268 réponses à ce sujet

[Scouren]

Stupid quarians, they should have used gas chambers. Tsk tsk.

[papapudding]

Scouren wrote...

Stupid quarians, they should have used gas chambers. Tsk tsk.

Sooooo politically incorrect... Me gusta.

[Phategod1]

Here's Is my baseline argument for the Geth. Many people say that the geth are not a race and not sentient, but are simply examples of faulty programming. Seeing as how they are man made, do not have a soul. Well for anyone believing this let me ask you: Where exactly is your soul? How do you get a soul? and who grants you your soul? If you believe in a God or some sort of divinity whose to say God could not grant an inanimate object a soul, and at that point if an object or has a soul and enough sentient and self awareness to know it wants to live free, does it, or have they not earned civil rights.

If you agree with me that The Geth at any point should have been given civil rights off the simple basis that they are sentient beings, then they are in the right to defend themselves which (with the exception of heretics) are the only thing they are truly guilty of. If we're to believe Legion the Geth are sitting on the Quarian home world waiting on the D-bags to come back give a simple apology and then they can all hold hands and sing cumbaya and say bah weep granah weep nini bong.

[incinerator950]

Black Ice mixed with perpetual napalm.

[Sweawm]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Sweawm wrote...

Why do people think the Geth have the moral high ground? Really, they are both on equal footing.

The Geth just don't restrict their attacks to Quarians, but attack anything that enters their space; on purpose or simply by accident. Some Geth joined the Reapers for crying out loud and they couldn't see how obviously the Reapers despised them.
The Geth are simply also in the wrong and you can't expect better from either faction. If you found out if some Jet Fighters (For the lack of a better example) had gained sentience, would you be frightened of the implications? You must know that sentient beings are capable of making their own choices and therefore uncontrollable, therefore you do have a reason to fear them.

Especially with those machines being military units (Based on everything I can find on the Morning War, there were large amounts of Geth designed for military purposes), would you be afraid of them? Of course you would try and shut them down! Everything from a toaster to a bipedal combat robot has a combined conscious which may just one day decide that it has no purpose or use for you. I firmly agree that organic beings have the right to be very afraid of the Geth, and the Quarians were right at the start to curb the Geth network before it grew out of control.

Before you say: "The Geth would of never attacked if Organics never targeted them to begin with", you forget how much the Geth adhere to logic; which is both their major flaw and the reason why they can never co-exist with organics. Imagine a nice little Paragon Mass Effect universe where the Quarians never attacked the Geth for rising to sentience and the Geth continued to be obedient. Now imagine what would happen when the Reapers show up. The Heretics would rise once more and simply carry out the Morning War; except this time fighting for the Reapers. With no distinction between normal Geth and Heretics, the Quarians would have had to destroy all the Geth anyway.

Both sides crimes cancel each other out, and there really is none here with the moral high ground.

Steve the geth isn't attacking anyone. The heretics are the ones killing people, even after the war ended. In fact, Steve the geth and his friends are preserving Rannoch for the quarians inevitable return.

And the geth weren't initially designed as instruments of war, they were servants ad hard labor. They (as said in the codex) adapt and create parts for themselves to fit differing needs. 

The quarians were wrong in their attempted and (As far as we know) un-provoked genocide. The geth were never inherently hostile, but they sure as hell will retaliate when they are being wiped out. Admiral Koris says something similar to this.

Steve? That really cracked me up. ("This 'thing' is called.... Steve")

Back on the serious arguement, the isolationist policy with exterminating everything they came into contact with was actually before they met the Reapers. The Geth attacked any attempt at contact (The Geth were perfectly capable of understanding whatever transmissions these contacts where sending, they just didn't want to hear) with the Council races and basically wiped out anyone who crossed into the Veil.

With preserving Rannoch; its kind of a creepy thing. They have been preserving that one world for so long, keeping it perfect, neat and tidy, because it means something to them. Problem is that the Geth have no use for it, and the only excuse why they keep preserving it is that they are hoping for a peace that will never happen (Perhaps, Commander Shepard will have something to say about that, but what if Shepard never came along and fate just happened to cross paths here? The Geth would simply be trimming hedges till the Quarians died out in space, because the Geth certainly wern't willing to go out and attempt diplomatic communication.)

