268 réponses à ce sujet

[BlueMagitek]

fatmancory wrote...

and all humans are strands of dna.
Think about, the most basic life forms are just viruses, which are
pretty much like simple programs, as the evolve, their "program" gets
more and more complex.

if the geth were simple programs, mabey you'de have a point, but their are far from simple.

The Geth are
simple programs.  A single geth might be able to concentrate on a
single task, like raising and lowering an arm, or something along those
lines.  They only managed to go from VI to rudimentary AI because they mass together.

MoltenRock wrote...

Note that the geth as they right now are sentient beings, capable of making rational decisions and possibly capeable of emotions as indicated by the way legion sometimes acts. That they weren't sentient before is irrelevant now. If the evolution theory by Charles Darwin is correct we weren't either a long time ago.

You would decide the right to exist based solely on what one is made of? I.E. Organic material with instincts is good, synthethic with programming code bad? That is far too close to the racism we have here on earth to my liking.

When the Geth became aware, this was not a function of their programming.  They were not acting as they were intended.  That means that there was something wrong with the code.  Couple this with the fact that AI was banned by the Council (who get off on making Quarians miserable) and the Quarians have every right to shut their programs down and try to fix them.

It's funny, Legion himself says that you shouldn't treat the Geth like an organic race; that altering their code is not the same as mindwashing an organic creature, and yet you deny the Quarians the opportunity to do just that (as I said, the Geth code would likely have been reworked, starting over is less likely), but it's ok for Shepard to do it.

[fatmancory]

BlueMagitek wrote...

The Geth are
simple programs.  A single geth might be able to concentrate on a
single task, like raising and lowering an arm, or something along those
lines.  They only managed to go from VI to rudimentary AI because they mass together.

 


The geth can do far more than "raise an arm" by them selfs. they are in fact perfeclty capable of doing combat and other tasks that requrie full body cordination. more geth alows them to share basic data, clearing more room for creative thought, at this point you show such little understanding of the matter that its pointless to continue this any further. I say good day sir.

Modifié par fatmancory, 19 février 2012 - 06:01 .

[BlueMagitek]

No, a single geth is a single program, as Legion says, a geth body is inhabited by many geths, putting their computing power together to have sentience. Legion is ~1000 Geth programs in a body.

[fatmancory]

BlueMagitek wrote...

No, a single geth is a single program, as Legion says, a geth body is inhabited by many geths, putting their computing power together to have sentience. Legion is ~1000 Geth programs in a body.

Witch are like your diffrent parts of brain, they are like your tought processes for your heart to beat or for atimatic breathing. a geth unit uses these and acts as an indevidual when by him self, it is no more a colection than you are.

[DJBare]

BlueMagitek wrote...
When the Geth became aware, this was not a function of their programming.  They were not acting as they were intended.  That means that there was something wrong with the code.

Now you are saying awareness is an error, that means humans are an error, and you know something, I agree, we are mutants, continually mutating over millions of years, we don't see it as mutation because it happens subtley, the geth are just mutating a hell of a lot faster than us.

[BlueMagitek]

fatmancory wrote...

Witch are like your diffrent parts of brain, they are like your tought processes for your heart to beat or for atimatic breathing. a geth unit uses these and acts as an indevidual when by him self, it is no more a colection than you are.

No, you said it yourself, a geth is just a minor program.  One may be the "heart beat", another may be "breathing".  But a single geth is not an AI, it's a VI, and it is not sentient until it masses with other Geth.

DJBare wrote...
Now you are saying awareness is an error, that
means humans are an error, and you know something, I agree, we are
mutants, continually mutating over millions of years, we don't see it as
mutation because it happens subtley, the geth are just mutating a hell
of a lot faster than us.

An error according to their creators.  Who are you to know our creator's intention for us?

[DJBare]

BlueMagitek wrote...
An error according to their creators.  Who are you to know our creator's intention for us?

I was afraid you were going to go there, no offense, it's been very enjoyable discussing this with you upto this point, this is where I respectfully bow out.

Modifié par DJBare, 19 février 2012 - 06:28 .

[BlueMagitek]

DJBare wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...
An error according to their creators.  Who are you to know our creator's intention for us?

I was afraid you were going to go there, no offense, it's been very enjoyable discussing this with you upto this point, this is where I respectfully bow out.

