169 réponses à ce sujet

[Dionkey]

Can you release platform-separated statistics? I'd like to see the difference between what PC players thought and what console players though.

[Phaedon]

dissonance-zaon wrote...
I also noted that I visit those same websites on an almost daily basis, along with prefacing my whole post with "I personally", and then even edited in how I scored based upon the conditioning those websites and the gaming community in general has had upon me.

The only prism I suggest is my own, which is probably why you don't "get it", since you don't share the same perspective.

I only offered my perspective so that you understand that the mathematical mean is not exactly relative to an opinion.

I by no means suggest that you don't follow professional reviews.
I certainly do believe that you do consider 70% as average for professional reviews.
70% is considered average for professional reviews. Gaming ones.
70% is actually a pretty good score for professional movie reviews. It's way above average.

I am not sure what your perspective is, exactly. Do you recognize the professional averages as inflated? If so, why do you suggest that we carry on that inflation, here of all places? We are not even comparing products.

[Klijpope]

kingjezza wrote...

People can moan about haters all they want but it's clear there are a fair share of people who are giving it high scores it doesn't actually deserve, unless of course people actually think that demo was perfect.

Ignore the 1's and 10's, both are utterly pointless and unhelpful in the long run.

Yes but you cannot quantify this apart from by making stuff up. Each opinion that the survey canvasses is subjective, but the poll is an objective sampling of those subjective opinions. Who are you to decide whether someone's 10 is their honest opinion or a so-called "fan-boy" (really loathe that term nowadays)?

[Phaedon]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...
Who cares about so-called "professional" sites? the fact is, people DON'T view "5" as average, and I'm hoping you can prove me wrong.

The thing is, that's exactly what I just told you with my post. I am not sure why you are replying demanding what you have just quoted.

Metascores are the averages of professional reviews, alright? Those are inflated.
User scores are the averages of non-professional reviews. You suggest that these are inflated. If you actually view the inflated averages link of Metacritic which I am sure I have linked a few posts, above, you'll see by yourself, that the great difference between inflated review scores and user scores is predicted by the inflated averages table Metacritic has.

As such, user scores are not inflated.

And for the second part, I have absolutely no idea how that is relevant. You're saying that a 95%-to-pass makes people see 50% as average? What?

Look, I'm not particularly sure what you don't understand. I think I put it rather simply with my example.

Requiring a 19/20 score is insane by European standards, and yet is a common requirement for students with an Apolyteirion certificate. That is because it's not actually insane by that particular country's standards. Why?

Because as the system is comparative and antagonistic, the grades have been inflated to be that high.

In fact, if you do a bit of research by yourself, you'll see that students from different countries can get (seemingly) wildly different requirements for admission to the university. That's because of inflation of the grades in those particular countries. Certificate grades work much like currencies, you see.

In the end, this inflation are predicted, the standards for each country/certificate differentiated, and everyone has an equal chance, despite the inflation. See?

Unfortunately I have to go

Actually, so have I. For the day.

[Phaedon]

Klijpope wrote...

kingjezza wrote...

People can moan about haters all they want but it's clear there are a fair share of people who are giving it high scores it doesn't actually deserve, unless of course people actually think that demo was perfect.

Ignore the 1's and 10's, both are utterly pointless and unhelpful in the long run.

Yes but you cannot quantify this apart from by making stuff up. Each opinion that the survey canvasses is subjective, but the poll is an objective sampling of those subjective opinions. Who are you to decide whether someone's 10 is their honest opinion or a so-called "fan-boy" (really loathe that term nowadays)?

This is why it's a good thing that we have a datapool of almost 1500 people. There's less of a chance that all of the fanboys and haters swarm it. And even if they do, we got a nice average to calculate their population.

[dissonance-zaon]

Phaedon wrote...

I by no means suggest that you don't follow professional reviews.
I certainly do believe that you do consider 70% as average for professional reviews.
70% is considered average for professional reviews. Gaming ones.
70% is actually a pretty good score for professional movie reviews. It's way above average.