Its basically what keeps them going. Hoping for a past (I always got the feeling that the Geth missed or just didn't know what else to do without their Quarian masters. You can see it in how Legion refers to them as 'Creator') that left, and now all they do is increasing the level at which they can repeat the same task over and over, except more effeciently. With creating their Dyson Sphere, they are simply increasing the effeciency rate which they form Consensus, what next after that? They will go and find another way which they can form an even greater Consensus so that they can envision the next future... and the next... Technology just dosn't go in a straight line, it is also infiniate and has no end.

Unprovoked? In Mass Effect 1, Tali tells Shepard that the Quarians were "Forced into war with the Geth". It could just be dismissed as simply an overstatement from one's hevily biased opinion, but you could also see what could of possibly started it. One group of Quarians that feared the Geth, so they decided to shut down their units (This group maybe being either a majority or a minority, but neverless large enough that they could remove a large portion of the Geth's mobile platforms).
The Geth saw this as an attack possibly threating their existance and then responded by wiping out the Quarians; including the other population which didn't fear the Geth or simply had no opinion to it. The Geth destroyed anything that could be a threat to them, and regreted it afterward.

There. Techically, the Geth are most in the wrong for attacking those who had nothing to do with the attacks on the Geth, but were a threat to them neverless and then exiling the remnents to a painful death in space for centuries. They can't really be blamed for the lack of diplomacy afterward, because they possibly lacked the skills to do so successfully anyway.

Hopefully, in Mass Effect 3, we learn that it was all a misunderstanding caused by Soverign's manipulation (It's hinted that the Reapers set off the Rachni wars, why not the Morning War? The Quarians created a new type of machine that was a true threat to the Reapers, why wouldn't the Reapers intervene and take control of the Geth for themselves?)
and everyone can get over it. HAPPY ENDING 

[KotorEffect3]

Funny how the geth/quarian thing is more controversial than curing the genophage but then again everybody knows that Krogan are awesome.

[incinerator950]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Funny how the geth/quarian thing is more controversial than curing the genophage but then again everybody knows that Krogan are awesome.

It's a matter of convienance and who they like more. 

[ElementL09]

I want the Quarians to make peace with the Geth, this could mean the geth have a higher influence ( like a political role) in making decesions that effect Geth and Quarians. The Quarians were wrong to have tried to eradicate the Geth.

[incinerator950]

@Sweawm

While I wouldn't deny the Geth attacking everything within their borders, that's basically most of what you hear from the Quarians, mainly Tali. Even though Tali flat out said in ME 1 that the Quarians sent a call throughout their territory to dismantle their Geth, before the Geth eventually learned about revolution, and it can be pretty obvious that the Quarians fire first. Nothing excuses Genocide, but what happened was the fault of the Quarians.  Do recall that the Legion and normal Geth concept probably came into play like the Collectors, and thus Bioware threw the Dragons Teeth rigged freighter in for ME 1 as an implied do not enter sign. 

Pretty sure I listened to Tali enough in ME 1 that she didn't say that the Quarians had to defend themselve, it sounded more like her justifying their failure. Legion practically states in ME 2 that whenever the Quarians believed they could have victory, they have attacked 100% of the time. Which basically states that something has been happening besides these strike ops into Geth Territory.

Legion also explains that the closest analogue to human terms for holding Rannoch would be a Cemetery.  Long story short, you don't apologize for winning a war. 

Regardless, the Quarian and Geth situation is a pity fest based on a races mistake, one that created a synthetic species capable of thought. I'm trying to find if the Council laws on AI research were before or after the Geth, but it sounded like Tali was trying to say the Quarians were not deliberately making AI, implying that those rules have been in place before.

Modifié par incinerator950, 18 février 2012 - 09:44 .

[Nashiktal]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

Quarians: Oh noes! The Geth have realized they are slaves. I know what to do next, let's kill them. This is not unethical at all, right? I'm sure nothing bad will come of it.

The geth were not even A.I. How were the quarians supposed to react to their machines acting buggy? What did you think the first things the quarians did were to take the geth backyard and shoot them?

Pffft.

If my computer started talking the first thing i'd do would be to find out whats wrong, if it keeps acting weird system restore to a previous state. 

If your entire culture relied upon machinery, you too would quickly put a stop to any quirky behavior.

[Phategod1]

As for the Krogan what The Salarian/Turian did was the ultimate D!ck move, they gave the Krogan the means for intergalactic space travel to simply fight a war they could not win, then neutered the whole race to quell the problem they started.The Krogan can live on world that can't be inhabited by any other race So I don't find the need for this senseless neutering.

