262 réponses à ce sujet

[Han Shot First]

ddv.rsa wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Sofia Lamb wrote...

It is only genocide when the quarians do it. When the geth start killing organics it is only in "self-defense"

Actually no.  The Quarians tried with deliberate aforethought to eradicate an entire race of sentient life.  That is the very definition of genocide.  The Geth while hardly having clean hands, never made it a policy to eradicate an entire race that was sentient.  Thus it is not genocide.  [Now the Heretics in following Saren WERE guilty of attempted genocide, but those aren't true Geth.]

-Polaris

It's only genocide if you accept AIs as life.
.

I personally don't believe that machines will ever achieve sapience in the real world. But the Geth in the Mass Effect universe are clearly sapient.

As such they would have as much right to exist as sapient organic species.

[double02]

Well, at least they'll be prepared more so than before.

[Nashiktal]

ddv.rsa wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Sofia Lamb wrote...

It is only genocide when the quarians do it. When the geth start killing organics it is only in "self-defense"

Actually no.  The Quarians tried with deliberate aforethought to eradicate an entire race of sentient life.  That is the very definition of genocide.  The Geth while hardly having clean hands, never made it a policy to eradicate an entire race that was sentient.  Thus it is not genocide.  [Now the Heretics in following Saren WERE guilty of attempted genocide, but those aren't true Geth.]

-Polaris

It's only genocide if you accept AIs as life.

And what do you mean the heretics WERE guilty? They ARE guilty. You make it sound as if they reformed.

AI's? The geth were not even ai's. That's why the quarians were so scared. The geth were essentially really advanced VI's that somehow started glitching and caused a panic in a few quarians.


People don't seem to get what a big deal this was. The geth were integrated in every facet of quarian society. From everything as big and important as military units (drones, soldiers, vehicles), industry (factories, quarries, etc), to personal home use (personal assistants, computers, toasters for crying out loud!)

When your military equipment starts having a mind of its own, when your robot (which were not , and never designed to be AI) suddenly out of the blue starts talking, you don't consider it a person. You turn it off to find out what malfunctions, and when the malfunction happens to be something that is integrated in every facet of your species... Your damn right you immediately stop any potential problems before they arise.

So when the military tries to shut down some of the units, when the factory workers tries to find out whats wrong with their assembly line, its fine when the entire quarian race gets slaughtered? All those civilians who had nothing to do with the decision to even shut down the geth? All those people who simply wanted to know what was wrong with their computer?

Its not black and white of course. The geth were extremely new to this whole "existing" thing, they barely had a handle on their own existence. But painting the quarians as horrible people for what they did is using hindsight, something the quarians then didn't have.

And the damn geth would agree, legion even calls shep a racist for trying to apply organic values to his people. Getting up in arms for the geth will do nothing but earn their disdain.

[Nashiktal]

Han Shot First wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Sofia Lamb wrote...

It is only genocide when the quarians do it. When the geth start killing organics it is only in "self-defense"

Actually no.  The Quarians tried with deliberate aforethought to eradicate an entire race of sentient life.  That is the very definition of genocide.  The Geth while hardly having clean hands, never made it a policy to eradicate an entire race that was sentient.  Thus it is not genocide.  [Now the Heretics in following Saren WERE guilty of attempted genocide, but those aren't true Geth.]

-Polaris

It's only genocide if you accept AIs as life.
.

I personally don't believe that machines will ever achieve sapience in the real world. But the Geth in the Mass Effect universe are clearly sapient.

As such they would have as much right to exist as sapient organic species.

and I would agree. But to say the quarians were commiting genocide would be to ignore the fact that the geth were not even A.I., let alone considered a sapient species.

[WidowMaker9394]

The Quarians just became a huge force to be reckoned with. One that could help fight the Reapers. That is if they do not attack the Geth instead....

[Homey C-Dawg]

I guess we know where the quarians got the weaponry to orbitally bombard that one reaper.

[GroverA 125]

This I don't understand, virtually 95% of all quarians are sat in a bunch of ships with absolutely no alternative home. If their ships are inadequately protected, then they will be destroyed and a percentage of their population identical to a planet could be killed. It stands to reason that they would want/need bigger weapons to fend off any form of hostilities with. A cargo transport doesn't need big guns because it's carrying <100 men and a bit of cargo. A quarian liveship needs big guns because if it doesn't have any, then the amount of civilians that would be killed would leave a noticable dent in their population.