I am not sure what your perspective is, exactly. Do you recognize the professional averages as inflated? If so, why do you suggest that we carry on that inflation, here of all places? We are not even comparing products.

Ah. I see what's happening here, you're kind of missing my point. I'm not suggesting we carry on the inflation, I'm saying you can't blanket your own "50% is the average" on this poll when, despite your wishes, other sites has had its influence-- maybe not on your poll specifically, but on people in general. And I put myself up as an example of exactly that.

It's as EternalAmbiguity said, "70 is the new fifty".

So unless you test in a controlled environment, your poll has already been tainted with at least 1 vote.

[Rhaigun]

Surprising that there wasn't a vote on the Kinect squad commands. I gave them a try, and they work like a charm. However, I would not play the entire game like that.

[Phaedon]

dissonance-zaon wrote...
Ah. I see what's happening here, you're kind of missing my point. I'm not suggesting we carry on the inflation, I'm saying you can't blanket your own "50% is the average" on this poll when, despite your wishes, other sites has had its influence-- maybe not on your poll specifically, but on people in general. And I put myself up as an example of exactly that.

It's as EternalAmbiguity said, "70 is the new fifty".

But I have specifically pointed out that  that assertion is wrong. The very users of the sites you refer to, don't have 'inflated' opinions. Unless you actually believe that the grand majority of people considered GTA IV as 'okay', or 'average'. If so, feel free to state that people thought that the demo was average, just like they thought for GTA IV.

So unless you test in a controlled environment, your poll has already been tainted with at least 1 vote.

1 vote out of 1500?  Well within my window of possibility of statistical failure.

[Rip504]

Wow LoL
Sentinels are a beast. And now in MP Sentinel & Engineer are my 2 fav classes.
They are really good powerful classes. More people should check them out.

[Klijpope]

What I tend to do with pro reviews is subtract 5 and then treat it as if it was out of 5, with a score of even 1 showing some merit.

And not all pro reviews are as inflated as most. Edge or GameCentral in the UK are quite rigorous, with a 5 meaning average or mediocre, and 6 above average. As a comparison GC gave ME1 a 7 and ME2 a 9, but then they hate giving scores as they do not feel them to be useful, but they are forced to by the expectations of the readers.

[darthnick427]

Loved everything and can't wait for the full game and yes I got early access to everything like a boss

[DaJe]

Great thread!
I'm kinda missing the "story, dialog" question, though which I consider quite important.

These numbers confirm my feeling so far. Ok visuals, good gameplay but with annoying button for everything, very good sound and music.

[dissonance-zaon]

Phaedon wrote...

dissonance-zaon wrote...
Ah. I see what's happening here, you're kind of missing my point. I'm not suggesting we carry on the inflation, I'm saying you can't blanket your own "50% is the average" on this poll when, despite your wishes, other sites has had its influence-- maybe not on your poll specifically, but on people in general. And I put myself up as an example of exactly that.

It's as EternalAmbiguity said, "70 is the new fifty".

But I have specifically pointed out that  that assertion is wrong. The very users of the sites you refer to, don't have 'inflated' opinions. Unless you actually believe that the grand majority of people considered GTA IV as 'okay', or 'average'. If so, feel free to state that people thought that the demo was average, just like they thought for GTA IV.

So unless you test in a controlled environment, your poll has already been tainted with at least 1 vote.

1 vote out of 1500?  Well within my window of possibility of statistical failure.

"At least"

The only statistical failure is your neutrality on the matter.

I'd sit here and explain how your GTAIV example is inherently flawed but I'll sum it up as this: I'd score that game a 7.5 myself-- because it was "okay". Not the best GTA I've played and thought it was highly overrated. So the correlation between 98% (pro reviews) and 79% (user reviews) really doesnt apply to people like me, according to your perspective. So our opinion doesn't matter...

...Yeah. I think I'm done here.

