337 réponses à ce sujet

[adam1923]

gearseffect wrote...

adam1923 wrote...

You already are interested in the game, yes?

Marketing isn't for you. It's just the nature of the beast.

Yeah well sometimes when an industry feeds that beast and caters to it to the point of excluding everything else then said industry ends up with cookie cutter versions of some thing that was good until people no longer know what was good and what is bad cheap knock offs. Each Copy Cat is less original and waters down the entire industry and soon people wake up say wise up to the con and quite buying anything that is assosiated with said genre. But the ****** suits don't ever notice that they are spending more money than they are making and the whole works eats itself from the inside out.

It's happened before and due to my love for the things being ruined for the sake of mainstreaming for more sells I will never get tired of seeing people throwing it out there that they are not happy about it.

I would give the OP a Hand Shake, Huge, Round of Applause, and thank you. It is good to see that some people don't give a poop about offending the powers that be, and view it as a sacred cow.

To you my good friend for having the Balls to Stand Up and Post This.
I have gone on many rants about this sort of selling out and It is good to see somebody else who is just as alarmed about it as I am.

I am not a fan of the beast. However, until we find a way to get around it. There won't be much change. Mass Effect has a historically high budget. This budget is due to "the powers that be" If mass effect didn't have the afforementioned budget. I'm sure it wouldn't be the same game. Now, I can't argue that it would be a lesser game. 

I wish it weren't that way, sadly it is. 

[egervari]

DRUNK_CANADIAN wrote...

egervari wrote...

DRUNK_CANADIAN wrote...

Because FPS market is much more profitable?

Case and point, COD.

Fine, make a new IP for them then.

You miss the point, COD grew to the level it has today, by brand recognition, just like Final Fantasy games (which suck now since SE changed their design philosophy). Taking ME, a successful title, and making it slowly more mainstream to the point where it achieves the kind of recognition of COD/Battlefield/FF/etc. is exactly what they want.

Ironically I think they have Steam to thank for much of their PC success.

Than they should have started the Mass Effect series that way. Look at how much they destroyed the brand of Dragon Age by releasing the second game? How on earth was that a good investment for the brand? It wasn't. They made FAR LESS money:

http://www.escapistm...gon-Age-2-Sales

If they want to do what is best for them long-term, maybe satisfying us "minority" gamers might be in their best interest.

[Legion64]

So this is step one of the OP's plan: Complain.

Step two: threaten to cancel pre-order

Step three: Still buy ME3.

Did I figure out your master plot?

[izmirtheastarach]

egervari wrote...

I agree to some extent, but that was not all of the game's problems. The lack of an overhead camera, just to name one thing, was a huge problem with the game. I would say that due to the fast-paced combat and the waves of enemies appearing out of nowhere, the overhead camera was even more necessary than compared to Origins.

Read the review I linked to. The list of problems with that game are more than just the story.

There were lots of problems with the game. But there were problems with DAO. If the story had been halfway as compelling, the problems would have been completely ignored. That's what DAO did right.

[VolusvsReaper]

I honestly don't know what people want from a Bioware game...the "Hardcore" supporters either want the same ME1 boring horrible combat rinse repeat or they want a 100 hour game of stopping another blight. If you deviate from those paths they all cry "ITS GOING TO BE TERRIBLE" while the majority of us just stand here shaking our heads.

[Travie]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

adam1923 wrote...

Look at it like this. A company creates a product to sell to a target audience. Turns out, the audience you created the first product for is much smaller than the audience you can change your product to fit. Thus, you will have the interest and loyalty of the first audience and the new audience can be caught by marketing your product in a light they will find pleasing. Sadly, the world revolves around money. Making money, lots of it. It just makes sense Bioware/EA would want to expand their consumer base. 

It's only sad for that tiny percentage of the fanbase who only liked the game because it fit into the very specific type of games they enjoy. 

For the rest of us, who enjoy them because they are good games, and enjoy many different kinds of games, it's great. And we are the majority.

Looks like you completely missed the point.

Yes, the larger fanbase is what they were shooting for, but they turned their back on their original audience in the process.

They backtracked some on 3, and that is a good thing. They realized their mistake and put back in some of the RPG elements that their original fanbase wanted.

Also, 'we are the majority.' You realize how childish that sounds?

[Draconis6666]

egervari wrote...


