268 réponses à ce sujet

[incinerator950]

Nashiktal wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...
. When the Quarians attacked 

Attacked? So they started gunning down the geth wholesale? I don't remember that in the codex.

By this point I wouldn't take the codex with a complete grain of salt.

[GuardianAngel470]

Peaceful solution. If that isn't possible, I'd actually prefer to just let them decide for themselves who survives. It's really not my war.

As for the genophage; it was an immoral act with beneficial consequences. I wouldn't condone doing it again (again) but as it stands I need to see curing it will result in further beneficial consequences before I make my decision. If Wrex can truly pull off what he's trying to do, I'll cure it because I trust Wrex and I trust his motives.

If not, then I'll let it simmer for a while and hold the cure in reserve. The last thing you need in a fight for survival is a loose cannon.

Modifié par GuardianAngel470, 18 février 2012 - 10:21 .

[RVallant]

I'd force a resolution between the Geth and Quairans. Geth will have my aid as I have the feeling the Quarians are the ones who may not play ball.

As for the genophage I'll probably cure it but I'm not too confident the Krogan will learn the lesson the right way. They may just go nuts again anyway.

[Wildecker]

As far as I recall ME1, the Geth assault force commanded by Saren and Sovereign was the first time since the Morning War that Geth left the area of space they claimed as their own. Although they made it pretty clear to any possible organic intruders that they wished to be left ALONE.
The Quarians panicked when their Swiss Army Knifes suddenly asked about spiritual matters. They thought they could simply shut them down and maybe isolate and remove the "problem", but they made a mess of it. The Geth have no need for planets, but they have no interest in becoming tools for the Quarians again.
In a way, the Geth are Hebrews lacking a Moses who could lead them out of Egypt; instead they rose against the Pharaoh and sent him packing ... The Quarians want their homeworld back? I think that can be arranged - in exchange for recognizing Geth independence.
It would be a smart solution to the Geth/Quarian dilemma if we could offer the Geth a place to "live" that they can't leave (making the Quarians feel more secure) while the Quarians can't reach it (calming the Geth survival instinct). The Council recognizing the Geth as a species and granting them some territory that the Quarians agree to stay clear of might work.

The Genophage is a simple and rational Salarian solution to the problem behind the Krogan rebellions: population pressure is driving the Krogans to take new worlds? Remove that pressure, problem solved. If/when the Krogans come up with a better way to control their population than killing each other or the luckless people who are living where the Krogans wish to settle, the Genophage may be readjusted. Wrex has tackled this challenge.

[Phategod1]

DJStarstryker wrote...

I don't think the genophage should be cured. The krogan are too warlike. In nature, populations of everything need balance. If you look at an animal species that has been introduced to an environment where it has no predators, it can quickly become an invasive species. It decimates the population of the other animals there and there's nothing to prevent that invasive species from breeding too much.

The krogans are the same way. With their warlike nature, they will easily just keep breeding and destroy other races by fighting them. And even if they don't fight them, they may make too many krogan and invade others' planets just to find space for them to live and food for them to eat thanks to their high birth rates.

I love the krogans, don't get me wrong. But once they got off of their planet, they had nothing to keep them in check anymore. Before, they probably kept themselves in check by fighting amongst each other.

As for quarians vs geth, I feel like I'm mostly on a neutral stance. Both sides have done wrongs to each other. It would be nice if they could sign a treaty and stop fighting. Ultimately, I don't see what's wrong with both existing.

Don't you think its racist or speciest to say all Krogans are warlike? it's also saying that the Krogan race will never evolve there sensabilities past what they currently are. wrex is proof they can have other ambitions.

Modifié par Phategod1, 18 février 2012 - 10:27 .

[incinerator950]

Phategod1 wrote...

DJStarstryker wrote...

I don't think the genophage should be cured. The krogan are too warlike. In nature, populations of everything need balance. If you look at an animal species that has been introduced to an environment where it has no predators, it can quickly become an invasive species. It decimates the population of the other animals there and there's nothing to prevent that invasive species from breeding too much.