[Phaedon]

dissonance-zaon wrote...
"At least"

A datapool of 1500 people is not at all much, if at all, smaller than the data pool of the user scores of Metacritic. If "Metacritics" who are supposedly influenced by this trend every day manage to produce uninflated results, then so can we, to an even greater extent.
'
Yes, that's your own logic used against you, sorry.

The only statistical failure is your neutrality on the matter.

That's not a proper one-liner.

I'd sit here and explain how your GTAIV example is inherently flawed but I'll sum it up as this: I'd score that game a 7.5 myself-- because it was "okay". Not the best GTA I've played and thought it was highly overrated. So the correlation between 98% (pro reviews) and 79% (user reviews) really doesnt apply to people like me, according to your perspective. So our opinion doesn't matter...

...Yeah. I think I'm done here.

Correction: You thought that it was okay, that's not necessarily what everyone else thought. By your logic, every single AAA title lately is "okay" or "somewhat above okay".

Modifié par Phaedon, 18 février 2012 - 10:15 .

[dissonance-zaon]

Phaedon wrote...

dissonance-zaon wrote...
"At least"

A
datapool of 1500 people is not at all much, if at all, smaller than the
data pool of the user scores of Metacritic. If "Metacritics" who are
supposedly influenced by this trend every day manage to produce
uninflated results, then so can we, to an even greater extent.
'
Yes, that's your own logic used against you, sorry.

The only statistical failure is your neutrality on the matter.

That's not a proper one-liner.

I'd sit here and explain how your GTAIV example is inherently flawed but I'll sum it up as this: I'd score that game a 7.5 myself-- because it was "okay".
Not the best GTA I've played and thought it was highly overrated. So
the correlation between 98% (pro reviews) and 79% (user reviews) really
doesnt apply to people like me, according to your perspective. So our
opinion doesn't matter...

...Yeah. I think I'm done here.

Correction:
You thought that it was okay, that's not necessarily what everyone else
thought. By your logic, every single AAA title lately is "okay" or
"somewhat above okay".

Funny, my own logic thrown against me, two can play that: You think 50% is average, but that's not necessarily what everyone else thinks. That's the end of my childish retorts, you may continue though.

You're trying to apply math to an opinion and it just doesnt work that way. You clearly disregard my own opinion (we have "dimissed" these claims?) so thus your neutrality on the matter has in fact, failed; It shows a conflict of interest for someone who is doing the polling.

I respectfully disagree with you Phaedon, and bid you a good day.

Modifié par dissonance-zaon, 18 février 2012 - 10:35 .

[Klijpope]

dissonance-zaon wrote...

I'd sit here and explain how your GTAIV example is inherently flawed but I'll sum it up as this: I'd score that game a 7.5 myself-- because it was "okay". Not the best GTA I've played and thought it was highly overrated. So the correlation between 98% (pro reviews) and 79% (user reviews) really doesnt apply to people like me, according to your perspective. So our opinion doesn't matter...

...Yeah. I think I'm done here.

Now you're not really making any sense here. Phaedon's poll is useful because there aren't lots of biases built into it - you seem to think it needs to be biased in some guesswork mumbo-jumbo kind of way in order to be useful?

Sorry, that's just silly - and a total waste of time.

dissonance-zaon wrote...

You're trying to apply math to an opinion and it just doesnt work that way. You clearly disregard my own opinion (we have "dimissed" these claims?) so thus your neutrality on the matter has in fact, failed; It shows a conflict of interest for someone who is doing the polling.

Yes it does - it's called polling, and maths are applied to opinions all the time. The poll is neutral - that can be seen from the questions, as can the analysis, as Googledocs does it. You just clearly don't understand how polling is done. Even if Phaedon was biased, his poll isn't, and you're opinion on this is irrelevant, as as a survey it speaks for itself.

Modifié par Klijpope, 18 février 2012 - 10:42 .

[Phaedon]

dissonance-zaon wrote...
Funny, my own logic thrown against me, two can play that: You think 50% is average, but that's not necessarily what everyone else thinks. That's the end of my childish retorts, you may continue though.

