110 réponses à ce sujet

[Ghandorian]

Bluesmith wrote...

I hate to play devil's advocate so transparently, but...

I think some - maybe most - of the criticism in this thread is a little unfair. Just a cursory reading of it has led me to believe that many of those bemoaning the complainers haven't actually looked at the complaint threads they deride. Truth be told, many, many so-called "whiner" posts are lengthy analyses and bulleted lists, often complete with insightful information and suggestions by people who have spent a great deal of time with the game. Some of us - myself included - have combed through the ability scripts, made changes, and playtested them, to better judge DAO's current balance scheme. Indeed, it's only been about two weeks and balance mods designed around community opinion and feedback are already seeing release.

It's a little sad to see people up in arms over the fact that many of us realize that improvement is always an option. If anything, I think of myself as an optimist. Bioware is a big boy, it can defend itself.

Ghandorian wrote...

One of the funniest things about most of the negativity is how the game is too hard. You guys should take that as a compliment. Thanks for challenging us! All the mods so far are all about making characters stronger or carry more so it is easier to play. People are trying to dumb things down and speed up the play-through. You obviously exceeded a lot of peoples expectations and rocked a few boats as well.

This is demonstrably false. Several mods exist to make the game harder; indeed, I daresay the majority (if not entirety) of balance-based and gameplay effect mods are about increasing difficulty via the implementation of potion cooldowns, nerfs to spells, adjustment upwards of enemy resists, and more. You're likely referring to armor and weapon additions, which naturally lend themselves to overpoweredness.

To be honest I haven't went looking for any mods as I haven't found any glaring shortcomings. But if indeed people are making mods to enhance the challenge then they certainly do not deserve to be grouped in with the lot who are creating glorified cheat codes.

My apologies.

[Smkswazi]

haven't red all the posts. just want to add that for me negative is same as positive, as far as games goes (and some other things). when someone talks negative about a game every body goes in defensive mode and in desperation are asking that let the negativity be at least constructive. where on the other side no one demands legit reasons why someone likes a game. (its not alway the case, mind) All i am saying is that it all comes down to opinions same as someone says they like the game someone can say they don't like it. It either is or is not their cup of tea.



On the other hand if you want to be constructive and help develop a game you need to be constructive in negate as in positive aspects of the game!

p.s. sorry for my possible english errors, not my native speech

[DragonRageGT]

As to the OP, I fail to see how trolls "waste everyone's time" ... Just don't post on their threads and feed them or even better, don't even read them. It is amazing how crappy trolling topics gets huge response while some light funny ones or serious requests/questions usually gets ignored.

I feel ppl in these forums are really out here for the flame wars, not to be part of a community. No one owns the forum except the game makers, I guess, and yet people waste huge amount of text wall to try imposing their personal opinions on others. Maker bless the differences!

Why the heck ppl assume that anyone that may want something changed in DA has came from MMO, in particular WOW? I'm a huge Blizzard's fan and I have never played WoW. It is against my religion to pay monthly for a game that I've already paid for the box.  I loved D1, D2, SC (GT's ready for war in SC2), WC2/3 and yet, I don't want to see any Blizzard feature in Bioware games.

Same for Gothic/Risen. I want Piranha to keep dooing their great job and not BW to clone it.

I'm also a huge fan of Bioware's since BG and own every title they released up to NWN2 (which would be much better if it were BW's). I spent 5 years playing NWN online in amazing PW's. Am I wrong to wish DA would renew that experience with its advanced graphics and gameplay, compared to NWN? It may never happens but still, am I wrong to wish for it?

People that simply bash something in their posts because they don't like it shouldn't even get a reply and yet their topics get 40 pages long... If they post constructive or just express their opinion knowing that it is just that, personal opinions, it would be much more pleasant for people to interact in their threads, IMHO.

As a musician who loves Rock, Metal, classic, Blues, Brazilian MPB of course, world music and music in general as long as it sounds good to my ears and soul, I feel really sorry for those who can only appreciate one style and hate the others. It applies to games too. Or most anything actually.

Fanaticism, radical fundamentalism, close minded views and extremist radicalism can often pass unpercepted by those professing it and that's just sad as no one owns the truth, myself least of all. As a matter of fact, there is just one absolute truth that is undeniable but I won't go there... wormfood...

Pard my french, this is NOT my mother tongue!