The krogans are the same way. With their warlike nature, they will easily just keep breeding and destroy other races by fighting them. And even if they don't fight them, they may make too many krogan and invade others' planets just to find space for them to live and food for them to eat thanks to their high birth rates.

I love the krogans, don't get me wrong. But once they got off of their planet, they had nothing to keep them in check anymore. Before, they probably kept themselves in check by fighting amongst each other.

As for quarians vs geth, I feel like I'm mostly on a neutral stance. Both sides have done wrongs to each other. It would be nice if they could sign a treaty and stop fighting. Ultimately, I don't see what's wrong with both existing.

Don't you think its racist or speciest to say all Krogans are warlike? it's also saying that the Krogan race will never evolve there sensabilities past what they currently are. wrex is proof they can have other ambitions.

Wrex is old, centuries old and is the exception to Krogan, not the rule.

[Han Shot First]

Nashiktal wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...
. When the Quarians attacked 

Attacked? So they started gunning down the geth wholesale? I don't remember that in the codex.

Does it matter if the Quarians were killing them with firearms or by the push of a button at a computer console? Death is death. The Quarians were attempting to take them offline permanently.

How were the quarians supposed to know the geth were truly sapient?

Once the Geth had asked if they had souls there was no longer any debate about whether or not they were intelligent beings. The ability to think about yourself and your role in the universe in abstract terms is the very definition of sapience. It is what seperates us from the animals. There is no doubt that the Geth had achieved sapience and the Quarians knew it.

It is also why the Quarians panicked and tried to eradicate them.

[Chrisimo]

Geth/Quarians is an easier decision for me, because one side was the clear aggressor and even admits it. The quarians tried to exterminate the Geth and the Geth defended themselves. Many quarians still want to attack the Geth again for their homeworld and some even still want to control them or exterminate them. The Geth however have not shown any desire to wipe out the quarians or other species with the exception of the heretics. So, for me, the quarians were and are wrong in their conduct.

The genophage is a more difficult problem with a lot more variables which we still don't know for sure. Could the rachni be defeated without uplifting the Krogans (unsure)? Could the Krogran expansion outside their own harsh homeworld have been forseen (possibly)? Could the Krogan be stopped without the genophage (again - not sure).
I believe Mordin to be an honest intellectual individual and from him I get the impression that a lot of solutions were proposed but the genophage was deemed the only one that would work. I inclinded to believe him and would therefore judge the genophage a neccessary measure if one's motive was to save the galaxy from being overrun by the Krogran. Now however, things possibly have changed. Curing the genophage still bears the risks of another situation like the one before, but I think that now the species have enough knowledge to prevent that kind of scenario.

[Phategod1]

incinerator950 wrote...

Phategod1 wrote...

DJStarstryker wrote...

I don't think the genophage should be cured. The krogan are too warlike. In nature, populations of everything need balance. If you look at an animal species that has been introduced to an environment where it has no predators, it can quickly become an invasive species. It decimates the population of the other animals there and there's nothing to prevent that invasive species from breeding too much.

The krogans are the same way. With their warlike nature, they will easily just keep breeding and destroy other races by fighting them. And even if they don't fight them, they may make too many krogan and invade others' planets just to find space for them to live and food for them to eat thanks to their high birth rates.

I love the krogans, don't get me wrong. But once they got off of their planet, they had nothing to keep them in check anymore. Before, they probably kept themselves in check by fighting amongst each other.

As for quarians vs geth, I feel like I'm mostly on a neutral stance. Both sides have done wrongs to each other. It would be nice if they could sign a treaty and stop fighting. Ultimately, I don't see what's wrong with both existing.

Don't you think its racist or speciest to say all Krogans are warlike? it's also saying that the Krogan race will never evolve there sensabilities past what they currently are. wrex is proof they can have other ambitions.

Wrex is old, centuries old and is the exception to Krogan, not the rule.

