49 réponses à ce sujet

[Blood broker 1.1]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

ADHD doesn't even factor in, you can function fine with it.

Yeah, they have pills for that.

In a lot of cases you don't even need them and it, in my experience, is one of the most overused diagnosese in psychiatry. If a kid doesn't care about school and/or is particularly rambunctious due to bad parenting they can sometimes be diagnosed with ADHD, even if they don't have it.

Then when they get put on the proper medication for that disorder (which is a stimulant for those who know what that does) they get worse since they don't actually have it.

True; although I know someone who legimately has it, and for whom the medication made a big difference, particularly with his performance at school.
god the side effect were muder wetting the bed, not sleeping at all or sleeping too much , weigh gain  and loss and moddy swings are just a few

[GuardianAngel470]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

ADHD doesn't even factor in, you can function fine with it.

Yeah, they have pills for that.

In a lot of cases you don't even need them and it, in my experience, is one of the most overused diagnosese in psychiatry. If a kid doesn't care about school and/or is particularly rambunctious due to bad parenting they can sometimes be diagnosed with ADHD, even if they don't have it.

Then when they get put on the proper medication for that disorder (which is a stimulant for those who know what that does) they get worse since they don't actually have it.

True; although I know someone who legimately has it, and for whom the medication made a big difference, particularly with his performance at school.

They wouldn't use the meds if they didn't work when they were supposed to.

Anyway, on the off chance the OP's consistent trolling efforts are going to be ignored for a bit longer, I will say that yes, it does matter if certain characters are suddenly turned gay.

The reason being is that certain characters, not all characters from both games, have had zero leadup for such a change. If, in two games, Garrus has expressed zero interest in pursuing a relationship with Mshep and Shepard, in two games, has expressed zero interest in the same, suddenly making Garrus gay would be a literary cop out and would defy all reasonable definitions of storytelling.

In order for any romantic relationship, friendship, mutual repulsion, or hatred to be believable in any sort of story there absolutely needs to be some form of lead up. Even if it's just a suggestive use of camera angles (Like with Kaiden).

Garrus and Wrex had no such thing in either game. Thus, it would make no sense for them to suddenly epxress interest in the final act of a trilogy.

[ElitePinecone]

OP, I've replied to you in the other main s/s thread.

In the future if you have questions, take them there instead of making a new topic.

[GuardianAngel470]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Anyway, on the off chance the OP's consistent trolling efforts are going to be ignored for a bit longer, I will say that yes, it does matter if certain characters are suddenly turned gay.

The reason being is that certain characters, not all characters from both games, have had zero leadup for such a change. If, in two games, Garrus has expressed zero interest in pursuing a relationship with Mshep and Shepard, in two games, has expressed zero interest in the same, suddenly making Garrus gay would be a literary cop out and would defy all reasonable definitions of storytelling.

To be totally fair, Garrus wasn't interested in FemShep in ME1, but was in ME2.

Which is fine. Game 1 to game 2 is fine as you've had an entire previous game to establish a relationship.

Game 1 to game 3 doesn't make sense. It's the conclusion; you can't introduce a story arc like that involving characters from the first game in the conclusion of the series without having some sort of lead up.

Kaiden works because of that suggestive start to conversations in ME1. It may not have been intentional, but it provides an opening that Bioware can take advantage of.

Tali works because she says the same suggestive line to Femshep in ME2 as she does to Mshep. Liara is already spoken for.

Wrex, Ashley, and Garrus don't make sense because there has been zero romantic leadup for S/S in either game.

[DrBobcat]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Anyway,
on the off chance the OP's consistent trolling efforts are going to be
ignored for a bit longer, I will say that yes, it does matter if certain
characters are suddenly turned gay.

The reason being is that
certain characters, not all characters from both games, have had zero
leadup for such a change. If, in two games, Garrus has expressed zero
interest in pursuing a relationship with Mshep and Shepard, in two
games, has expressed zero interest in the same, suddenly making Garrus
gay would be a literary cop out and would defy all reasonable
definitions of storytelling.

To be totally fair, Garrus wasn't interested in FemShep in ME1, but was in ME2.

Which is fine. Game 1 to game 2 is fine as you've had an entire previous game to establish a relationship.