What's wrong?  We don't know if we have a creator or their intention for us, so judging us the way that we judge a program is wrong.  I suppose we could count the Protheans, but we have no idea what their intentions would be, so we can't judge if it was an error or not.  I suppose judging an organic the same way you would a synthetic is, well, wrong.

As Legion mentions, of course, not that anyone cares about what he says.

[heisman45]

Any species that can form unique thoughts should be left alone...PERIOD!!!
1.) Legion is awesome
2.) There more than just logic and calculations case and point the fact Legion uses Sheppars N7 armor and continues to wear it for reasons beyond logic

[fatmancory]

heisman45 wrote...

Any species that can form unique thoughts should be left alone...PERIOD!!!
1.) Legion is awesome
2.) There more than just logic and calculations case and point the fact Legion uses Sheppars N7 armor and continues to wear it for reasons beyond logic

Hate to say it, as it takes away from my argument, but The N7 armor logic is to unknown to do any thing other than a make a speculation, and i'd rather not use speculations to prove a point.

Modifié par fatmancory, 19 février 2012 - 06:38 .

[heisman45]

fatmancory wrote...

heisman45 wrote...

Any species that can form unique thoughts should be left alone...PERIOD!!!
1.) Legion is awesome
2.) There more than just logic and calculations case and point the fact Legion uses Sheppars N7 armor and continues to wear it for reasons beyond logic

Hate to say it, as it takes away from my argument, but The N7 armor logic is to unknown to do any thing other than a make a speculation, and i'd rather not use speculations to prove a point.

No it proves Legion made a decision based on someting other than logic.

[PsychoWARD23]

Legion64 wrote...

Quarians decide to go on a genocide because their slaves were beginning to understand their reasons for their creation? Yeah, the Quarians got what they deserved by getting kicked off their planet. I too will screw over those evil Quarians for such a disgusting act.

Robots bro, robots

[Nashiktal]

BlueMagitek wrote...

DJBare wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...
An error according to their creators.  Who are you to know our creator's intention for us?

I was afraid you were going to go there, no offense, it's been very enjoyable discussing this with you upto this point, this is where I respectfully bow out.

What's wrong?  We don't know if we have a creator or their intention for us, so judging us the way that we judge a program is wrong.  I suppose we could count the Protheans, but we have no idea what their intentions would be, so we can't judge if it was an error or not.  I suppose judging an organic the same way you would a synthetic is, well, wrong.

As Legion mentions, of course, not that anyone cares about what he says.

What's wrong is you are touching on topics essentially banned on these forums because no one can be civil about it. 

[Medhia Nox]

heisman45: Everything alive forms unique thoughts - that's hardly an accurate requirement for me.

@BlueMagitek: You mentioned the possibility we might have a creator - you're clearly trying arouse our passions with your inflammatory rhetoric (sarcasm)

What we do know - is that the Geth DO have a creator... and, when I paint a picture - or write a book - or program a stupid machine to act like a person... it's my property. It doesn't possess some mystical magical spark of life... and doesn't gain some wishy washy inexplicable worth.

I certainly hope no anti - metaphysical person would ascribe false values to the Geth... because that would be irrational. If there are no values... then all values are false, and any ascribed are done so through the providence of "make believe" - which, I may refute (and correctly) - the truth will be sorted out by who amasses the greatest "consensus" of believers in our respective truths...

And mine is... that they're just fancy machines (and Legion's is that the Reapers are just fancier machines - so he's on my team) - I imagine Blue Magitek holds the same conclusion (no assumption on the beliefs that got him there)

[BlueMagitek]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@BlueMagitek: You mentioned the possibility we might have a creator - you're clearly trying arouse our passions with your inflammatory rhetoric (sarcasm)

What we do know - is that the Geth DO have a creator... and, when I paint a picture - or write a book - or program a stupid machine to act like a person... it's my property. It doesn't possess some mystical magical spark of life... and doesn't gain some wishy washy inexplicable worth.

I certainly hope no anti - metaphysical person would ascribe false values to the Geth... because that would be irrational. If there are no values... then all values are false, and any ascribed are done so through the providence of "make believe" - which, I may refute (and correctly) - the truth will be sorted out by who amasses the greatest "consensus" of believers in our respective truths...