Modifié par RageGT, 24 novembre 2009 - 08:47 .

[SheffSteel]

It's perfectly possible to have reasonable discussions that are critical of the game. I wrote quite a long spiel about potions & mana not being fun and got some decent, thoughtful replies to it. Perhaps, though, that was because it was a blog rather than a forum post?

[Sloth Of Doom]

SheffSteel wrote...

It's perfectly possible to have reasonable discussions that are critical of the game. I wrote quite a long spiel about potions & mana not being fun and got some decent, thoughtful replies to it. Perhaps, though, that was because it was a blog rather than a forum post?

Probably.  If you cut n pasted it hre I am wiling to bet that in the first page of responses at least one person would rae out instead of responding with valid points.

If you are up for a an internet social experiment, why not post it (or part of it) here and see what happens?

[addiction21]

Sloth Of Doom wrote...

SheffSteel wrote...

It's perfectly possible to have reasonable discussions that are critical of the game. I wrote quite a long spiel about potions & mana not being fun and got some decent, thoughtful replies to it. Perhaps, though, that was because it was a blog rather than a forum post?

Probably.  If you cut n pasted it hre I am wiling to bet that in the first page of responses at least one person would rae out instead of responding with valid points.

If you are up for a an internet social experiment, why not post it (or part of it) here and see what happens?

I dont read blogs, but be assured somewhere on that first page (if it was to be posted on the forum) would be something about waffles

[SheffSteel]

The weird thing is, I re-read that blog and now the comments aren't showing. It's the end of civilised debate as we know it! Argh! Or not.

[WillieStyle]

In a sense, complaint threads are a compliment to Bioware. All successful games have them. A person posting a complaint on your forums is essentially saying:

"I enjoyed your game enough to be emotionally invested in it but would like the following things changed..."



To give an example of what I mean, I bought Oblivion a few years back. Played it and HATED it. The game mechanics were terrible; combat was boring; and the story was threadbare. I did not spend a single second complaining about the game on the Bethesda forums. I just threw the DVD away and went on with my life.



Now some complainers are just doing it for attention. But the way to deal with that problem is to ignore posts you don't find worthwhile. An equally large problem is the fanboi effect: folks who will jump into a complaint thread to disagree just to reflexively "defend" Bioware. I see a lot of posts that go like this:

"I don't really know much about game mechanics, and I haven't really used [insert spell or talent], but I don't think Bioware should change [insert spell or talent]." I wander what motivates people to make posts like this.

[Akka le Vil]

Darht Jayder wrote...

If people hate this game so much and go out of their way to post a billion comments about their dislikes.......why not just trade it in, get another game, and stop wasting everyone's time and their own energy.  If it was a truly crap game...

It's not because someone is actually blessed with critical thinking, and can point the flaws of a game, that he necessarily hate it.
In fact, constructive criticism is much better for everyone than dumb fanboyism. At least it helps improve the game and provide designers with useful feedback.

Try to think about it.

[Sloth Of Doom]

Akka le Vil wrote...

Darht Jayder wrote...

If people hate this game so much and go out of their way to post a billion comments about their dislikes.......why not just trade it in, get another game, and stop wasting everyone's time and their own energy.  If it was a truly crap game...

It's not because someone is actually blessed with critical thinking, and can point the flaws of a game, that he necessarily hate it.
In fact, constructive criticism is much better for everyone than dumb fanboyism. At least it helps improve the game and provide designers with useful feedback.

Try to think about it.

Like a lot of peope on this forum you seem to have failed to read the thread you are commenting in and thereby missed the entire point.  Nobody is complaining about constructive criticism, they are discussing the hundreds of rabid bashers who come on here full of negativity and spew thier acidic hate-bile all over the place without any constructive ideas at all.

For some reason people are now equating "this game is teh suk and bioware needz to die!!1!" with "constructive criticisim".

[Akka le Vil]

Sloth Of Doom wrote...

Like a lot of peope on this forum you seem to have failed to read the thread you are commenting in and thereby missed the entire point.  Nobody is complaining about constructive criticism, they are discussing the hundreds of rabid bashers who come on here full of negativity and spew thier acidic hate-bile all over the place without any constructive ideas at all.

For some reason people are now equating "this game is teh suk and bioware needz to die!!1!" with "constructive criticisim".