Game1 to game 3 doesn't make sense. It's the conclusion; you can't introduce a story arc like that involving characters from the first gamein the conclusion of the series without having some sort of lead up.

Kaiden works because of that suggestive start to conversations in ME1. It may not have been intentional, but it provides an opening that Bioware can take advantage of.

Tali works because she says the same suggestive line to Femshep in ME2 as she does to Mshep. Liara is already spoken for.

Wrex, Ashley, and Garrus don't make sense because there has been zero romantic leadup for S/S in either game.

I'd like to follow-up on what Cthulhu42 said. The events of Mass Effect 2 took place over the course of a few months (Shepard's death and resurrection excluded, of course). Also, what's to stop a more "professional" Shepard from sidelining his/her personal relationships until he/she is more comfortable? Some people are more vocal about their feelings, while others are more reserved. It's completely possible (reasonable even) to roleplay a Shepard who waits until the third game to confess his/her feelings for Garrus. And, as Cthulhu said, keep in mind that Garrus did not pursue Shepard in ME2, she pursued him. He agreed to go through with the relationship because he respects and trusts her, not because he finds her physically attractive (he explicitly says as much). Last time I checked, femShep didn't have a monopoly on Garrus' trust and respect. Therefore, we can reasonably conclude that Shepard's sex is irrelevant as far as a romantic relationship is concerned (let's not discuss the matter of sexual intercourse as we lack the data necessary to do so sufficiently).

Which is fine. Game 1 to game 2 is fine as you've had an entire previous game to establish a relationship.

Game1 to game 3 doesn't make sense. It's the conclusion; you can't introduce a story arc like that involving characters from the first gamein the conclusion of the series without having some sort of lead up.

I was not aware such a rule existed. As I mentioned above, it is possible to roleplay a male Shepard who waits until ME3 to confront Garrus (and still have it make sense). How? Easy. Imagine a male Shepard who cares about Garrus a great deal but has put his feelings aside for the sake of the mission. Even so, Shepard understands that the Reapers are a far greater threat than anything they have faced before and, with them now attacking civilizations across the galaxy, he realizes that he cannot wait any longer. He then confronts Garrus and tells him everything. How does Garrus react? I believe he'd respond the same way he did to fShep in ME2: "Why the hell not? There's nobody in this galaxy I respect more than you." and "I'm not going to pretend I've got a fetish for humans... but this isn't about that. This is about us." The romance would progress in much the same fashion as it does for female Shepard. The only difference is that it is delayed.

Remember, Garrus' relationship with fShep is completely identical to mShep's up until the point at which fShep suggests that they become something more. Male Shepard was never given the option to do this and, therefore, Garrus was never given a chance to respond. All the evidence available to us (see above) suggests that he would respond to a male Shepard's advances just as favorably.

Modifié par DrBobcat, 17 février 2012 - 09:25 .

[GuardianAngel470]

DrBobcat wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Anyway,
on the off chance the OP's consistent trolling efforts are going to be
ignored for a bit longer, I will say that yes, it does matter if certain
characters are suddenly turned gay.

The reason being is that
certain characters, not all characters from both games, have had zero
leadup for such a change. If, in two games, Garrus has expressed zero
interest in pursuing a relationship with Mshep and Shepard, in two
games, has expressed zero interest in the same, suddenly making Garrus
gay would be a literary cop out and would defy all reasonable
definitions of storytelling.

To be totally fair, Garrus wasn't interested in FemShep in ME1, but was in ME2.

Which is fine. Game 1 to game 2 is fine as you've had an entire previous game to establish a relationship.

Game1 to game 3 doesn't make sense. It's the conclusion; you can't introduce a story arc like that involving characters from the first gamein the conclusion of the series without having some sort of lead up.

Kaiden works because of that suggestive start to conversations in ME1. It may not have been intentional, but it provides an opening that Bioware can take advantage of.

Tali works because she says the same suggestive line to Femshep in ME2 as she does to Mshep. Liara is already spoken for.

Wrex, Ashley, and Garrus don't make sense because there has been zero romantic leadup for S/S in either game.

