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[ComTrav]

sparkyclarky24 wrote...

surely as thedas evolves more people of the lands will begin to question these holes in the theories.... i.e. what the hell is the blight ?? (and i mean properly) and wtf is going on with this so called black city??



(omg i really have to stop double posting )

A number of characters in game do. The dwarfen codex entries are somewhat skeptical, as they've been fighting darkspawn underground for a while and don't believe in this whole Maker nonsense. Even Wynne (Schoolmarmish Light Side Wynne!) when asked about it at Ostagar says the Chantry's version of events is a 'useful metaphor'.

I suspect that the Chantry version is not entirely wrong, but probably incomplete--although I don't believe we've been given any strong indication in-game that this omission is intentional. After thousands of years and four Blights, it's to be expected only fragmentary and mythologized accounts survive.

[Auraad]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Just like all religions, there is alot of truth behind every word. The key is not to take it literraly.

Well ... but in THIS case the ashes of this friggin woman heal (spoiler) the arl - so the ash really worx (apart from "normal" magic). So, what are we supposed to think of this, eh?

Modifié par Auraad, 24 novembre 2009 - 03:33 .

[Orogun01]

Auraad wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Just like all religions, there is alot of truth behind every word. The key is not to take it literraly.

Well ... but in THIS case the ashes of this friggin woman heal (spoiler) the arl - so the ash really worx (apart from "normal" magic). So, what are we supposed to think of this, eh?

There is no actual knowledge of how phenomena works on the DA:O universe, so that isn't a solid confirmation of the existence of a Maker or it's nature. Trying not be a cynic, Andraste could have been many things unrelated to the Maker; a Spirit Healer perhaps. She was reputed to preform miracles (wonder what counts as a miracle in a world with magic?) and was allegedly good natured.

[K1D27H]

Auraad : It is true that the ashes from the wastebin did cure the arl, but if you brought Oghren with you on your trip there, he made an interesting observation suggested that the lyrium concentration in the ashes are so high that he never expect to see that somewhere else other than in a lyrium mine (that is what I gathered). With that information....it might be possible that the ashes just gain their power when they collected some dust after a while in the temple.

Modifié par K1D27H, 24 novembre 2009 - 04:25 .

[Unbroken Lineage]

Hmm, good points all around. Perhaps Andraste's Maker was a hallucinatory result of Lyrium madness, but due to her sincerity it took a benevolent form. The Tevinter Magister Lords' Lyrium madness took a decidedly malevolent form.

[Forumtroll]

Explain the Guardian of the Ashes. How can he read minds? Is he undead? What is he?

[K1D27H]

Forumtroll: I recalled that he told the player that he is the spirit guarding the wastebin (he did leave a corpse like other people, though). I guess he is equivalent to the guardian of the holy grail in Indy's movie. As for mind reading, I do not remember there are any explanations of what a spirit can do. Perhaps his one half exists in the fade and another in reality, and the one in the fade might be able to pry the minds of the pilgrims present in his vicinity. But that is just my theory.

Modifié par K1D27H, 24 novembre 2009 - 04:32 .

[K1D27H]

Damn this forum, double post.

Modifié par K1D27H, 24 novembre 2009 - 04:31 .

[Taleroth]

I'm inclined to side with the Dwarves on this one. They maintain a detailed history and my understanding is that their codex entries tend to express a belief that the Darkspawn are older than the Chantry claim. I've not played a Dwarf, so I don't know the specifics of that entry.  However, the idea that the Darkspawn predate the Tevinter Imperium would go a long way to contesting even the notion of the Golden City.

And there's a Rage demon particularly blasphemous about there being no Maker and no Golden City. While there is reason to doubt its words, they're still the group of creatures who are most likely to know the truth.

Modifié par Taleroth, 24 novembre 2009 - 04:35 .

[Forumtroll]

If the Maker is something Andraste saw while she was high off lyrium, why is the spirit guarding the Ashes? Wouldn't a spirit know whether or not a Maker existed? Of course the spirit could be bound by magic.

[Taleroth]

Forumtroll wrote...

If the Maker is something Andraste saw while she was high off lyrium, why is the spirit guarding the Ashes? Wouldn't a spirit know whether or not a Maker existed? Of course the spirit could be bound by magic.

Because he's the spirit of a human believer.  My understanding is that he was once a Knight Pilgrim type thing.

[Sarethus]

Unbroken Lineage wrote...

The fact that Andraste's Ashes function is conclusive proof that 1) the Maker exists, 2) Andraste existed, 3) the Maker conferred to Andraste certain Powers due to having been so moved by her devotion. I have to say, this was a nice change from most RPGs which build up a religion only to expose it as false.