Considering how I have been pointing out that the Metacritic user scores are not inflated, yes, I am saying that necessarily 50% is viewed as average.

You're trying to apply math to an opinion and it just doesnt work that way.

Sure it does. It's called Demographics. It's a branch of Statistics.

You clearly disregard my own opinion (we have "dimissed" these claims?) so thus your neutrality on the matter has in fact, failed; It shows a conflict of interest for someone who is doing the polling.

Your opinion is either that 50 is not the median value of 0-100, which is incorrect, or that user scores are inflated, which has also been proven to be incorrect. As such, subjective opinions have nothing to do with objective facts.

 It shows a conflict of interest for someone who is doing the polling 

Incorrect. Google Docs did the polling, not I.

I did not set any median values, and I certainly didn't produce the graphs.

I respectfully disagree with you Phaedon, and bid you a good day.

Have a nice day too.

[Phaedon]

Dionkey wrote...

Can you release platform-separated statistics? I'd like to see the difference between what PC players thought and what console players though.

No, I am afraid not. I think that there's a specific type of question I could have set to see this, but it's too late now. You may be able to do it manually, however.

https://docs.google....WldKblFZVV9nZnc 

[Phaedon]

DaJe wrote...

Great thread!
I'm kinda missing the "story, dialog" question, though which I consider quite important.

These numbers confirm my feeling so far. Ok visuals, good gameplay but with annoying button for everything, very good sound and music.

That was a consious choice. The story in the demo was butchered and was therefore out of context more often than not. I didn't think that it'd be productive or interesting to rate the demo based on that form of the story.

[TK EL_]

The thing is while I agree that critic scores are inflated, I don't think its fair to say its true across the board of all games as the critic scores and user scores tend to have very little variance between each other for certain games.

In general, I am skeptical toward user scores for certain reasons (not that I blow to the wind of critic scores either). For instance, Portal 2. While the quality of the game was excellent, the user scores took a big hit as a lot of people did not think its content quantity was worth $60. While that point may be valid, it has construed the what people look for in a review which is quality regardless of inherent replay value and such.

Another example is someone stated in this thread that he hasn't played the demo yet but would have scored it a 3. It doesn't get anymore silly than that. How about not rating the game till you can actually play it? The sad thing is this sort of thing happens a lot. People get a game that was badly copied onto the disk and then review said game at a 1 or 2. This is the lack of decency I was talking about.

[Phaedon]

TK EL wrote...

The thing is while I agree that critic scores are inflated, I don't think its fair to say its true across the board of all games as the critic scores and user scores tend to have very little variance between each other for certain games.

If you multiply them by 10, user scores tend to have a difference between 10-20% of the critic score, as Metacritic already predicts.

In general, I am skeptical toward user scores for certain reasons (not that I blow to the wind of critic scores either). For instance, Portal 2. While the quality of the game was excellent, the user scores took a big hit as a lot of people did not think its content quantity was worth $60. While that point may be valid, it has construed the what people look for in a review which is quality regardless of inherent replay value and such.

But review bombing is to be expected for all games. But after some time, the score will end up in the value it'd be in the first place. There are more legitimate amateur critics than there are trolls or haters.

Another example is someone stated in this thread that he hasn't played the demo yet but would have scored it a 3. It doesn't get anymore silly than that. How about not rating the game till you can actually play it? The sad thing is this sort of thing happens a lot. People get a game that was badly copied onto the disk and then review said game at a 1 or 2. This is the lack of decency I was talking about.

I expected such cases, and this is why I waited until the data pool was big enough so that we'd be safe by such careless voting. No, really. Voting the contents of a product you haven't been able to access? Why? Protest? In an unofficial poll? I just don't get it.

[dissonance-zaon]

Klijpope wrote...

Now you're not really making any sense here. Phaedon's poll is useful because there aren't lots of biases built into it - you seem to think it needs to be biased in some guesswork mumbo-jumbo kind of way in order to be useful?

