337 réponses à ce sujet

[VolusvsReaper]

egervari wrote...

izmirtheastarach wrote...

VolusvsReaper wrote...

Shh don't explain concepts of marketing to someone who has no idea how to do it. I would truley like to see how poorly the OP's marketing campaign would do if BW allowed them to market ME3.

No, no. I know how it goes. You market the game only to people who have played every one of your other games, and hate anything that isn't an old-school, inventory juggling micro-management heavy RPG. And then you hope that those 173 people are enough for you to build a business on.

There is more than 173 people. And inventory juggling has nothing to do with it specifically - customization is the more general theme, and progression. How that happens is up to the game design.

The developers did the same thing with Dragon Age 2... and then they tried to give "assurances" at the last minute that it was a sequel that the gamers who loved Origins would also fall in love with. I've seen that song and dance before, and frankly, I won't trust bioware on their word ever again. Dragon Age 2 was such a failure that it's hard to take anything Bioware's game designers say at their word. Long-term fans have every reason to be skeptical of ME3.

LOL

[heart again]

Oh wow you heard of bioware long before ME1?! What do you want, a sticker? Get over yourself OP.

[izmirtheastarach]

adam1923 wrote...

Look at it like this. A company creates a product to sell to a target audience. Turns out, the audience you created the first product for is much smaller than the audience you can change your product to fit. Thus, you will have the interest and loyalty of the first audience and the new audience can be caught by marketing your product in a light they will find pleasing. Sadly, the world revolves around money. Making money, lots of it. It just makes sense Bioware/EA would want to expand their consumer base. 

It's only sad for that tiny percentage of the fanbase who only liked the game because it fit into the very specific type of games they enjoy. 

For the rest of us, who enjoy them because they are good games, and enjoy many different kinds of games, it's great. And we are the majority.

[Draconis6666]

egervari wrote...

Not all gamers are the same. While there is some overlap, I would bet a lot of money that RPG gamers generally don't care for sports games, racing games, etc. - and even fps's to a lesser degree. There is more overlap with adventure games, or rts's like warcraft/starcraft than there is with FPS.

This is because RPG gamers for some reason tend to be the worst opponents of games changing at all, its always "hardcore RPG gamers" who yell the loudest about new features of any form, and who are the first to yell that games are terrible because they dont have archaic features like inventory juggling and 75 stats to micromanage due to nostalga. With that in mind I dont know why anyone would seriously market anything towards them, when they are so vocal about the fact that the only way to please them is to remake the same game over and over it becomes pointless to market anything to them unless you just want to make the same game over and over, because they will always find some reason to complain about how its not Baldurs Gate (or whatever other "old school" rpg they chose)

[RoboticWater]

egervari wrote...

izmirtheastarach wrote...

VolusvsReaper wrote...

Shh don't explain concepts of marketing to someone who has no idea how to do it. I would truley like to see how poorly the OP's marketing campaign would do if BW allowed them to market ME3.

No, no. I know how it goes. You market the game only to people who have played every one of your other games, and hate anything that isn't an old-school, inventory juggling micro-management heavy RPG. And then you hope that those 173 people are enough for you to build a business on.

There is more than 173 people. 

You're still missing the point.

[egervari]

adam1923 wrote...

egervari wrote...

adam1923 wrote...

You already are interested in the game, yes?

Marketing isn't for you. It's just the nature of the beast.

Not all gamers are the same. While there is some overlap, I would bet a lot of money that RPG gamers generally don't care for sports games, racing games, etc. - and even fps's.

That assumption you make about RPG gamers is certainly correct by my view.

Look at it like this. A company creates a product to sell to a target audience. Turns out, the audience you created the first product for is much smaller than the audience you can change your product to fit. Thus, you will have the interest and loyalty of the first audience and the new audience can be caught by marketing your product in a light they will find pleasing. Sadly, the world revolves around money. Making money, lots of it. It just makes sense Bioware/EA would want to expand their consumer base. 

I understand. Still, they could do a few things to assure the original audience that they aren't going to screw up the game - even if it's 10% of the marketing budget, or even less.

The thing I worry about the most is that they are going to do to ME3 what they did with DA2. And of course, they tried to assure us that everything was sunshine and lollipops with DA2... but that wasn't really the case. It was a huge smack to the people that bought and loved Baldur's Gate 1 & 2, and Origins.

[SomeKindaEnigma]

so.... pre-order cancelled?

[izmirtheastarach]

egervari wrote...

There is more than 173 people. And inventory juggling has nothing to do with it specifically - customization is the more general theme, and progression. How that happens is up to the game design.

The developers did the same thing with Dragon Age 2... and then they tried to give "assurances" at the last minute that it was a sequel that the gamers who loved Origins would also fall in love with. I've seen that song and dance before, and frankly, I won't trust bioware on their word ever again. Dragon Age 2 was such a failure that it's hard to take anything Bioware's game designers say at their word. Long-term fans have every reason to be skeptical of ME3.