As to the Darkspawn and the Blight and the Golden/Black City in the Fade and so on, that's a little murky.

The Disciples of Andraste had obviously gone astray (the Dragon Cult in Haven), so it is entirely possible that the Chantry has also lost some of the knowledge it was trying to preserve.

Not to sure about this actually. From what I remember in certain conversations or codex entries suggested that Andraste might just have been a power full mage and not a Prophet. If that was true I could easily see the ashes/cup having plain magical power rather then divine power. Bioware from what I remember wanted to keep the existance of any god (Maker, Elven or the Stone) as ambiguous and up to the player.

[FlintlockJazz]

Isn't it written somewhere that the elven gods were at war with some other set of beings and that both the elven gods and their opponents were bound to heaven and hell? If indeed that is the case but isn't literal and if the elven gods are the old gods and the maker is the elven god who trapped them in heaven and hell then maybe the darkspawn are in some way connected with their enemies? Maybe the leftover soulless remains of the Old Gods enemies who mindlessly seek out their old enemies in order to regain some measure of control and order?

[Taleroth]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Isn't it written somewhere that the elven gods were at war with some other set of beings and that both the elven gods and their opponents were bound to heaven and hell? If indeed that is the case but isn't literal and if the elven gods are the old gods and the maker is the elven god who trapped them in heaven and hell then maybe the darkspawn are in some way connected with their enemies? Maybe the leftover soulless remains of the Old Gods enemies who mindlessly seek out their old enemies in order to regain some measure of control and order?

The Old Gods are dragons worshipped by the Tevinter Imperium.  They are definitely not the Elven Pantheon.

[FlintlockJazz]

Taleroth wrote...

The Old Gods are dragons worshipped by the Tevinter Imperium.  They are definitely not the Elven Pantheon.

I think it's possible that they are, they just interpreted them differently, or maybe the gods changed after being bound, or the elves just didn't know what they were talking to. 

[Forumtroll]

It is in my opinion that if benevolent spirits, demons, magic, undead, and dragons exist. Other things exist as well. The Maker may very well be one of the above.

[Punch-O-matiC]

My theory, for what it's worth..



The Maker (Fen'Harel) is the last of the "Fade Gods", who imprisioned it's rivals in order to become the sole power in the Fade. The "evil" gods of Elven myth trapped in the abyss are the Old Gods, buried beneath the surface of Thedas.



The arrival of humans in Thedas was in answer to the Old Gods call, as they had sunk their claws into men's minds in ancient times. The teaching of magic (specifically Blood magic) by the Old Gods, the creation of the Imperium and the plundering of the Elven Kingdom were part of a larger plan by the scaly shapeshifting demon dragon's.



This plan required the Magisters of the Tevinter Imperium to gather the power, knowledge and resources necessary to invade the Golden City and destroy the Old God's jailor in order to free them. Although the Magisters failed, they came close enough to butchering the Maker to turn it's contempt for the physical world into hatred and fear.



The Darkspawn were created by the Maker, the only things it has ever truly made, to end this threat. They are driven to seek out the Old Gods and to free them, just as the Magisters intended. Of course, the Old Gods are infected by the Maker's taint and become expressions of the Maker's will to end the threat of future home invasions by nasty mages.



The failure of the First Blight to wipe out the Imperium, (along with all life in Thedas) led to alternative plans. Andraste, troubled former slave or powerful mage, was selected as the Maker's new tool. She was probably possessed by the Maker, an Abomination preaching against the Imperium's evil and the excesses of the Magisters.



The fact that the Elves joined the holy war only adds to the irony, as they were the worshipers of the Old Gods other enemies, the "good" Elven gods of old. No wonder the Maker was once called the God of Tricksters by the Elves!



Maferath's betrayal of Andraste was, most likely, brought about by him recognising she was an Abomination. Still, the fact the Maker is worshiped by the very people his Blight's are intended to destroy must have made up for it.



The long and short of this wall of text theory is this; a bunch of fake gods fighting each other for power whilst alternatively using,controling or trying to destroy the poor suckers who worship them.



Sounds oddly familiar....

[Taleroth]

A theory I've heard that sounds interesting is that the Fade itself is an expression of the collective unconcious. People see the Black City because they expect to see the Black City.



It's nice and it ties in with the fantasy trope where belief creates gods. Also known as Clap Your Hands If You Believe.



Thus, the Maker would be real by extension of him having significant enough belief/worship.



However, that doesn't seem to fit some of the setting thematics, where religion is supposed to be faith based. I would expect people to more tend to Leliana's belief system if they could, resulting in the Maker showing himself. A religion's belief that he has turned away speaks more to me as excusing his absence than desiring and creating it.