Sorry, that's just silly - and a total waste of time.

To clarify: You can't correlate 98% pro reviews to mean the same thing as the 79% user reviews, just inflated. Could it possilby be that people honestly thought the game deserved a 7.9/10 and not a 9.8/10?

I thought the game deserved a 7.5 because while it's not a bad game, far be it, it deserves a higher score than a 5 for its high production value (AAA title).

Klijpope wrote...

Yes it does - it's called polling, and maths are applied to opinions all the time. The poll is neutral - that can be seen from the questions, as can the analysis, as Googledocs does it. You just clearly don't understand how polling is done. Even if Phaedon was biased, his poll isn't, and you're opinion on this is irrelevant, as as a survey it speaks for itself.

The idea is that some people, like myself, see "70% is the new 50%". Social influence had a bearing on the way people, like myself, voted in the poll, and yes, in other polls too. Phaedon sees 50% as average and I explained that I dont... it's a difference of opinion which I've already said I respectfully disagree, based on the trends of the gaming community as a whole (from my perspective).

This whole argument is a waste of time and irrelevant, but when someone comes around and dismisses an opinion with a condescending attitude, things tend to go that route.

[dissonance-zaon]

TK EL wrote...

The thing is while I agree that critic scores are inflated, I don't think its fair to say its true across the board of all games as the critic scores and user scores tend to have very little variance between each other for certain games.

In general, I am skeptical toward user scores for certain reasons (not that I blow to the wind of critic scores either). For instance, Portal 2. While the quality of the game was excellent, the user scores took a big hit as a lot of people did not think its content quantity was worth $60. While that point may be valid, it has construed the what people look for in a review which is quality regardless of inherent replay value and such.

Another example is someone stated in this thread that he hasn't played the demo yet but would have scored it a 3. It doesn't get anymore silly than that. How about not rating the game till you can actually play it? The sad thing is this sort of thing happens a lot. People get a game that was badly copied onto the disk and then review said game at a 1 or 2. This is the lack of decency I was talking about.

This precisely. There's too many variables in an uncontrolled environment.

[Phaedon]

dissonance-zaon wrote...
This precisely. There's too many variables in an uncontrolled environment.

Uncontrolled environment? What constitutes as controlled in statistics.

We are not reinventing the wheel here, demography is among the most common type of statistics.

EDIT: The fact that you are willing to question the very purpose of this function of Google Docs, or demographics in general, says a lot about the point the argument has taken, I think. Just because you don't like the opinion of others, it doesn't mean that you have to discard it as fraudulent.

Modifié par Phaedon, 18 février 2012 - 11:49 .

[dissonance-zaon]

Phaedon wrote...

dissonance-zaon wrote...
This precisely. There's too many variables in an uncontrolled environment.

Uncontrolled environment? What constitutes as controlled in statistics.

We are not reinventing the wheel here, demography is among the most common type of statistics.

EDIT: The fact that you are willing to question the very purpose of this function of Google Docs, or demographics in general, says a lot about the point the argument has taken, I think. Just because you don't like the opinion of others, it doesn't mean that you have to discard it as fraudulent.

Okay now you're going too far. I never said I don't like the opinion of others and never said it was fraudulent. Seriously, all I ever said was my perspective, that I've been influenced by the gaming community and how it affected my vote and possibly others-- so that the blanket statement of "50% is average" is not necessarily true when you're polling opinions.

If you want my take on this poll, it seems that the demo recieved mostly positive feedback (which is exactly what I felt except gameplay [the controls mostly]) and it was a good contribution to the forums.

Edit: I'm not trying to be hostile towards you, Phaedon, and I'll admit that saying you're bias was a bit unfounded. I kinda gathered that you were pushing your opinion too much in the OP is all... I'm used to polling just showing the numbers lol Sorry.

Edit 2: Err bit of a mistake there as well, I meant in the thread in general, not the OP. Sorry again.

Modifié par dissonance-zaon, 19 février 2012 - 12:31 .