[Wulfram]

Of course, a big gun doesn't make a liveship a proper dreadnought. 
They'll still lack point defence, shielding, heat management and
maneuverability.  Quarians are good at bodging things, so they may be
able to do something about it.  But they'll be limited by the ability of their drive cores to supply power if nothing else.

GroverA 125 wrote...

This I don't understand, virtually 95% of all quarians are sat in a bunch of ships with absolutely no alternative home. If their ships are inadequately protected, then they will be destroyed and a percentage of their population identical to a planet could be killed. It stands to reason that they would want/need bigger weapons to fend off any form of hostilities with. A cargo transport doesn't need big guns because it's carrying <100 men and a bit of cargo. A quarian liveship needs big guns because if it doesn't have any, then the amount of civilians that would be killed would leave a noticable dent in their population.

Dreadnoughts probably aren't the most useful type of ship for fighting off the sort of threats the Quarian's have faced.  They're for major fleet engagements, not fighting off slavers and pirates.

Plus, you'd rather send other ships to fight off the enemy and keep your civilians safe

Modifié par Wulfram, 18 février 2012 - 12:30 .

[Tony_Knightcrawler]

Alliance News Networkwrote...

“The Migrant Fleet has always lived on the edge of criminality,” popular
blogger Feyro Derlan said. “But adding an axial gun to a liveship
that’s who-knows-how-many kilometers long? That’s not a cause for worry,
that’s terror worth soiling your pants over.”

But, you can't add an axial gun to an already-complete starship and have it be sound; the ship has to be built around it.

Modifié par Tony_Knightcrawler, 18 février 2012 - 12:39 .

[Bad King]

A good article, touched on some of the codex lore and confirmed that the quarians are gearing up for war with the geth and the reapers.

[Legbiter]

A quarian stole my friend’s credit chit while he was on the Citadel.

[McAllyster]

Council is just a bunch of idiots (including Udina). They have no rights for asking anyone, anything.

[JRCHOharry]

Legbiter wrote...

A quarian stole my friend’s credit chit while he was on the Citadel.

Filthy vagrant!

Did your friend put that Quarian in it's place?

[Reever]

This whole discussion about genocides is kind of dumb.

If you take Legion´s words for granted and say you can´t juge AI Life like normal life, then you can´t say it´s genocide if Machines kill organics. Because they don´t think the same as us. They just get rid of those who attacked them. So freakin let go of those double standards.

If you choose to ignore Legion, and think of Geth as sentient life, then what the Quarians have done is Genocide (or attempted, we do not know how many Geth were destroyed.). But then the same holds true for the Geth as well.

In wars people die. And in this particular war, we had one party who tried to eradicate the other, and one which defended themselves (at least that´s what we know atm.). Clearly, the Geth exaggerated, but by their norms and understanding (we know they don´t quite understand us, even 300 years later) this massacre wouldn´t have been "that bad".

Lastly, it´s a video game and not the real world. Chill out.

Modifié par BlueDemonX, 18 février 2012 - 02:16 .

[Travie]

McAllyster wrote...

Council is just a bunch of idiots (including Udina). They have no rights for asking anyone, anything.

You humans always were fools, you never should have been granted a seat on the council in the firstplace.

[Justicar]

didymos1120 wrote...
Those weren't liveships:

http://www.youtube.c...KKOV_gA#t=1m05s

Oh ****

I can't tell if they're attacking the Geth
or attacking WITH them

My geth :'(

[Martin the Warrior]

Nashiktal wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Sofia Lamb wrote...

It is only genocide when the quarians do it. When the geth start killing organics it is only in "self-defense"

Actually no.  The Quarians tried with deliberate aforethought to eradicate an entire race of sentient life.  That is the very definition of genocide.  The Geth while hardly having clean hands, never made it a policy to eradicate an entire race that was sentient.  Thus it is not genocide.  [Now the Heretics in following Saren WERE guilty of attempted genocide, but those aren't true Geth.]

-Polaris

It's only genocide if you accept AIs as life.
.

I personally don't believe that machines will ever achieve sapience in the real world. But the Geth in the Mass Effect universe are clearly sapient.

As such they would have as much right to exist as sapient organic species.

and I would agree. But to say the quarians were commiting genocide would be to ignore the fact that the geth were not even A.I., let alone considered a sapient species.