You could have said the same thing about Abraham Lincoln, Robert Kennedy, MLK, and millions of other humans who changed the way other humans think. Wrex acts a catalyst an example to other Krogan to show they can be more then just warriors. Mordin said it himself and Im paraphrasing there is no way to determine were Krogan sensabilites could have gone. 

[Han Shot First]

Chrisimo wrote...

Geth/Quarians is an easier decision for me, because one side was the clear aggressor and even admits it. The quarians tried to exterminate the Geth and the Geth defended themselves. Many quarians still want to attack the Geth again for their homeworld and some even still want to control them or exterminate them. The Geth however have not shown any desire to wipe out the quarians or other species with the exception of the heretics. So, for me, the quarians were and are wrong in their conduct.

The genophage is a more difficult problem with a lot more variables which we still don't know for sure. Could the rachni be defeated without uplifting the Krogans (unsure)? Could the Krogran expansion outside their own harsh homeworld have been forseen (possibly)? Could the Krogan be stopped without the genophage (again - not sure).
I believe Mordin to be an honest intellectual individual and from him I get the impression that a lot of solutions were proposed but the genophage was deemed the only one that would work. I inclinded to believe him and would therefore judge the genophage a neccessary measure if one's motive was to save the galaxy from being overrun by the Krogran. Now however, things possibly have changed. Curing the genophage still bears the risks of another situation like the one before, but I think that now the species have enough knowledge to prevent that kind of scenario.

I agree.

While not mentioned in this thread, I think the extermination of the Rachni also falls into the same same umbrella of discussion as the Genophage and the Morning War. You have one or more species committing xenocide against another, with all the controvery that goes along with it.

Like the genophage however I think the Council species were justified in using extreme measures to combat the Rachni. The Rachni were hyper-aggressive, and would not or could not communicate with the Council species. I don't see how the Council had any other choice but to eradicate them.

That being said, what the Council knew at that time and what Shepard knows are not the same thing. His conversation with a Rachni Queen who was born long after the Rachni Wars, seems to indicate that the cause of the Rachni Wars was Reaper indoctrination. As such, the Rachni were victims rather than villains. Shepard killing a single Rachni Queen with that knowledge is a more monstrous crime than what the Council did during the Rachni Wars. The Council didn't have a choice. Shepard did.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 18 février 2012 - 10:47 .

[Goddy10]

Ryanratto wrote...

If the Quarians did not shut down the geth, what do you think that the council would have done? They would have ordered the Quarians to disable them, or risk military intervention.

The end result could have been even worse.

The Council wouldn't have even needed to know about the Geths existence, and even if they just stumbled across the Geth by accident, the Quarians can claim ignorance by saying they don't even know what the Geth are and if they had cleaned up their tracks well enough, the Council would have been none the wiser.

It's a possibility they would've just assumed the Geth were another undiscovered Prothean creation.

[Chrisimo]

Han Shot First wrote...
I agree.

While not mentioned in this thread, I think the extermination of the Rachni also falls into the same same umbrella of discussion as the Genophage and the Morning War. You have one or more species committing xenocide against another, with all the controvery that goes along with it.

Like the genophage however I think the Council species were justified in using extreme measures to combat the Rachni. The Rachni were hyper-aggressive, and would not or could not communicate with the Council species. I don't see how the Council had any other choice but to eradicate them.

That being said, what the Council knew at that time and what Shepard knows are not the same thing. His conversation with a Rachni Queen who was born long after the Rachni Wars, seems to indicate that the cause of the Rachni Wars was Reaper indoctrination. As such, the Rachni were victims rather than villains. Shepard killing a single Rachni Queen with that knowledge is a more monstrous crime than what the Council did during the Rachni Wars. The Council didn't have a choice. Shepard did.