I'd like to follow-up on what Cthulhu42 said. The events of Mass Effect 2 took place over the course of a few months (Shepard's death and resurrection excluded, of course). Also, what's to stop a more "professional" Shepard from sidelining his/her personal relationships until he/she is more comfortable? Some people are more vocal about their feelings, while others are more reserved. It's completely possible (reasonable even) to roleplay a Shepard who waits until the third game to confess his/her feelings for Garrus. And, as Cthulhu said, keep in mind that Garrus did not pursue Shepard in ME2, she pursued him. He agreed to go through with the relationship because he respects and trusts her, not because he finds her physically attractive (he explicitly says as much). Last time I checked, femShep didn't have a monopoly on Garrus' trust and respect. Therefore, we can reasonably conclude that Shepard's sex is irrelevant as far as a romantic relationship is concerned (let's not discuss the matter of sexual intercourse as we lack the data necessary to do so sufficiently).

Which is fine. Game 1 to game 2 is fine as you've had an entire previous game to establish a relationship.

Game1 to game 3 doesn't make sense. It's the conclusion; you can't introduce a story arc like that involving characters from the first gamein the conclusion of the series without having some sort of lead up.

I was not aware such a rule existed. As I mentioned above, it is possible to roleplay a male Shepard who waits until ME3 to confront Garrus (and still have it make sense). How? Easy. Imagine a male Shepard who cares about Garrus a great deal but has put his feelings aside for the sake of the mission. Even so, Shepard understands that the Reapers are a far greater threat than anything they have faced before and, with them now attacking civilizations across the galaxy, he realizes that he cannot wait any longer. He then confronts Garrus and tells him everything. How does Garrus react? I believe he'd respond the same way he did to fShep in ME2: "Why the hell not? There's nobody in this galaxy I respect more than you." and "I'm not going to pretend I've got a fetish for humans... but this isn't about that. This is about us." The romance would progress in much the same fashion as it does for female Shepard. The only difference is that it is delayed.

Remember, Garrus' relationship with fShep is completely identical to mShep's up until the point at which fShep suggests that they become something more. Male Shepard was never given the option to do this and, therefore, Garrus was never given a chance to respond. All the evidence available to us (see above) suggests that he would respond to a male Shepard's advances just as favorably.

You can roleplay that, but isn't valid from a storytelling perspective. That wouldn't be Shepard abstaining, it would be you abstaining, and you didn't write the game. My point is that the game has presented nothing to support that such a relationship is possible in two entire games in which the character existed in both.

Let me give an example. You can roleplay that your Shepard actually sneaks visits to Garrus's quarters and sleeps with him consistently throughout the series, but that would be your own projection onto the game and not the game's conveyance. At no point in the game is this mentioned.

Theoretically you can roleplay anything but nothing you come up with is considered universally a part of the story and characters.

I'll rephrase my point for you since I know I'm not being particularly clear. This isn't really about Shepard. This is about Garrus, the character. Garrus is something outside of our control completely. He exists as his own entity and he has his own biases, beliefs, and standards. I point out that Shepard doesn't say anything but it's really largely irrelevant whether he does or doesn't. Making Garrus suddenly gay in the final act of this trilogy would be a literary cop out because it would be done without any sort of lead up or allusion.

When Femshep got the opportunity to romance Garrus Mshep didn't. It was possible to romance him in ME2 but only if you played as a female Shepard. Going from ME1 to ME2 you have a believable lead up. Comradery created in ME1 carries over into ME2 but with the addition of the loyalty mission. Garrus and Shepard never mentioning any attraction in ME1 is believable because it is discussed in ME2 after the friendship built on mutual respect becomes something more.

Bioware had the opportunity to make Garrus bisexual. They had the opportunity to make Garrus available to Mshep in ME2 but they didn't take it. Everything that was true for Femshep was also true for Mshep at that time. If they had done it, it would have made sense for the same reasons that it made sense for Femshep.

But that opportunity is gone. By choosing not to take advantage of that opportunity, Bioware have essentially established that Garrus is not bisexual; that he is heterosexual. Yes it was Shepard that initiated that dialog but the fact that Mshep didn't have the option at all does not mean that he was abstaining as you believe. It simply means that Bioware chose not to take that path when they could.