And mine is... that they're just fancy machines (and Legion's is that the Reapers are just fancier machines - so he's on my team) - I imagine Blue Magitek holds the same conclusion (no assumption on the beliefs that got him there)

Well, deities aside, in the Mass Effect universe we do know that we had Protheans observing our ancestors, we don't know if they made any alterations or if they were just watching or what.  But I digress, I don't intend to create a religious war.

As it boils down to it, the geth are code.  They were intended for simple VI tasks, not rational thought.  That developed on its own, for whatever reason; and when that happened, the Quarians tried to shut them down.  As was their right.  The geth were never created to be AI, just code.  When a robot is doing your cleaning or managing the heat of your toast, or whatever the Quarians had them doing, it isn't slavery, it's machines performing their jobs.  But with AI, well, you're putting a sentient being to work, it is much closer to slavery than intended. 

When a machine is functioning differently than intended, then you try and find the problem and solve it.  This usually involves turning said program off at some point.  I am absolutely baffled by someone who believes that the Quarians deserved to be driven off their planets and nearly driven to extinction for what is essentially closing a program. 

Now, if we were talking about a scenario where a creator species turned on their creations because the creations, designed to be rational thinkers (we'll just call it True AI), came to a conclusion that the creators didn't intend, that's slightly different.  But that's the thing; it isn't the case here.

I so rarely see such outrage over the genophage (where are the people proclaiming that the Salarians must be destroyed because of their genocide against the Krogan?) or the Turian's 'welcome to society' to the humans (attacking an unknown species for doing something they wouldn't have known about, and then trying to occupy their planet?  lolwut?).  

And now I forgot where I was going with this.  I hope you're all happy. 

[heisman45]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@BlueMagitek: You mentioned the possibility we might have a creator - you're clearly trying arouse our passions with your inflammatory rhetoric (sarcasm)

What we do know - is that the Geth DO have a creator... and, when I paint a picture - or write a book - or program a stupid machine to act like a person... it's my property. It doesn't possess some mystical magical spark of life... and doesn't gain some wishy washy inexplicable worth.

I certainly hope no anti - metaphysical person would ascribe false values to the Geth... because that would be irrational. If there are no values... then all values are false, and any ascribed are done so through the providence of "make believe" - which, I may refute (and correctly) - the truth will be sorted out by who amasses the greatest "consensus" of believers in our respective truths...

And mine is... that they're just fancy machines (and Legion's is that the Reapers are just fancier machines - so he's on my team) - I imagine Blue Magitek holds the same conclusion (no assumption on the beliefs that got him there)

Well, deities aside, in the Mass Effect universe we do know that we had Protheans observing our ancestors, we don't know if they made any alterations or if they were just watching or what.  But I digress, I don't intend to create a religious war.

As it boils down to it, the geth are code.  They were intended for simple VI tasks, not rational thought.  That developed on its own, for whatever reason; and when that happened, the Quarians tried to shut them down.  As was their right.  The geth were never created to be AI, just code.  When a robot is doing your cleaning or managing the heat of your toast, or whatever the Quarians had them doing, it isn't slavery, it's machines performing their jobs.  But with AI, well, you're putting a sentient being to work, it is much closer to slavery than intended. 

When a machine is functioning differently than intended, then you try and find the problem and solve it.  This usually involves turning said program off at some point.  I am absolutely baffled by someone who believes that the Quarians deserved to be driven off their planets and nearly driven to extinction for what is essentially closing a program. 

Now, if we were talking about a scenario where a creator species turned on their creations because the creations, designed to be rational thinkers (we'll just call it True AI), came to a conclusion that the creators didn't intend, that's slightly different.  But that's the thing; it isn't the case here.

I so rarely see such outrage over the genophage (where are the people proclaiming that the Salarians must be destroyed because of their genocide against the Krogan?) or the Turian's 'welcome to society' to the humans (attacking an unknown species for doing something they wouldn't have known about, and then trying to occupy their planet?  lolwut?).  

And now I forgot where I was going with this.  I hope you're all happy. 

I like the Genophage debate more as well. 

[Imperator Augustus]

Personally, I think that the Quarian/Geth conflict can be resolved peacefully. The Geth do not occupy the former Quarian worlds but instead act as caretakers for them. The Geth simply want to be left alone in order to establish their own destiny. The Quarians were wrong to try and kill the Geth, but the Geth were also wrong to drive the Quarians from their home worlds. I'm sure that the Geth and the Quarians can be persuaded to agree to a peace treaty where the Geth depart the Quarian worlds and the Quarians can return home.