I'm not sure about the last bit. During the conversation with the Rachni queen she told Shepard about strange songs or something like that. But the Reaper involvement was only made clear in ME2 I think. Also, at the time of the conversation, the Reapers were still mostly a mystery (depending on the order in which Shepard completed the missions, though) and we did not know much about indoctrination. Still, my Shepard always released the queen, because species (like the rachni or krogan) can learn that aggression leads to counter aggression. Both species were defeated and therefore I think there is a chance that they will have learned from that. I know that it is a (big) risk and I'm not sure if I would do it if it was a real situation.
The problem with decisions like this is that you make those decisions mostly for yourself, because you don't want to feel guilty (of genocide) or because you want to see your ideals prevail.

[AlexXIV]

There is not much of a debate. Actually there is on the BSN but not in the game. Save everyone, live happily ever after.

So yeah, help the Geth, help the Quarians, help the Krogans. These things don't exclude each other in the actual game.

[zI Maleficent]

The Quarians created Geth as servants and when they showed signs of becoming sentient, they tried to shut them all down. Geth clearly have the greater justification here, and were merely retalliating for the sake of their own survival. Even though I am a fan of Krogan, the same sentiment holds true in the other conflict. The Salarians did what they could to survive a grisly war, and though they might have overextended, the Krogan instigated the war by invading already inhabited planets. 

Ultimately, both did what they thought necessary to survive. While there is an overhanging sense of moral ambiguity, you should bare in mind that the actions of the Geth and Salarians were prompted by hostile actions from the Quarians and Krogan, respectively.

[AlexXIV]

zI Maleficent wrote...

The Quarians created Geth as servants and when they showed signs of becoming sentient, they tried to shut them all down. Geth clearly have the greater justification here, and were merely retalliating for the sake of their own survival. Even though I am a fan of Krogan, the same sentiment holds true in the other conflict. The Salarians did what they could to survive a grisly war, and though they might have overextended, the Krogan instigated the war by invading already inhabited planets. 

Ultimately, both did what they thought necessary to survive. While there is an overhanging sense of moral ambiguity, you should bare in mind that the actions of the Geth and Salarians were prompted by hostile actions from the Quarians and Krogan, respectively.

I agree on the Quarian/Geth. IF the Geth count as life forms the Quarians basically tried to commit genocide, which resulted into them becomming victim to genocide. There is a sort of poetic justice to it if you ignore the fact that the Geth wiped out 99% of the Quarian population which was maybe a bit of an overreaction considering they should have known that for example children are not really a threat. One need to wonder how 'humane' Geth really are. That they are intelligent is not in question.

However the Krogans are really victims. The Council were the ones who tried to use them as cannonfodder against the Rachni which caused the Krogan problem to begin with. Mind you, the question was using the Krogans or being bullrushed by the Rachni. But still the Council meddled into the evolution of a species and thus are all responsible for what followed. More than the Krogans themselves. Punishing the Krogans for it with the genophage is a real insult to justice no matter from which angle you look at it. It was the easy, comfortable way for the Council to solve the 'problem' and having only one side pay for it. The Krogans.

[Chrisimo]

AlexXIV wrote...

However the Krogans are really victims. The Council were the ones who tried to use them as cannonfodder against the Rachni which caused the Krogan problem to begin with. Mind you, the question was using the Krogans or being bullrushed by the Rachni. But still the Council meddled into the evolution of a species and thus are all responsible for what followed. More than the Krogans themselves. Punishing the Krogans for it with the genophage is a real insult to justice no matter from which angle you look at it. It was the easy, comfortable way for the Council to solve the 'problem' and having only one side pay for it. The Krogans.

It does not really matter if the Krogans are victims or not. The only thing that matters is whether the Krogan would overrun the galaxy without being stopped and if the only way to stop them was the genophage.

If you have to make a choice between letting the Krogans overrun the galaxy or stopping them with the genophage then the only question you should ask is: Which outcome is the better? Because letting the Krogans overrun the galaxy is a bad decision just like sterilizing them with the genophage. But whatever you decide - you are responsible for the consequences that arise.

Modifié par Chrisimo, 18 février 2012 - 11:31 .