Who said anything about old-school? You can find new ways to customize and progress your characters in an RPG-like fashion without out-right removing these things from the game entirely. It *is* possible. Kingdoms of Amalur actually goes to a large extent to prove this with its combat and RPG-mechanics.

The very fact that you mention "RPG-Like Fasion" just proves my point, it has to have the features that you expect an RPG to have or its not an RPG and many of those features arent even needed for an RPG people just expect them because they dont want change. What RPG-Mechanics exactly is it that Kingdoms of Amalur has that you think makes it so much better? because it has an inventory? because its open world? If so then again your argument is pointless because Mass Effect was never intended to be that kind of RPG. If thats the kind of RPG you like then Mass Effect was never the series for you.

I'm still failing to even grasp your argument on combat, the combat in ME 3 is a great deal more complex and innovative than ME 1 was and in many ways more so than ME 2 so I wont even touch on that one.

[Travie]

BlahDog wrote...

Travie wrote...

BlahDog wrote...

Travie wrote...

I agree completely OP.

Its really tiring seeing casual audiences pandered to and good gameplay watered down.

Lets all take the stress off with a good laugh.

Please be joking. Please.

Sorry bro, those are the real animations.

I'm gonna go find a good shoulder to cry on now.

I wasn't talking about the animations, I know those are bad. I was referring to how you said gameplay was being watered down for "casual audiences".

Oh sorry, I forgot the /sarcasm tag.

I always forget that tone doesn't come across well on the internet...

[izmirtheastarach]

Travie wrote...

Yes, the larger fanbase is what they were shooting for, but they turned their back on their original audience in the process.

This is where you lose me. I AM PART OF THE ORIGINAL FANBASE. Am I some magical, mythical creature?

[JeffZero]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

Travie wrote...

Yes, the larger fanbase is what they were shooting for, but they turned their back on their original audience in the process.

This is where you lose me. I AM PART OF THE ORIGINAL FANBASE. Am I some magical, mythical creature?

Makes two of us.

[Draconis6666]

egervari wrote...

Than they should have started the Mass Effect series that way. Look at how much they destroyed the brand of Dragon Age by releasing the second game? How on earth was that a good investment for the brand? It wasn't. They made FAR LESS money:

http://www.escapistm...gon-Age-2-Sales

If they want to do what is best for them long-term, maybe satisfying us "minority" gamers might be in their best interest.

Again a pointless argument since all the changes you seem to find so horrid came in ME 2 not in ME 3 and ME 3 is actualy in many ways a step closer to ME 1. ME 2 sold much higher than ME 1 and was in no way a failure despite the rants of all the hardcore RPGers screaming that it wasnt an RPG.

[izmirtheastarach]

JeffZero wrote...

izmirtheastarach wrote...

Travie wrote...

Yes, the larger fanbase is what they were shooting for, but they turned their back on their original audience in the process.

This is where you lose me. I AM PART OF THE ORIGINAL FANBASE. Am I some magical, mythical creature?

Makes two of us.

I think it actually makes a million or two.

[Taritu]

We'll see, won't we. They'll get my order, because I played the first two and I'm invested in Shep's story. But, if the game is a disappointment, after DA2 also being one, then Bioware's future games will go into the "buy when they discount by more than half" bin. Given what we know about the sales #s of DA2, the idea that Bioware can disappoint and not pay a price is... strange, and very fanboi.

There's always a price when a company gets taken over. The original owners think they can take the money and keep control and their souls. They never do. Never. This is the case in every industry, not just the gaming industry.

[egervari]

VolusvsReaper wrote...

I honestly don't know what people want from a Bioware game...the "Hardcore" supporters either want the same ME1 boring horrible combat rinse repeat or they want a 100 hour game of stopping another blight. If you deviate from those paths they all cry "ITS GOING TO BE TERRIBLE" while the majority of us just stand here shaking our heads.

No, that's not it at all.

There was a lot of problems with ME1 too, and thankfully, ME2 fixed a great number of them, at least as far as combat goes.

But there was significant problems.

- Mission-based design, and less exploration and less of an open-world aspect to the game. We don't expect Skyrim here at all, but the linearity is off-putting. Stop holding our hands and pushing us in the direction you want us to go into. You also couldn't revisit areas.