[Herr Uhl]

Forumtroll wrote...

Explain the Guardian of the Ashes. How can he read minds? Is he undead? What is he?

Oghren gives a plausible explanation in that the place is packed with lyrium.

[Orogun01]

Taleroth wrote...

A theory I've heard that sounds interesting is that the Fade itself is an expression of the collective unconcious. People see the Black City because they expect to see the Black City.

It's nice and it ties in with the fantasy trope where belief creates gods. Also known as Clap Your Hands If You Believe.

Thus, the Maker would be real by extension of him having significant enough belief/worship.

However, that doesn't seem to fit some of the setting thematics, where religion is supposed to be faith based. I would expect people to more tend to Leliana's belief system if they could, resulting in the Maker showing himself. A religion's belief that he has turned away speaks more to me as excusing his absence than desiring and creating it.

But it fails to explain why demons and the Fade predate humans.

[KalosCast]

You can really tell that the Chantry was modelled too close to Christianity, because everybody is so eager to try to explain The Maker away as something else.

Modifié par KalosCast, 26 novembre 2009 - 12:51 .

[happyelf]

Punch-O-matiC wrote...

My theory, for what it's worth..

The Maker (Fen'Harel) is the last of the "Fade Gods", who imprisioned it's rivals in order to become the sole power in the Fade. The "evil" gods of Elven myth trapped in the abyss are the Old Gods, buried beneath the surface of Thedas..... (snip)

I don't think the rest follows from this.

What I think happened was that Fen'Harel, for whatever reason, used his unique position between the two warring sets of gods to banish them all.

Maybe the elven gods are also the old gods, or maybe they're two different spirit courts, but either way, he traps them and ends up being the only spirit of that power, and maybe he hangs out in a city in the fade.

Then the old gods try and counterattack, by setting up the imperium and getting them to attack the city in the fade. Maybe the maker sends the blight as a counterattack, or maybe the blight was something the old gods got from the golden city- a way to set themselves free.

Then, over time, the blight finds the old gods, and they rise up, and go on a freaking rampage, and sure their first rampage takes out the imperium, but what do they care? They're big jerks. The mages probably came back from the golden city, released the first arch-demon, and were promptly eaten by it.

Andraste is probably just the maker's servant, regardless of what the maker is. Rather than letter the imperium or the blight conquer the world (either way, the old gods would eventually be freed as a result), the maker creates a champion, to take out the servants of his foes, and create a status quo in the world that suits his agenda better. 

[sparkyclarky24]

either way, well find out more on the lore in future texts of dragon age.

[Rugaru]

Rainstorm01 wrote...



...its a fact that the Black City does exist...

Are you sure it really exists? As a dwarf I can't even enter the fade so for me it doesn't even compute that it might exist since the fade itself doesn't exist.



As anyone else not a mage...the fade is a dream and dreams aren't real so the black city indeed still does not exist.



As a mage, the fade is a dream world in which anything can be made "real" with thought...the spirit of valor's staff in the origin teaches that. So the black city could just always be seen only because it is a constant suggestion from the chantry and therefore everytime you enter the fade you "create" the black city. So in that regard it still does not exist.

______________________________________________________________



Copy pasted from the other thread.



As far as this thread.



1. If the only people that can "interact" with the fade are mages and everyone else sees it as a dream, then how does the chantry even know much of anything about the fade and the black city?



2. In game it is even explained that templars are forms of mages, so how does the chantry "get away" with saying magic is bad and still have the templars be sort of a paragon of their belief?

[The Angry One]

The Black City exists in so far as there is a large structure connected to many smaller ones (ships?) in the Fade. That's the totally of the facts in this case.
Anything else is useless Chantry dogma designed to venerate their absentee sky pixie and the idiot woman who wanted to bed the absentee sky pixie.

Couldar wrote...

1. If the only people that can "interact" with the fade are mages and everyone else sees it as a dream, then how does the chantry even know much of anything about the fade and the black city?

You forget they have mages under their command in the Circles.
Besides, it's probable that they got their info from Tevinter records, Tevinter spent a great deal of time trying to map the Fade and research it. It would be easy to gain knowledge of the big ass structure in the Fade that nobody can ever get to, falsely credit it to their nebulous absent god and then blame Tevinter mages for all the ills of the world through it.

2. In game it is even explained that templars are forms of mages, so how does the chantry "get away" with saying magic is bad and still have the templars be sort of a paragon of their belief?

Because it's convenient, and since Templar "magic" only works against mages and magical creatures, not normal people, it's easy to dismiss.