If Shepard were suddenly given the option to romance Garrus as a male the question would become why didn't he ask in ME2 when femshep did? What possible rationale could Mshep have that Femshep didn't?

There is no universal, canonical answer to that question. The opportunity existed for both genders and only one was available. As such making Garrus gay in ME3 would be a cop out.

[Game_Fan_85]

When is the sexual habits and practices of the Turian race ever mentioned in any Mass Effect game? Where does it say they have to be gay *or* straight? Pushing one's own view of the world onto a fictional character and species seems a bit silly to me. Just because Garrus mentioned sleeping with a woman once and was available to femShep and not mShep is not conclusive evidence that Garrus has to be straight. It was SHEPARD that could not express being gay in the first and second game so how could there be anything with Garrus?

He is by far my favourite character in the series and I think it would be interesting to see him as an s/s option because it would be so different, apart from wanting a deeper connection to the character and his story. I think there 0.01% chance of it happening, but as I said, it would be interesting.

Also, I appoligise if there is in fact information about the Turians provided somewhere in the game that I missed.

[ElitePinecone]

I don't think so - it's only a cop-out if it's not justified.

Writing, and Bioware's, motivation contrived to make Garrus available to femShep in ME2, against all plausibility ('cause, y'know, they're different species). Writing could easily make any character available to Shepard, if it had an explanation as to why the opportunity was never taken up on in the past. Something similar is used to explain the 'new' romances with Ashley or Kaidan in ME3.

Would it be the strongest writing in the world? Probably not. But it could be done.

(this point is moot in any case, no ME2 characters are available for new romances)

[GuardianAngel470]

ElitePinecone wrote...

I don't think so - it's only a cop-out if it's not justified.

Writing, and Bioware's, motivation contrived to make Garrus available to femShep in ME2, against all plausibility ('cause, y'know, they're different species). Writing could easily make any character available to Shepard, if it had an explanation as to why the opportunity was never taken up on in the past. Something similar is used to explain the 'new' romances with Ashley or Kaidan in ME3.

Would it be the strongest writing in the world? Probably not. But it could be done.

(this point is moot in any case, no ME2 characters are available for new romances)

Actually, that's exactly why it would be a cop-out. You can't write anything convincing to explain why neither Shepard nor Garrus expressed any interest in ME1 or ME2. You could write explanations all day long but at the end of the day you just can't explain away that inconsistency.

[Centauri2002]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Actually, that's exactly why it would be a cop-out. You can't write anything convincing to explain why neither Shepard nor Garrus expressed any interest in ME1 or ME2. You could write explanations all day long but at the end of the day you just can't explain away that inconsistency.

Real life example:

You've known someone for two years. You've only ever had a platonic relationship with that person. In the third year, you start to realise you have feelings for that person. Are your feelings invalid because you didn't develop or realise these beforehand?

Edited to add: And it's quite possible the other person involved wouldn't have voiced anything either. Perhaps they didn't think it appropriate or that they ever stood a chance? Or maybe the new revelation has made them consider you in a new light. 

Modifié par centauri2002, 17 février 2012 - 11:34 .

[ElitePinecone]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...

I don't think so - it's only a cop-out if it's not justified.

Writing, and Bioware's, motivation contrived to make Garrus available to femShep in ME2, against all plausibility ('cause, y'know, they're different species). Writing could easily make any character available to Shepard, if it had an explanation as to why the opportunity was never taken up on in the past. Something similar is used to explain the 'new' romances with Ashley or Kaidan in ME3.

Would it be the strongest writing in the world? Probably not. But it could be done.

(this point is moot in any case, no ME2 characters are available for new romances)

Actually, that's exactly why it would be a cop-out. You can't write anything convincing to explain why neither Shepard nor Garrus expressed any interest in ME1 or ME2. You could write explanations all day long but at the end of the day you just can't explain away that inconsistency.

From your perspective it's an inconsistency, yes. 

From an in-universe perspective? FemShep doesn't exist in maleShep's universe. 

All of the arguments used to justify femShep/Garrus can be easily applied to mShep/Garrus - the time differences are irrelevant. 