The Genophage debate however is far more difficult to resolve. In all honesty, Mordin was right that the Genophage was terrible but necessary. It was the best in an array of bad choices. It was either that or kill them all. The problem with curing the Genophage is that the Krogan are a fractured people. There is no cultural background to support unification. Even if Wrex can unite the clans, that will last only as long as he remains alive. The second he dies (or is killed) the Krogan would go back to being a warring, tribal society. The Krogan can't ignore their biology. I would like to cure the Genophage, but this is a decision that I will have to mull over.

[AlexXIV]

heisman45 wrote...

fatmancory wrote...

heisman45 wrote...

Any species that can form unique thoughts should be left alone...PERIOD!!!
1.) Legion is awesome
2.) There more than just logic and calculations case and point the fact Legion uses Sheppars N7 armor and continues to wear it for reasons beyond logic

Hate to say it, as it takes away from my argument, but The N7 armor logic is to unknown to do any thing other than a make a speculation, and i'd rather not use speculations to prove a point.

No it proves Legion made a decision based on someting other than logic.

No it hints on that. It's not really an evidence. But it seems even Legion can't answer that.

[Kakaw]

If my computer found out I'd been abusing it for years (say I'd use it like a slave, in case it likes taking my commands), I'm not sure it would just peacefully co-exist with me. How can I trust it, or rather, how can i trust it to trust me? I don't know how it would even expierence trust and respect and how it would value these things. I'm pretty sure I'd blow mu computer to bits pretty fast had it become self-aware, especially had it been powerful enough to pose a possible threat.

I cannot side with the Geth against the quarians based on that alone. The Geth will never have the same long term goal as biological sentient beings (for one, I don't think they value the lives of a single "one" being, Geth are many), nor do they have a good track record of respecting the lives of any race.

Wether or not they should be made extinct? I don't know. Basically no, they shouldn't (tho' if I were to decide, they would not be able to roam completely freely anywhere they want, atleast not for now). But if I had to make a choice, either or, then I'd side with the quarians. It's their home world to take back and I would not view their attack as an 'invasion of the Geth home world'. Had the Geth been a biological race, or "naturally occuring" race, I would probably have defended them in a similar situation. However they are too different, too weird, and as of yet too dangerous; and I would never help them take out a (commonly peaceful) biologically evolved race.

Genophage, hm hm hm. I never could figure this one out. Obviously no one should have interfered with the Krogan at all. They should have continued to stay on their planet. I don't really recall (if I ever knew) that many details, but obviously, for instance, the Krogan did not invent interstellar travel by themselves. Therefore the race got access to technology it wasn't ready for and became a threat to . . .everything. You could potentially say the same about humans, but no, we didn't launch THAT big a war. The Krogan were actually defeated through the genophage, were they not? They tried to make "everyone" extinct, and instead they got a taste of their own medicine, so to speak. I don't think that the eventual victory of the Salarians & co should become undone, not completely, because we know that Krogan will be Krogan and as a race is probably still "too young" for most of the things they've stumbled across in the universe. If they were to be left alone, left without alien technology on their home world, then sure. Give them the cure. The new generations deserve to thrive and grow, but not at the expense of everyone else. I'm pretty sure they'd choose isolation over the genophage.

[Irenie]

I've never liked the way the Quarians reacted to the Geth gaining sentience. I've yet to have anyone give me a good enough reason to change my stance. They should've given them rights, released them from servitude and attempted to coexist. Or if that wouldn't work for whatever reason, why couldn't they let the Geth go off on their own? I don't think the Geth would just attack them, unprovoked. The Quarians gave them life, after all. So what made the Quarians assume this? Did they just panic? Did they just not want to deal with it and reached for the quickest solution? Or were they really just trying to cover up their mistake? I'm not really sure I understand their thought process. Saying that, neither do I condone the Geth nearly wiping out the Quarians. At all.
Of course, attacking any ship that ventured into Geth space is wrong, no doubt about that. Although ideally I'd like to know the circumstances surrounding these attacks, and the Geth's reasoning.
I'm not saying the Geth are totally innocent in all this, they aren't. You'll be hard pressed to find any conflict where one side is clean after all. But in my opinion; there is a set of scales and it's tipping in the Geth's favour.
However I do pity the Quarian losing their home planet, and the Morning War is not the fault of any living Quarian (and they've been fed hate filled propaganda for centuries). So, I'd try to broker peace. But If that didn't work, I'd mumble something rude under my breath and side with the Geth. But I don't think it'll come to that (famous last words, I know).