Not individually, but the Quarians didn't anticipate that the neural network would eventually give the Geth enough combined brainpower for independent and abstract thought.  A single Geth program is a simple VI, but a thousand Geth programs operating interconnectedly are sapient.

And once again, the Council sees smoke but can't find the fire.  It's frustrating, but as long as they realize what's really going on before the galaxy loses all hope of defeating the Reapers, they still have some use.  Unless they get killed by the Reapers or by Cerberus.

[Yakko77]

You tell'em Han'Gerrel!!!!!

Besides, we're going to need all the firepower we can get against the Reapers.

[Yakko77]

Justicar wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...
Those weren't liveships:

http://www.youtube.c...KKOV_gA#t=1m05s

Oh ****

I can't tell if they're attacking the Geth
or attacking WITH them

My geth :'(

I was wondering the source of the cannons as well.

[Yakko77]

Nashiktal wrote...
And the damn geth would agree, legion even calls shep a racist for trying to apply organic values to his people. Getting up in arms for the geth will do nothing but earn their disdain.

I'm not sure if I ever got Legion to say anything like that.  I did get "him" to say someting along the lines of they view the "Morning War" as a mistake.  So much so to the point that they don't technically occupy the Quarian homeworld but treat it like a war memorial comparable to Arlington National Cemetary and Auschwitz-Birkenau.

[eye basher]

Yakko77 wrote...

You tell'em Han'Gerrel!!!!!

Besides, we're going to need all the firepower we can get against the Reapers.

i don't think arming a few junk heaps with guns is gonna help much.

[Eradyn]

Vapaä wrote...

What happened to the Quarians could have happen with any species developping AI tech, they played with fire and they got burned hard, but 300 years of exil for an entire species is enough punishment

I support Geth/Quarian alliance !

It's a self-imposed exile and a punishment of their own choosing. In the meantime, they've been inconveniencing and endangering other species since, all while waving the victim card and making "woe is me" excuses for why they'd rather not make a serious effort to find a new homeworld (if only temporarily). No, they'd rather strip-mine whole star systems and dump their garbage and criminals on other species' worlds, make half-assed and suicidal attacks on beings they already grievously wronged, than buck up and establish a colony to save their species (or at least try honest diplomacy). And it only gets worse in ME2, because you see just how ridiculous and blood-thirsty they are. They would risk further endangering other organic species, and their own, in their quest for absolute war and enslavement of others than to do something smart for their own people (which would also benefit all other organic life on several fronts). No, the quarians are an incredibly foolish, selfish, and short-sighted species with few notable exceptions. If they refuse to heed Zaal'Koris' advice, it will only cement that further. No, I don't think the quarians will finally try peace with the geth. It will take Shepard's magical powers of persuasion to do what trained diplomats could not.

Modifié par Eradyn, 18 février 2012 - 04:58 .

[Yakko77]

Tony_Knightcrawler wrote...

Alliance News Networkwrote...

“The Migrant Fleet has always lived on the edge of criminality,” popular
blogger Feyro Derlan said. “But adding an axial gun to a liveship
that’s who-knows-how-many kilometers long? That’s not a cause for worry,
that’s terror worth soiling your pants over.”

But, you can't add an axial gun to an already-complete starship and have it be sound; the ship has to be built around it.

Aren't there two trypes of dreadnought?  One with the main gun running down its length and another that has guns lining its sides sort of akin to the old tall ships like HMS Victory or USS Constitution (presumably more powerful than cruiser cannons but less so than the long "rail gun" ships).  Kilamenjaro and Everest class I believe.

[Yakko77]

eye basher wrote...

Yakko77 wrote...

You tell'em Han'Gerrel!!!!!

Besides, we're going to need all the firepower we can get against the Reapers.

i don't think arming a few junk heaps with guns is gonna help much.

Maybe but I fugure than fleet survived on its own for 300 years somehow so....

[incinerator950]

Yakko77 wrote...

eye basher wrote...

Yakko77 wrote...

You tell'em Han'Gerrel!!!!!

Besides, we're going to need all the firepower we can get against the Reapers.

i don't think arming a few junk heaps with guns is gonna help much.

Maybe but I fugure than fleet survived on its own for 300 years somehow so....

No one smart enough would attack the Migrant Fleet.  Fifty Thousand ships, most of them refurbished, a lot of them can be combat ready.