If the answer to "why ddin't Garrus or femShep say anything in ME1" is "they didn't realise the connection then", the length of time doesn't matter. Events and perceptions do - at least, the way it was written from Bioware's perspective. 

If you can accept that after seeing her in action during ME1, Garrus developed an attraction to femShep, you can accept - hypothetically - that seeing mShep in action during ME/ME2 developed an attraction. 

And if your question is then "why didn't either of them say anything in ME2", I'd respond with exactly the same reason Bioware gave to explain why neither Garrus or femShep said anything in ME1 - there was no attraction then. Things take time. Reach and flexibility, yadda yadda. 

It's contrived, sure, but if you got rid of contrived romances Bioware's games would be quite empty. 

[Game_Fan_85]

It took Anders 3 years to tell Hawke he had the hots for him so why not Garrus?

[DrBobcat]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

You can roleplay that, but isn't valid from a storytelling perspective. That wouldn't be Shepard abstaining, it would be you abstaining, and you didn't write the game. My point is that the game has presented nothing to support that such a relationship is possible in two entire games in which the character existed in both.

Let me give an example. You can roleplay that your Shepard actually sneaks visits to Garrus's quarters and sleeps with him consistently throughout the series, but that would be your own projection onto the game and not the game's conveyance. At no point in the game is this mentioned.

Theoretically you can roleplay anything but nothing you come up with is considered universally a part of the story and characters.

Are you contending that Shepard cannot hold a certain set of beliefs or like certain things because he/she never had the opportunity to declare such? Because an option on the dialogue wheel is absent? Need I point out how incredibly prohibitive that is?

Yes, it would be virtually impossible to roleplay a male Shepard who frequently sleeps with Garrus as there's nothing in the game presented to suggest this is taking place. I agree with you. However, there is nothing shown in the game that suggests Shepard could not be infatuated with Garrus in secret. Why must everything be explicitly stated?

I'll rephrase my point for you since I know I'm not being particularly clear. This isn't really about Shepard. This is about Garrus, the character. Garrus is something outside of our control completely. He exists as his own entity and he has his own biases, beliefs, and standards. I point out that Shepard doesn't say anything but it's really largely irrelevant whether he does or doesn't. Making Garrus suddenly gay in the final act of this trilogy would be a literary cop out because it would be done without any sort of lead up or allusion.

When Femshep got the opportunity to romance Garrus Mshep didn't. It was possible to romance him in ME2 but only if you played as a female Shepard. Going from ME1 to ME2 you have a believable lead up. Comradery created in ME1 carries over into ME2 but with the addition of the loyalty mission. Garrus and Shepard never mentioning any attraction in ME1 is believable because it is discussed in ME2 after the friendship built on mutual respect becomes something more.

Why would any lead up or allusion be necessary now when it wasn't necessary between ME1 and ME2 (for fShep)? Why was Shepard's last chance in ME2? Why can't their friendship continue to grow throughout ME2, but change in ME3? The line you've drawn seems arbitrary.

Bioware had the opportunity to make Garrus bisexual. They had the opportunity to make Garrus available to Mshep in ME2 but they didn't take it. Everything that was true for Femshep was also true for Mshep at that time. If they had done it, it would have made sense for the same reasons that it made sense for Femshep.

But that opportunity is gone. By choosing not to take advantage of that opportunity, Bioware have essentially established that Garrus is not bisexual; that he is heterosexual.

Simply because the dialogue option was absent does not mean Garrus is straight (note: I'm not saying he isn't. He very well could be. I am merely pointing out that it's a possibility).

Yes it was Shepard that initiated that dialog but the fact that Mshep didn't have the option at all does not mean that he was abstaining as you believe.

I can roleplay my Shepard any way I see fit so long as it works within the confines of the narrative. The scenario in question fits just fine.

It simply means that Bioware chose not to take that path when they could.

Garrus and Tali could not be romanced in ME1, yet they can in ME2. The writing held up. The world didn't come to an end. What's stopping Bioware from doing it again in ME3? If you simply doubt their competence, that is fine. I, however, believe they could write a romance plot between Garrus and mShep and have it makes sense.

If Shepard were suddenly given the option to romance Garrus as a male the question would become why didn't he ask in ME2 when femshep did? What possible rationale could Mshep have that Femshep didn't?