Krogan/Salarian situation is one I struggle with. As soon as I think I've made up my mind, I un-make it again. My gut reaction is to want to cure the Genophage, but alot of what Mordin says makes sense. As awful as it is, it was neccessary. And when you consider the alternatives, it doesn't seem so abhorrent.
I suppose if the Krogan continue along their current path, and Wrex manages to unite them then it should be undone, or at least reduce it's effect (say 100 in 1,000) and we'll see how it goes. But that is a long term plan. And I don't think the Reapers would like it.
The fault ultimately lies with the Council races for uplifting them when they were not ready, treating the Krogan as a tool to be used and being quite short-sighted. Perhaps if Aesop had been a member, things would have been different. But he wasn't. So again: peace, or if I absolutely had to...flip a coin?

[Medhia Nox]

If I were Wrex... I would have totally made friends with the Rachni queen... then, in my secret bunker on Mount Awsomearmyofdestruction - I would plot the total destruction of the Council races once and for all.

[BlueMagitek]

Or, here's an idea, move the Krogan to a less hostile planet.

Their birth rates made sense in their native environment, but when they're stuck with such a slow birthrate, how can they be expected to grow? ~_~

[Adanu]

DJBare wrote...

Adanu wrote...

The geth are not sentient. They give the appearance of being sentient via very advanced VI use. They are, however, very intelligent and perceptive and self aware.

It'd be like called Skynet from terminator sentient because it became self aware.

How would you describe Commander Data from Star Trek TNG.

Simulated sentience. The technology as far as I could ever tell might be advanced enough to be considered a life form... but we don't know enough about the inner workings. The Geth, however, are just collective VIs.

[SirCrimz]

I believe the quarians were right to attempt to destroy their creations. Why? Because I'm sure as hell most of you would do the same if you understood the implications of a machine having the capability of killing your family and friends. Creating the geth was a mistake and the quarians paid for it, but they weren't wrong by trying to destroy what they created to protect their people. At the time Quarians were not aware of them having any kind of sense of morality. But now that the remnants of the Mourning War have settled and with the help of Commander Shepard's and Tali's  new understanding of the geth, it would be in the Quarian's and Geth's interest to establish peace. Giving the Quarian's their homeworld back and living peace with the Geth. All in all, I think it was a very costly, but understandable misunderstanding.

And for those of you who say that you don't think the Geth would've retaliated aggressively after becoming more aware of their existence, that's taking a huge chance. If the Quarians left the Geth alone there was a possibility of the Geth attacking their family and friends. I don't think the Quarians wanted to take that chance.

Concerning the Genophage, I don't think it was wrong for them to create the disease to end the rebellions; however, I do think it was wrong for them to keep the Genophage even after the Rebellions ended. They should have created a cure when the Krogan did not show any more signs of rebellion. Ending the rebellions with the Genophage saved potentially billions of lives, but should now be cured.

Modifié par SirCrimz, 20 février 2012 - 10:31 .

[Random citizen]

Adanu wrote...

DJBare wrote...

Adanu wrote...

The geth are not sentient. They give the appearance of being sentient via very advanced VI use. They are, however, very intelligent and perceptive and self aware.

It'd be like called Skynet from terminator sentient because it became self aware.

How would you describe Commander Data from Star Trek TNG.

Simulated sentience. The technology as far as I could ever tell might be advanced enough to be considered a life form... but we don't know enough about the inner workings. The Geth, however, are just collective VIs.

It is impossible to know from our perspective. We have no access to the relevant information on the matter.
All we can do is to reference earlier information which consists of data not applicable to the geth or any other sufficiently advanced structures. Its kinda like asking what kind of human or earthling a Hanar is. It might seem like a jellyfish, but it is far from it.

Sentience in organic life might be very different or very similar to that of what the Geth experience.

Think of it this way. Human sentience (ability to feel and perceive ) is "bright blue". Dogs have "greenish blue" and Chimps has a "purple blue". A vacuum cleaner has no colour. A geth might have "Bright yellow" or just a very dark blue.

Modifié par Random citizen, 20 février 2012 - 10:35 .