Dragon Age 2 failed (and i use that term only because you did) because it wasn't very memorable. I played DAO striaght through a half dozen times, but I will probably never play DA2 again. It's not because it doesn't fit into the same formula as DAO, it's because it just wasn't that great.

[adam1923]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

adam1923 wrote...

Look at it like this. A company creates a product to sell to a target audience. Turns out, the audience you created the first product for is much smaller than the audience you can change your product to fit. Thus, you will have the interest and loyalty of the first audience and the new audience can be caught by marketing your product in a light they will find pleasing. Sadly, the world revolves around money. Making money, lots of it. It just makes sense Bioware/EA would want to expand their consumer base. 

It's only sad for that tiny percentage of the fanbase who only liked the game because it fit into the very specific type of games they enjoy. 

For the rest of us, who enjoy them because they are good games, and enjoy many different kinds of games, it's great. And we are the majority.

That is true. I am not upset by the marketing of ME3. I look forward to the action/rpg style. It's fun to branch out. ME1 will always hold a place in my heart as a glorious RPG

[izmirtheastarach]

adam1923 wrote...

That is true. I am not upset by the marketing of ME3. I look forward to the action/rpg style. It's fun to branch out. ME1 will always hold a place in my heart as a glorious RPG

And every one of these games will hold the same place in my heart as fun games with great characters and a good story. I could not care less what genre labels they carry.

Also, ME1 was an action RPG. Not sure why people don't remember it that way.

Modifié par izmirtheastarach, 17 février 2012 - 03:44 .

[egervari]

Draconis6666 wrote...

egervari wrote...

Not all gamers are the same. While there is some overlap, I would bet a lot of money that RPG gamers generally don't care for sports games, racing games, etc. - and even fps's to a lesser degree. There is more overlap with adventure games, or rts's like warcraft/starcraft than there is with FPS.

This is because RPG gamers for some reason tend to be the worst opponents of games changing at all, its always "hardcore RPG gamers" who yell the loudest about new features of any form, and who are the first to yell that games are terrible because they dont have archaic features like inventory juggling and 75 stats to micromanage due to nostalga. With that in mind I dont know why anyone would seriously market anything towards them, when they are so vocal about the fact that the only way to please them is to remake the same game over and over it becomes pointless to market anything to them unless you just want to make the same game over and over, because they will always find some reason to complain about how its not Baldurs Gate (or whatever other "old school" rpg they chose)

Who said anything about old-school? You can find new ways to customize and progress your characters in an RPG-like fashion without out-right removing these things from the game entirely. It *is* possible. Kingdoms of Amalur actually goes to a large extent to prove this with its combat and RPG-mechanics.

[essarr71]

Ugh.. I'm so done with these thread and I'm sure they'll just keep going until the 6th.

Big reveal this sunday.. i'm sure we'll see more in the next few weeks.

National TV spots cost money. A lot of money. Also: they tend to be effective in short bursts before release.

[Travie]

I agree completely OP.

Its really tiring seeing casual audiences pandered to and good gameplay watered down.

Lets all take the stress off with a good laugh.

[izmirtheastarach]

I just can't understand why the marketing matters to people who already are planning to play the game. They aren't marketing to you. Why would they waste their money doing that?

[gearseffect]

adam1923 wrote...

You already are interested in the game, yes?

Marketing isn't for you. It's just the nature of the beast.

Yeah well sometimes when an industry feeds that beast and caters to it to the point of excluding everything else then said industry ends up with cookie cutter versions of some thing that was good until people no longer know what was good and what is bad cheap knock offs. Each Copy Cat is less original and waters down the entire industry and soon people wake up say wise up to the con and quite buying anything that is assosiated with said genre. But the ****** suits don't ever notice that they are spending more money than they are making and the whole works eats itself from the inside out.

It's happened before and due to my love for the things being ruined for the sake of mainstreaming for more sells I will never get tired of seeing people throwing it out there that they are not happy about it.

I would give the OP a Hand Shake, Huge, Round of Applause, and thank you. It is good to see that some people don't give a poop about offending the powers that be, and view it as a sacred cow.

To you my good friend for having the Balls to Stand Up and Post This.
I have gone on many rants about this sort of selling out and It is good to see somebody else who is just as alarmed about it as I am.

[VolusvsReaper]

Still confused as to what DAII, Origins, or Baldurs Gate have anything to do with ME3....

ME1 was pretty good
ME2 was pretty good
ME3= combined version of both and judging by the demo it probably will be pretty good

I have no idea what the hell Baldurs Gate, Origins, DAII, Marketing of free BF3 game for purchase of ME3 game have anything to do with the quality ME3 will present.

This whole thread is a utter cluster ****

[RoboticWater]

Travie wrote...

I agree completely OP.

Its really tiring seeing casual audiences pandered to and good gameplay watered down.

Lets all take the stress off with a good laugh.

Please be joking. Please.

[egervari]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

egervari wrote...

There is more than 173 people. And inventory juggling has nothing to do with it specifically - customization is the more general theme, and progression. How that happens is up to the game design.