[VLJ]

Gabey5 wrote...

I don't like the Quarians and will screw them over at the first opportunity

The Genophage will be cured.

if they get out of line again we will end the krogan species

I like your thinking.

If I can, I'd have the Geth fight the Quarians then once that war is over, annihilate the successor (most likely the geth)

HUMAN SUPERIORITY!

[Nashiktal]

Phategod1 wrote...

As for the Krogan what The Salarian/Turian did was the ultimate D!ck move, they gave the Krogan the means for intergalactic space travel to simply fight a war they could not win, then neutered the whole race to quell the problem they started.The Krogan can live on world that can't be inhabited by any other race So I don't find the need for this senseless neutering.

The krogan can live on worlds others cant, but they prefer the ones that are more pleasant than that. The krogan, if left with an unchecked population growth, will simply repeat their old mistakes. 

As much change as wrex (or no change if wrex is dead) might have made, it is not nearly enough time to impliment a strong enough impact on krogan culture to curtail their more destructive habits. If you would recall, the krogan kept demanding more and more worlds, before they started taking their own which caused the krogan rebellion.

[incinerator950]

Nashiktal wrote...

izmirtheastarach wrote...

Quarians: Oh noes! The Geth have realized they are slaves. I know what to do next, let's kill them. This is not unethical at all, right? I'm sure nothing bad will come of it.

The geth were not even A.I. How were the quarians supposed to react to their machines acting buggy? What did you think the first things the quarians did were to take the geth backyard and shoot them?

Pffft.

If my computer started talking the first thing i'd do would be to find out whats wrong, if it keeps acting weird system restore to a previous state. 

If your entire culture relied upon machinery, you too would quickly put a stop to any quirky behavior.

I vaguely recall the same thing happening to Gnomes or Dwarves in a DnD magazine.  Long story short, the Dwarves gave their constructs rights and it turned out for both races benefits.  

Also, it's harder to do that when your machine is asking if its alive, if it has a soul.  The problem with the Quarians is they allowed themselves to push their machinery to do their lives.  Like the Eldar becoming engrossed so badly in their ways that a Warp God formed and killed off the majority of their race.

[SirDoctorofTARDIS]

With the Genophage I'd trust Wrex with a cure but not Wreav so it depends on the import and If I can't make Peace between Geth and Quarians then I'm choosing the Geth.

[DJStarstryker]

I don't think the genophage should be cured. The krogan are too warlike. In nature, populations of everything need balance. If you look at an animal species that has been introduced to an environment where it has no predators, it can quickly become an invasive species. It decimates the population of the other animals there and there's nothing to prevent that invasive species from breeding too much.

The krogans are the same way. With their warlike nature, they will easily just keep breeding and destroy other races by fighting them. And even if they don't fight them, they may make too many krogan and invade others' planets just to find space for them to live and food for them to eat thanks to their high birth rates.

I love the krogans, don't get me wrong. But once they got off of their planet, they had nothing to keep them in check anymore. Before, they probably kept themselves in check by fighting amongst each other.

As for quarians vs geth, I feel like I'm mostly on a neutral stance. Both sides have done wrongs to each other. It would be nice if they could sign a treaty and stop fighting. Ultimately, I don't see what's wrong with both existing.

[Nashiktal]

incinerator950 wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

izmirtheastarach wrote...

Quarians: Oh noes! The Geth have realized they are slaves. I know what to do next, let's kill them. This is not unethical at all, right? I'm sure nothing bad will come of it.

The geth were not even A.I. How were the quarians supposed to react to their machines acting buggy? What did you think the first things the quarians did were to take the geth backyard and shoot them?

Pffft.

If my computer started talking the first thing i'd do would be to find out whats wrong, if it keeps acting weird system restore to a previous state. 

If your entire culture relied upon machinery, you too would quickly put a stop to any quirky behavior.

I vaguely recall the same thing happening to Gnomes or Dwarves in a DnD magazine.  Long story short, the Dwarves gave their constructs rights and it turned out for both races benefits.  

Also, it's harder to do that when your machine is asking if its alive, if it has a soul.  The problem with the Quarians is they allowed themselves to push their machinery to do their lives.  Like the Eldar becoming engrossed so badly in their ways that a Warp God formed and killed off the majority of their race.

Are you seriously comparing the eldar's morbidly self destructive decadent suicide (powered by psychic warp artificially given to them by their creators) to the quarians supplementing their society with synthetic machinery?