- less customization. There were less skills to invest in, and less ways to customize them.

- You used the same gear for basically the entire game, except for weapons (and even then, as DLC's were released, even that didn't change much).

- choices didn't really mean much. ME2 basically plays the same no matter what you do, despite all the hype of its choices and consequences. The Witcher does this better, and you'd think Mass Effect would also want to achieve this.

In a lot of ways, I want the combat to be harder. I want to be challenged to use a wide-variety of skills at my disposal. But when I see people run and gun like an FPS, I get worried. I want deep gameplay. The demo really didn't provide it, and if that's what we ought to expect, than I am worried.

Also, the dialog and conversation choices were really, really bad as a whole. It's a big step down from the first 2 games, and other bioware titles. I mean, when compared to Origins... well, there is no comparison. It just plays like some blockbuster movie like Transformers... and that's a BAD thing IMO.

It would also be nice to have more stuff going on in space too. More to explore. More things going on... like other fleets/ships, and this sort of thing.

There's a lot they could do to add more RPG-like nature BACK into the game without getting rid of the more action-oriented combat from the second game.

[Yuqi]

ZOMG CHANGE

PRE-ORDER CANCELLED!

[izmirtheastarach]

egervari wrote...

But there was significant problems.

But all those problems were just problems for you, and people like you. To other people, they were improvements. And these people are fans too.

Modifié par izmirtheastarach, 17 février 2012 - 04:03 .

[VolusvsReaper]

egervari wrote...

VolusvsReaper wrote...

I honestly don't know what people want from a Bioware game...the "Hardcore" supporters either want the same ME1 boring horrible combat rinse repeat or they want a 100 hour game of stopping another blight. If you deviate from those paths they all cry "ITS GOING TO BE TERRIBLE" while the majority of us just stand here shaking our heads.

No, that's not it at all.

There was a lot of problems with ME1 too, and thankfully, ME2 fixed a great number of them, at least as far as combat goes.

But there was significant problems.

- Mission-based design, and less exploration and less of an open-world aspect to the game. We don't expect Skyrim here at all, but the linearity is off-putting. Stop holding our hands and pushing us in the direction you want us to go into. You also couldn't revisit areas.

- less customization. There were less skills to invest in, and less ways to customize them.

- You used the same gear for basically the entire game, except for weapons (and even then, as DLC's were released, even that didn't change much).

- choices didn't really mean much. ME2 basically plays the same no matter what you do, despite all the hype of its choices and consequences. The Witcher does this better, and you'd think Mass Effect would also want to achieve this.
In a lot of ways, I want the combat to be harder. I want to be challenged to use a wide-variety of skills at my disposal. But when I see people run and gun like an FPS, I get worried. I want deep gameplay. The demo really didn't provide it, and if that's what we ought to expect, than I am worried.

Also, the dialog and conversation choices were really, really bad as a whole. It's a big step down from the first 2 games, and other bioware titles. I mean, when compared to Origins... well, there is no comparison. It just plays like some blockbuster movie like Transformers... and that's a BAD thing IMO.

It would also be nice to have more stuff going on in space too. More to explore. More things going on... like other fleets/ships, and this sort of thing.

There's a lot they could do to add more RPG-like nature BACK into the game without getting rid of the more action-oriented combat from the second game.

Have you been following ME3 at all or? Not sure if srs...

[Travie]

JeffZero wrote...

izmirtheastarach wrote...

Travie wrote...

Yes, the larger fanbase is what they were shooting for, but they turned their back on their original audience in the process.

This is where you lose me. I AM PART OF THE ORIGINAL FANBASE. Am I some magical, mythical creature?

Makes two of us.

Well, obviously no fanbase is a great one headed beast.

We can just be glad that the RPG elements went back in, with some improvements.

[Travie]

egervari wrote...

VolusvsReaper wrote...

I honestly don't know what people want from a Bioware game...the "Hardcore" supporters either want the same ME1 boring horrible combat rinse repeat or they want a 100 hour game of stopping another blight. If you deviate from those paths they all cry "ITS GOING TO BE TERRIBLE" while the majority of us just stand here shaking our heads.

No, that's not it at all.

There was a lot of problems with ME1 too, and thankfully, ME2 fixed a great number of them, at least as far as combat goes.

But there was significant problems.

