be done in the future, mind you.  

[Rane7685]

The problem with Bethesda games generally is you are essentially alone. The thing I love about a lot of RPGs are the companions you travel with. Id be more than happy with a game that only lasted some 20 odd hours if the characters within it were diverse, nuanced and engaging. Quality over quantity . There could easily be reasons for Shep having evil characters. The reapers want to kill everyone so it could be a case of enemy of my enemy is my friend etc etc.

To be honest though I wasnt refering to Mass Effect specifically. Its just Mass Effect is indicative of a broader issue that seems to be endemic in modern rpgs. Food for thought