If anything the eldar are the warhammer universes geth.

The quarians relied heavily on the geth to compete with the other races (mainly with military and industry). They weren't having orgies and feeding chaos with their combined psychic energy.

While exploring the mass effect universe we have already discovered that V.I's can imitate sapient qualities when their systems are infected with a virus. V.I.'s are not AI, they cannot think and are definitely not sapient. Why would the quarians assume as such for the geth? For all they knew they had a massive infection on their hands, not a budding new species.

[incinerator950]

Nashiktal wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

izmirtheastarach wrote...

Quarians: Oh noes! The Geth have realized they are slaves. I know what to do next, let's kill them. This is not unethical at all, right? I'm sure nothing bad will come of it.

The geth were not even A.I. How were the quarians supposed to react to their machines acting buggy? What did you think the first things the quarians did were to take the geth backyard and shoot them?

Pffft.

If my computer started talking the first thing i'd do would be to find out whats wrong, if it keeps acting weird system restore to a previous state. 

If your entire culture relied upon machinery, you too would quickly put a stop to any quirky behavior.

I vaguely recall the same thing happening to Gnomes or Dwarves in a DnD magazine.  Long story short, the Dwarves gave their constructs rights and it turned out for both races benefits.  

Also, it's harder to do that when your machine is asking if its alive, if it has a soul.  The problem with the Quarians is they allowed themselves to push their machinery to do their lives.  Like the Eldar becoming engrossed so badly in their ways that a Warp God formed and killed off the majority of their race.

Are you seriously comparing the eldar's morbidly self destructive decadent suicide (powered by psychic warp artificially given to them by their creators) to the quarians supplementing their society with synthetic machinery?

If anything the eldar are the warhammer universes geth.

The quarians relied heavily on the geth to compete with the other races (mainly with military and industry). They weren't having orgies and feeding chaos with their combined psychic energy.

While exploring the mass effect universe we have already discovered that V.I's can imitate sapient qualities when their systems are infected with a virus. V.I.'s are not AI, they cannot think and are definitely not sapient. Why would the quarians assume as such for the geth? For all they knew they had a massive infection on their hands, not a budding new species.

I would not even place the Eldar as the Geth.  They're the result of their own actions, not the other way.  The relation was put there because it was their own fault for destroying themselves. 

The VI's we've seen from Luna (AI attempt more or less) and the infected station show programming errors inflicted by a malfunction creating a virus (ME 2).  The Geth were intentionally modified to become increasingly intelligent, and it escalated from there when the Quarians became scared when they started questioning their existence.  

Reminds me of the SG-1 Episode with the fat bald guy imprint implanted into their brains. 

[Goddy10]

I reckon the Quarians reaction to the Geths self awareness was a massive overreaction. They panicked and set about eradicating them when they could've just left the Geth to their own devices on some remote world and be done with it. The Quarians assumed nobody would claim genocide because they were talking about Synthetics, but the very moment that Geth started questioning its master was the moment it became a matter of genocide.

As for the genophage, I'm pretty torn down the middle; what was done to the Krogan was monstrous, but it was obvious that they had become egomaniacal and power hungry when they annexed that Asarian World without provocation. I believe the Salarians were simply overly reckless when developing the genophage.

[Nashiktal]

incinerator950 wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

izmirtheastarach wrote...

Quarians: Oh noes! The Geth have realized they are slaves. I know what to do next, let's kill them. This is not unethical at all, right? I'm sure nothing bad will come of it.

The geth were not even A.I. How were the quarians supposed to react to their machines acting buggy? What did you think the first things the quarians did were to take the geth backyard and shoot them?

Pffft.

If my computer started talking the first thing i'd do would be to find out whats wrong, if it keeps acting weird system restore to a previous state. 

If your entire culture relied upon machinery, you too would quickly put a stop to any quirky behavior.

I vaguely recall the same thing happening to Gnomes or Dwarves in a DnD magazine.  Long story short, the Dwarves gave their constructs rights and it turned out for both races benefits.  

Also, it's harder to do that when your machine is asking if its alive, if it has a soul.  The problem with the Quarians is they allowed themselves to push their machinery to do their lives.  Like the Eldar becoming engrossed so badly in their ways that a Warp God formed and killed off the majority of their race.