The developers did the same thing with Dragon Age 2... and then they tried to give "assurances" at the last minute that it was a sequel that the gamers who loved Origins would also fall in love with. I've seen that song and dance before, and frankly, I won't trust bioware on their word ever again. Dragon Age 2 was such a failure that it's hard to take anything Bioware's game designers say at their word. Long-term fans have every reason to be skeptical of ME3.

Dragon Age 2 failed (and i use that term only because you did) because it wasn't very memorable. I played DAO striaght through a half dozen times, but I will probably never play DA2 again. It's not because it doesn't fit into the same formula as DAO, it's because it just wasn't that great.

I agree to some extent, but that was not all of the game's problems. The lack of an overhead camera, just to name one thing, was a huge problem with the game. I would say that due to the fast-paced combat and the waves of enemies appearing out of nowhere, the overhead camera was even more necessary than compared to Origins.

Read the review I linked to. The list of problems with that game are more than just the story.

[DRUNK_CANADIAN]

egervari wrote...

DRUNK_CANADIAN wrote...

Because FPS market is much more profitable?

Case and point, COD.

Fine, make a new IP for them then.

You miss the point, COD grew to the level it has today, by brand recognition, just like Final Fantasy games (which suck now since SE changed their design philosophy). Taking ME, a successful title, and making it slowly more mainstream to the point where it achieves the kind of recognition of COD/Battlefield/FF/etc. is exactly what they want.

Ironically I think they have Steam to thank for much of their PC success.

[adam1923]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

And every one of these games will hold the same place in my heart as fun games with great characters and a good story. I could not care less what genre labels they carry.

Also, ME1 was an action RPG. Not sure why people don't remember it that way.

You're right, it was classified as an action RPG. Although, I'm sure you wouldn't argue that ME1 had many more RPG elements and a deeper "RPG" feel than ME2.  I feel that's where the so called confusion comes from. Not so much an argue of genre, more an argue of the way the game plays. 

[egervari]

VolusvsReaper wrote...

Still confused as to what DAII, Origins, or Baldurs Gate have anything to do with ME3....

ME1 was pretty good
ME2 was pretty good
ME3= combined version of both and judging by the demo it probably will be pretty good

I have no idea what the hell Baldurs Gate, Origins, DAII, Marketing of free BF3 game for purchase of ME3 game have anything to do with the quality ME3 will present.

This whole thread is a utter cluster ****

Simple: EA having more involvement, and DA2 being a fine example of what that looks like.

[Travie]

BlahDog wrote...

Travie wrote...

I agree completely OP.

Its really tiring seeing casual audiences pandered to and good gameplay watered down.

Lets all take the stress off with a good laugh.

Please be joking. Please.

Sorry bro, those are the real animations.

I'm gonna go find a good shoulder to cry on now.

[SomeKindaEnigma]

adam1923 wrote...

izmirtheastarach wrote...

adam1923 wrote...

Look at it like this. A company creates a product to sell to a target audience. Turns out, the audience you created the first product for is much smaller than the audience you can change your product to fit. Thus, you will have the interest and loyalty of the first audience and the new audience can be caught by marketing your product in a light they will find pleasing. Sadly, the world revolves around money. Making money, lots of it. It just makes sense Bioware/EA would want to expand their consumer base. 

It's only sad for that tiny percentage of the fanbase who only liked the game because it fit into the very specific type of games they enjoy. 

For the rest of us, who enjoy them because they are good games, and enjoy many different kinds of games, it's great. And we are the majority.

That is true. I am not upset by the marketing of ME3. I look forward to the action/rpg style. It's fun to branch out. ME1 will always hold a place in my heart as a glorious RPG

Spot on.  I enjoy RPG's, but I also enjoy Halo, Crysis, and other shooters.  Which is what made ME2 a dream come true for me, simply put.  Stylish combat along with an engaging story and outstanding character development with its RPG roots still in tact (toned down, but still there).  

OP, I would also love to see your proof that people who enjoy COD, Battlefield, etc, are all young, less sophisticated and simple people.  I have many friends in college (universities, not community colleges) who enjoy them (including myself) as well as friends in top-tier programs (grad school) who enjoy a few matches every now and then of modern warfare to relax from school work.  Are those people young/less sophisticated?  I think not.

[izmirtheastarach]

adam1923 wrote...

You're right, it was classified as an action RPG. Although, I'm sure you wouldn't argue that ME1 had many more RPG elements and a deeper "RPG" feel than ME2.  I feel that's where the so called confusion comes from. Not so much an argue of genre, more an argue of the way the game plays. 

It had more of the clunky old-fashioned RPG elements. If that is what appeals to you, I can see why that would feel more like an RPG to you. For me, I felt more like I was actually playing a role in ME2, which is what an RPG is to me.

[RoboticWater]

Travie wrote...

BlahDog wrote...

Travie wrote...

I agree completely OP.

Its really tiring seeing casual audiences pandered to and good gameplay watered down.

Lets all take the stress off with a good laugh.

Please be joking. Please.

Sorry bro, those are the real animations.

I'm gonna go find a good shoulder to cry on now.

I wasn't talking about the animations, I know those are bad. I was referring to how you said gameplay was being watered down for "casual audiences".