Well, from what I have seen, everyone is celebrating constructive criticism, but half of the time when someone point a perceived flaw, he's branded as being a "whiner" or a "hater". Guess it's better than "all the time", but it's still not like it wasn't happening.

[Sloth Of Doom]

You are right, Akka, the sword does indeed cut both ways and replying with hate to a constructive post is in no way helpful at all.



If someone poses a theory about the way stamina works and cites examples about why they think it needs improvement how they think it could be bettered, responding with 'gtfo' is not a good thing.



If someone comes on and starts crying about how there is no multiplayer...well...that is neither realistic nor constructive, and there is no way to positively respond.

[sleepy__head]

Darht Jayder wrote...

If people hate this game so much and go out of their way to post a billion comments about their dislikes.......why not just trade it in, get another game, and stop wasting everyone's time and their own energy.  If it was a truly crap game...I could understand it, but it is a great game and play it in the spirit for which it is intended......story driven RPG with an incredibly immersive world.

Kudos to the guys who make fabulous games like this and take so much crap from whiners!

p.s....If you don't like DLC don't buy it and shut up.

Did it ever occur to you for one second that someone who voices criticisms might love the game and want to speak up so it may IMPROVE?

Tell me, which group of people do you think is better for the game and its community if you must pick one?  A group of fanboys who cheer Bioware on no matter what, or a group of people who look at everything critically and voice the stuff they find should improve?

Think about that one.

[sleepy__head]

[quote]

For some reason people are now equating "this game is teh suk and bioware needz to die!!1!" with "constructive criticisim".[/quote]

[/quote]

If you have to support your side with such hyperbole goggle this word if you don't understand it), you need to stop participating in an adult's discussion.  No one in this thread, or any threads that I have seen so far has said bioware needs to die.  The fact that you have to resort to such exaggeration, completely with deliberately "leet speak", really tells people that you have no case.

If you cannot tolerate criticism of a product, you really shouldn't come to a public forum specifically made for it.

Think about that one too, kid.

Modifié par sleepy__head, 24 novembre 2009 - 10:10 .

[Sloth Of Doom]

sleepy__head wrote...

Darht Jayder wrote...

If people hate this game so much and go out of their way to post a billion comments about their dislikes.......why not just trade it in, get another game, and stop wasting everyone's time and their own energy.  If it was a truly crap game...I could understand it, but it is a great game and play it in the spirit for which it is intended......story driven RPG with an incredibly immersive world.

Kudos to the guys who make fabulous games like this and take so much crap from whiners!

p.s....If you don't like DLC don't buy it and shut up.

Did it ever occur to you for one second that someone who voices criticisms might love the game and want to speak up so it may IMPROVE?

Tell me, which group of people do you think is better for the game and its community if you must pick one?  A group of fanboys who cheer Bioware on no matter what, or a group of people who look at everything critically and voice the stuff they find should improve?

Think about that one.

Holy crap, did you READ this thread before posting?  Seriously dude...you entirely missed the whole point.  Go back, read it all again.  Please.

[sleepy__head]

Did you read mine before posting? Seriously dude, go back and read it all again. Please.

[addiction21]

[quote]sleepy__head wrote...

[quote]

For some reason people are now equating "this game is teh suk and bioware needz to die!!1!" with "constructive criticisim".[/quote]

[/quote]

If you have to support your side with such hyperbole goggle this word if you don't understand it), you need to stop participating in an adult's discussion.  No one in this thread, or any threads that I have seen so far has said bioware needs to die.  The fact that you have to resort to such exaggeration, completely with deliberately "leet speak", really tells people that you have no case.

If you cannot tolerate criticism of a product, you really shouldn't come to a public forum specifically made for it.

Think about that one too, kid.[/quote]

You must not read a lot of threads then because I can think of at least a dozen times thats been someones entire rant.
And as I said before earlier well thought out and written critisim's are welcomed by many here (no matter what there will always be some **** ****** troll on either side of a arguement just trying to start a flamefest no matter how civil the debate is) BUT those are in the minority.
Most of the "criticisms" are just complaints about how they do not like this or don't like that. That the game needs to be completely reworked because it does not fit their playstyle or how some mechanic is not up to their lofty standards.  IE opinions that they are trying disguise as facts and legitiment critisims, which they are not.  Saying xxxxxxx previous title had it so this should is not an arguement. Saying that other games do it this way and it is the way dao should be doing it is not criticism.
And if you can not handle someone having a differing opinion then you then stay out of the forums because that is exactly what it is here for. It is not hear solely for your side of the arguement. A forum is for debate on a given subject and if you role in and act like a disrespectfull opnionianted jerk whose word is law then you WILL be called out for it and made to look a fool.
If you come here to air your critisims and do it in a well thought out way providing examples and explanations of why you think something needs to be changed, then you will be welcomed and treated fairly by the majority.