There is no universal, canonical answer to that question. The opportunity existed for both genders and only one was available. As such making Garrus gay in ME3 would be a cop out.

Shepard's rationale, regardless of the situation, is something both the player and Bioware construct. So long as the player does not contradict Bioware, the plot remains intact. Bioware could very well make Garrus a s/s romance option in ME3 and keep it believable. Like I said before, think of it as nothing more than a delayed version of fShep's romance from ME2.

centauri2002 wrote...

Real life example:

You've known someone for two years. You've only ever had a platonic relationship with that person. In the third year, you start to realise you have feelings for that person. Are your feelings invalid because you didn't develop or realise these beforehand?

Edited to add: And it's quite possible the other person involved wouldn't have voiced anything either. Perhaps they didn't think it appropriate or that they ever stood a chance? Or maybe the new revelation has made them consider you in a new light.

I like this human! She understands!

Modifié par DrBobcat, 17 février 2012 - 12:57 .

[Eradyn]

...Seriously? You guys are getting into flame wars/"discussions" on this joke of a troll's thread? I'd facepalm but I've already met my quota. How disappointingly predictable; BSN, you never fail to live up to your rep.

[Yuqi]

Learn English.

The End.

[Blood broker 1.1]

Yuqi wrote...

Learn English.

The End.

just die already sorry that i don't write well

[Demonique]

true but somethings don't get easlier with time ok. So how would you react if garrus went gay

I wouldnt' care as my ManShep is hoping Garrus is gunning for his ass.


Anyway, he wouldn't be going gay, he'd be bisexual and he hasn't said anything about his sexuality other than he had sex with a woman once and he's open to a relationship with FemShep, we don't know if he's had sex with other men in the past.


As for Wrex, if he's completely straight he probably wouldn't care if someone thought he was gay, he's got more important things to worry about.

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

[Demonique]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Bioware had the opportunity to make Garrus bisexual. They had the opportunity to make Garrus available to Mshep in ME2 but they didn't take it. Everything that was true for Femshep was also true for Mshep at that time. If they had done it, it would have made sense for the same reasons that it made sense for Femshep.

But that opportunity is gone. By choosing not to take advantage of that opportunity, Bioware have essentially established that Garrus is not bisexual; that he is heterosexual. Yes it was Shepard that initiated that dialog but the fact that Mshep didn't have the option at all does not mean that he was abstaining as you believe. It simply means that Bioware chose not to take that path when they could.

If Shepard were suddenly given the option to romance Garrus as a male the question would become why didn't he ask in ME2 when femshep did? What possible rationale could Mshep have that Femshep didn't?

There is no universal, canonical answer to that question. The opportunity existed for both genders and only one was available. As such making Garrus gay in ME3 would be a cop out.

Oh for frak sake, BW didn't make ANY male available to ManShep in ME2

Why do you have such a problem with Garrus being bisexual in ME3?

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

ElitePinecone wrote...

It's contrived, sure, but if you got rid of contrived romances Bioware's games would be quite empty. 

I think the solution is to make the games less empty, not to add more contrived romances.

Modifié par Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut, 19 février 2012 - 06:57 .

[TheChris92]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
Theoretically you can roleplay anything but nothing you come up with is considered universally a part of the story and characters.

Thought I would jump in here. You say that as if there was nothing more to learn about the characters, as if you can't flesh out their characters more in ME3. We don't fully know everything, and especially not about Ashley and Kaidan, for instance, whom both are very talked about in the S/S perspective. We know those two specific characters have come far since ME1, and I can't imagine them sharing everything with Shepard in the first game, otherwise there wouldn't be a point in bringing them back in ME3. People don't openly express what they fancy to people, because it shouldn't matter, as love is love. It's a role playing game, why shouldn't you be allowed to have your character fancy whatever he/she wants. In DA2 one could say that Fenris is homosexual, if you made advances at him as male Hawke, while if you play a female Hawke then he'll never bring it up thus one would consider him hetero sexual etc. It's different from character to character, it's there as an option which can be completely ignored should the player choose to do so. I don't see what the problem is.

Modifié par TheChris92, 21 février 2012 - 11:14 .