- Mission-based design, and less exploration and less of an open-world aspect to the game. We don't expect Skyrim here at all, but the linearity is off-putting. Stop holding our hands and pushing us in the direction you want us to go into. You also couldn't revisit areas.

- less customization. There were less skills to invest in, and less ways to customize them.

- You used the same gear for basically the entire game, except for weapons (and even then, as DLC's were released, even that didn't change much).

- choices didn't really mean much. ME2 basically plays the same no matter what you do, despite all the hype of its choices and consequences. The Witcher does this better, and you'd think Mass Effect would also want to achieve this.

In a lot of ways, I want the combat to be harder. I want to be challenged to use a wide-variety of skills at my disposal. But when I see people run and gun like an FPS, I get worried. I want deep gameplay. The demo really didn't provide it, and if that's what we ought to expect, than I am worried.

Also, the dialog and conversation choices were really, really bad as a whole. It's a big step down from the first 2 games, and other bioware titles. I mean, when compared to Origins... well, there is no comparison. It just plays like some blockbuster movie like Transformers... and that's a BAD thing IMO.

It would also be nice to have more stuff going on in space too. More to explore. More things going on... like other fleets/ships, and this sort of thing.

There's a lot they could do to add more RPG-like nature BACK into the game without getting rid of the more action-oriented combat from the second game.

Yeah, lack of exploration was a downer.

They did throw some in with the 'firewalker' DLC, but heres hope'n they make it more expansive this time.

[izmirtheastarach]

Travie wrote...

Well, obviously no fanbase is a great one headed beast.

We can just be glad that the RPG elements went back in, with some improvements.

And I am glad that you are glad, because I will enjoy it with those elements or without. Everybody wins.

[macdadams2]

Bioware is not your company to carry around in your pocket. And for someone who cares so much about story and character you are awfully hung up on the shooting elements.

Look, their marketing was terribly confusing and seemed to be built and designed to freak out long time fans, but have a little faith. The devs deserve it. They can't be blamed for out of touch marketers and Dietz.

[Mike Shepard]

I like First Person Shooters, but I like RPGs too. In fact, I like RPGs more. My favorite games are KOTOR, Mass Effect, Dragon Age Origins, and to a lesser extent Jak and Daxter. Their "target audience," as you put it, is gamers. they're not going to alienate potential new fans by keeping the same gameplay mechanics as the original game (I loved the original by the way, but the combat was rather clunky at times), because that is NO way to build a company. If I start a company and market my initial product to one group, then I am going to want to market my next product to that group AND an aditional group. I will try not to alienate existing customers, but I know that they know what my product is--reliable and useful, or in the case of video games: fun--and are more likely to buy my next offering; I am not going to alienate new clients by ignoring them entirely, either. it's how it works. they're focusing on action sequences in the marketing because they know that the existing user base understands what the series is--a story--and they want to show off what they've improved: the combat.

[DRUNK_CANADIAN]

egervari wrote...

DRUNK_CANADIAN wrote...

egervari wrote...

DRUNK_CANADIAN wrote...

Because FPS market is much more profitable?

Case and point, COD.

Fine, make a new IP for them then.

You miss the point, COD grew to the level it has today, by brand recognition, just like Final Fantasy games (which suck now since SE changed their design philosophy). Taking ME, a successful title, and making it slowly more mainstream to the point where it achieves the kind of recognition of COD/Battlefield/FF/etc. is exactly what they want.

Ironically I think they have Steam to thank for much of their PC success.

Than they should have started the Mass Effect series that way. Look at how much they destroyed the brand of Dragon Age by releasing the second game? How on earth was that a good investment for the brand? It wasn't. They made FAR LESS money:

http://www.escapistm...gon-Age-2-Sales

If they want to do what is best for them long-term, maybe satisfying us "minority" gamers might be in their best interest.

Not going to happen, in case you didn't notice, on stuff like this, the consumer takes a back seat.

Although I shouldn't reference this topic, use Origin as an example, very few gamers are in favor of it, most either oppose or at best are neutral to it, and yet still EA/Bioware makes it forced use for Mass Effect 3, despite much protest, just like with BF3, costing them lots of sales.

Ironically if they had still cooperated with steam they would have likely been much better in BF3 sales and reception, I doubt the ME3 result/response will be much different.

[RoboticWater]

egervari wrote...