tldr?
If you act like a spoiled brat who did not get your way you will be treated like one.
If you act like a decent human being and explain your reasons for why you feel something should be changed or tweaked, then you will be heard out.

[B33ker]

There is an old saying something like, "You never hear a peep when something is good, but let something go wrong or not be as expected and you'll never shut them up". 

There is a thread on a certain forum on a PC Tech site about DA:O, and one person in that thread is constantly posting about how he hates the game, and yet another page later, he's still playing it, and still saying he hates it.  To me, it either proves the person is mentally unbalanced (most of his arguments make no sense at all), or the game is so good that even though he hates it, he has to keep playing it. 

Some people complain just because they can.  What would forums be without trolls lurking around every corner?

Is the game perfect?  Not quite, but it's so damn close that to expect anything more isn't very reasonable in my mind.  I'm on my 3rd playthrough now (having finally just completed all PC Achievements), and I'm still finding new things or getting a laugh out of the NPC banter in the party.

This game has made getting laid off a little more bearable for me, as otherwise I'd be mentally at the end of my rope.

I really hope they can put out a lot more like it. 

[DragonRageGT]

It is funny to see the same two people arguing to the other same two people in amost every thread in this Forum.... NOT!

[Sakiradesu]

Akka le Vil wrote...

Sloth Of Doom wrote...

Like a lot of peope on this forum you seem to have failed to read the thread you are commenting in and thereby missed the entire point.  Nobody is complaining about constructive criticism, they are discussing the hundreds of rabid bashers who come on here full of negativity and spew thier acidic hate-bile all over the place without any constructive ideas at all.

For some reason people are now equating "this game is teh suk and bioware needz to die!!1!" with "constructive criticisim".

Well, from what I have seen, everyone is celebrating constructive criticism, but half of the time when someone point a perceived flaw, he's branded as being a "whiner" or a "hater". Guess it's better than "all the time", but it's still not like it wasn't happening.

There's an art to forum posts, just like polling. In polling, how you ask the question or who you have asking the question directly affect the answer.

With forum threads, if all you list are the problems with DA:O, people will think you dislike the game and are an angry customer. You might be typing matter-of-factly speaking, but another person might perceive you differently.

The negative threads have posts that sound like the poster is attacking the game. Many of the people on these boards like the game, which leads them to want to defend the game against said poster. Conflict!

The positive threads have more posts stating that people love the game, but there are minor things that were not as well liked. People responding to the post do not feel threatened and do not have the urge to defend the game (with the exception of the fanatical). They can provide their constructive input about the issue in question, without deviating to... "ur dumb cuz this game rulez."

[jo_cool69]

You all suck, this game SUXOR, my life sucky sucky... oh sorry wrong topic!



(jk - I LOVE this game!!!)



Later

[JaegerBane]

71Zarathustra71 wrote...

To be fair, virtually every new game forum is exactly the same. Fanboys invest an enormous amount of expectation into a game, be it because of the company making it, or because it is a sequel and when it fails to deliver in the exact way that they expect it sends them over the edge into a hissy fit.

There are still people to this day sat on GTA 4 boards whining about how San Andreas was better. It was released 18 months ago for God's sake.

Only a true fanboy will be so hurt by a game's 'betrayal' that he will never accept it. In a bizarre twist of logic, they will attack defenders of the game as fanboys for not hating the game with a passion because of some slight variation on a previous game.

To be honest some of the hyper-negative posts almost sound like they're part of a wider agenda. Some of the bile regarding DLCs for instance seems to go far beyond what would be considered reasonable - I don't begrudge anyone for stating their not good value and hence they don't wish to buy them, but you have a lot of lunatics on here who take that 20 steps further and start accusing anyone who does buy them as 'sheep' and 'cattle' and various other farm animals.

And then you have the real fruitcakes who brand DLCs as the death of all gaming.