Are you seriously comparing the eldar's morbidly self destructive decadent suicide (powered by psychic warp artificially given to them by their creators) to the quarians supplementing their society with synthetic machinery?

If anything the eldar are the warhammer universes geth.

The quarians relied heavily on the geth to compete with the other races (mainly with military and industry). They weren't having orgies and feeding chaos with their combined psychic energy.

While exploring the mass effect universe we have already discovered that V.I's can imitate sapient qualities when their systems are infected with a virus. V.I.'s are not AI, they cannot think and are definitely not sapient. Why would the quarians assume as such for the geth? For all they knew they had a massive infection on their hands, not a budding new species.

I would not even place the Eldar as the Geth.  They're the result of their own actions, not the other way.  The relation was put there because it was their own fault for destroying themselves. 

The VI's we've seen from Luna (AI attempt more or less) and the infected station show programming errors inflicted by a malfunction creating a virus (ME 2).  The Geth were intentionally modified to become increasingly intelligent, and it escalated from there when the Quarians became scared when they started questioning their existence.  

Reminds me of the SG-1 Episode with the fat bald guy imprint implanted into their brains. 

You are not getting it though. As efficient as the quarians were making the geth, they did indeed made sure they never went too far. The geth were not A.I., they were something entirely different. Which is why the quarians were so surprised to begin with.

The quarians simply wanted to fix the malfunction in the normal programming of the geth. They didn't start gunning down the geth and laugh maniaclly as some seem to think. Its as simple as shutting them down.


The geth certainly showed they were more than a malfunction when they slaughtered countless innocents far past the point of self defence, but hey the family that used to live in that suberb was trying to kill them right? That man who the general store was such an evil person for wanting to "kill" his computer. The marine on the field with a malfunctioning weapon was so horrible for following safety standards and disabling a dangerous piece of equipment.

Yes the quarians so deserved their fate as a whole. The geth were in the right to defend themselves, but even they acknowledge their mistakes.

[Han Shot First]

Sweawm wrote...

Why do people think the Geth have the moral high ground? Really, they are both on equal footing.

The Geth were attacked without provocation and were simply defending themselves. They would have done what any organic species would have done if threatened with extinction. They fought to win, and did.

The Quarians are the undisputed 'bad guys' in the Morning War.

That being said, that doesn't mean that the Quarians should continue to suffer. After all the Quarians who caused the Morning War are all long dead, and their species have been punished more than enough for their crimes by losing all the planets they once owned and most of their population along with them. I support a negotioated settlement between the Geth and the Quarians. In fact considering what we are told by Legion it seems like the Quarians could negotiate a peaceful return to Rannoch if only they reached out with an olive branch.

The quarians simply wanted to fix the malfunction in the normal programming of the geth. They didn't start gunning down the geth and laugh maniaclly as some seem to think. Its as simple as shutting them down.

Not quite.

The Quarians panicked when their Geth servants started asking questions like, "Do this unit have a soul?" So it wasn't quite as simple as unplugging the malfunctioning computer. When the Quarians attacked they knew they were trying to destroy beings that had become sapient.

As for the genophage, I'm pretty torn down the middle; what was done to the Krogan was monstrous, but it was obvious that they had become egomaniacal and power hungry when they annexed that Asarian World without provocation. I believe the Salarians were simply overly reckless when developing the genophage.

I have conflicted feelings about the genophage, much like the atomic bombings. While the genophage is clearly a war crime, I also don't think the Salarians had other viable options. It was a necessary evil. They certainly couldn't sit back and allow the aggressive Krogans to keep expanding.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 18 février 2012 - 10:20 .

[Nashiktal]

Goddy10 wrote...

I reckon the Quarians reaction to the Geths self awareness was a massive overreaction. They panicked and set about eradicating them when they could've just left the Geth to their own devices on some remote world and be done with it.

You assume a lot. Who overreacted? How widespread was the decision to shut down the geth? How were the quarians supposed to know the geth were truly sapient? Why was the decision to simply shut them down so bad? Would the geth react as peacfully to being abandoned by their creators? 

Nothing about the situation is simple, and everyone is speaking with hindsight and time to think.

[Nashiktal]

Han Shot First wrote...
. When the Quarians attacked 

Attacked? So they started gunning down the geth wholesale? I don't remember that in the codex.

[Rajorn]

If the Quarians did not shut down the geth, what do you think that the council would have done? They would have ordered the Quarians to disable them, or risk military intervention.

The end result could have been even worse.