VolusvsReaper wrote...

I honestly don't know what people want from a Bioware game...the "Hardcore" supporters either want the same ME1 boring horrible combat rinse repeat or they want a 100 hour game of stopping another blight. If you deviate from those paths they all cry "ITS GOING TO BE TERRIBLE" while the majority of us just stand here shaking our heads.

No, that's not it at all.

There was a lot of problems with ME1 too, and thankfully, ME2 fixed a great number of them, at least as far as combat goes.

But there was significant problems.

- Mission-based design, and less exploration and less of an open-world aspect to the game. We don't expect Skyrim here at all, but the linearity is off-putting. Stop holding our hands and pushing us in the direction you want us to go into. You also couldn't revisit areas.

Smaller scale meant more polish. I'm glad they went this route, it's better than going through the same 3 rooms each mission. I do miss exploration but if polish has to be lost because of more open terrain then I'm out.

- less customization. There were less skills to invest in, and less ways to customize them.

There may have been moer skills but ME 1 offered no way to customize them. ME 2 allowed you to evolve your powers, ME 1 just had more squares.

- You used the same gear for basically the entire game, except for weapons (and even then, as DLC's were released, even that didn't change much).

It's not much better than ME1's just pick the one with the highes number next to it or just get spectre gear. ME 2 may have had less guns and armor but the guns had actual uniqueness to them and armor was fully customizable.

- choices didn't really mean much. ME2 basically plays the same no matter what you do, despite all the hype of its choices and consequences. The Witcher does this better, and you'd think Mass Effect would also want to achieve this.

ME 1 had the same issue: nothing really effected the game much. I remember no time where I made a decision that had noticable effects.

In a lot of ways, I want the combat to be harder. I want to be challenged to use a wide-variety of skills at my disposal. But when I see people run and gun like an FPS, I get worried. I want deep gameplay. The demo really didn't provide it, and if that's what we ought to expect, than I am worried.

ME1 had more run and gun than any other installment in the series.

Also, the dialog and conversation choices were really, really bad as a whole. It's a big step down from the first 2 games, and other bioware titles. I mean, when compared to Origins... well, there is no comparison. It just plays like some blockbuster movie like Transformers... and that's a BAD thing IMO.

Devs confirmed that the lack of choices is exclusive to the demo.

It would also be nice to have more stuff going on in space too. More to explore. More things going on... like other fleets/ships, and this sort of thing.

There's a lot they could do to add more RPG-like nature BACK into the game without getting rid of the more action-oriented combat from the second game.

That's right and they have.

Modifié par BlahDog, 17 février 2012 - 04:16 .

[macdadams2]

adam1923 wrote...

gearseffect wrote...

adam1923 wrote...

You already are interested in the game, yes?

Marketing isn't for you. It's just the nature of the beast.

Yeah well sometimes when an industry feeds that beast and caters to it to the point of excluding everything else then said industry ends up with cookie cutter versions of some thing that was good until people no longer know what was good and what is bad cheap knock offs. Each Copy Cat is less original and waters down the entire industry and soon people wake up say wise up to the con and quite buying anything that is assosiated with said genre. But the ****** suits don't ever notice that they are spending more money than they are making and the whole works eats itself from the inside out.

It's happened before and due to my love for the things being ruined for the sake of mainstreaming for more sells I will never get tired of seeing people throwing it out there that they are not happy about it.

I would give the OP a Hand Shake, Huge, Round of Applause, and thank you. It is good to see that some people don't give a poop about offending the powers that be, and view it as a sacred cow.

To you my good friend for having the Balls to Stand Up and Post This.
I have gone on many rants about this sort of selling out and It is good to see somebody else who is just as alarmed about it as I am.

I am not a fan of the beast. However, until we find a way to get around it. There won't be much change. Mass Effect has a historically high budget. This budget is due to "the powers that be" If mass effect didn't have the afforementioned budget. I'm sure it wouldn't be the same game. Now, I can't argue that it would be a lesser game. 

I wish it weren't that way, sadly it is. 

I'm wholly convinced that some of you have your mind made up. The game could come out, and prove to have truly perfected the story telling (the part that I agree matters) and you will find SOMETHING wrong with it. You all are spoiling the experience for yourselves with negativity before you even truly know.

Of course I'm sure you think you already know.