[kingsims]

The Krogan will probably get a diplomatic post on the citadel lead by Wrex as representive if they help win the war, alongside the Quarians if they redeem themselves and make peace with the geth. I suspect this will be the paragon ending for the Quarians and the Krogans (they finally get a diplomatic seats in the council and their people are finally respected by other species)

The Geth will return to their veil to complete their ascension into a collective and the Rachni will return to their space to sing songs of peace once again. And thus the galaxy is once again at peace with the I can see this as a paragon ending.

[kingsims]

Double post

Modifié par kingsims, 18 février 2012 - 11:41 .

[jabajack]

On the Geth vs Quarian war both sides have done harm and IF there is only the choice to have one or the other (you could have a shaky alliance between them for the Reaper War) then it would be based on my interactions with each race(and Tali/Legion) as well as who did what to who first.

For the Krogan I really am at a loss and have no idea what i would do. The Krogan would be the best foot troops in the war, but it would take sometime before they had larger numbers (breeding an all that). However since the Krogan have not developed past the locust mentality yet they may be as dangerous as the Reapers at the end of the war.

[Sweawm]

incinerator950 wrote...

@Sweawm

While I wouldn't deny the Geth attacking everything within their borders, that's basically most of what you hear from the Quarians, mainly Tali. Even though Tali flat out said in ME 1 that the Quarians sent a call throughout their territory to dismantle their Geth, before the Geth eventually learned about revolution, and it can be pretty obvious that the Quarians fire first. Nothing excuses Genocide, but what happened was the fault of the Quarians.  Do recall that the Legion and normal Geth concept probably came into play like the Collectors, and thus Bioware threw the Dragons Teeth rigged freighter in for ME 1 as an implied do not enter sign. 

Pretty sure I listened to Tali enough in ME 1 that she didn't say that the Quarians had to defend themselve, it sounded more like her justifying their failure. Legion practically states in ME 2 that whenever the Quarians believed they could have victory, they have attacked 100% of the time. Which basically states that something has been happening besides these strike ops into Geth Territory.

Legion also explains that the closest analogue to human terms for holding Rannoch would be a Cemetery.  Long story short, you don't apologize for winning a war. 

Regardless, the Quarian and Geth situation is a pity fest based on a races mistake, one that created a synthetic species capable of thought. I'm trying to find if the Council laws on AI research were before or after the Geth, but it sounded like Tali was trying to say the Quarians were not deliberately making AI, implying that those rules have been in place before.

You don't just hear about the Geth attacking everything within their borders from the Quarians, you hear that from everybody. Sometimes some miners who are desperete enough to go into the Veil to harvest resources make it back out alive without encountering any Geth, but most of the time they are sent back as Tech-Zombies.

It never specifies who exactely fires first. Would of the other territories heeded the call to exterminate the Geth? The Geth probably uncovered this message themselves and set straight out on exteriminating every organic they could find. What we do know about the Morning War was that it was brutal (Codex Entities speak of large in mass Geth Trooper charges, overwhelming any hostile positons with sheer numbers and no regard for casulties), and that the Geth wiped out everybody they came across.

Exterminating all organic life? Makes them sound like the Reapers, but slightly worse in a way with the fact that they arn't going to do anything useful with our corpses afterward.

The Geth were the fodder of Mass Effect 1; the drones that blindly charged into combat and which we mowed down without a second thought. Sure, there still was a tiny arguement with who's fault it really was, but seeing Geth brutality on Eden Prime, Feros, Noveria and the Citadel made them pretty much the undeniable evil. More than half way into Mass Effect 2, we're expected to think this arguement is balenced.
You asked Legion for the Geth pospective and you got it; from their pospective. A machine has very accurate recollection of events, and the Geth are absloutely correct. Some Quarians started a war and the Geth finished it; brutally.

Here is one of my own theroy: The Geth don't and will never take a step backward. In the Morning War, it would of been incredibly easy for the Geth to simply back down and steal ships in which they could set course away from organic systems. Geth don't need Mass Relays to travel through space because they have all the time in the world. Geth are immortal and were actually in no overall threat to being wiped out ever.
The Geth didn't fight back because they were threatend, but because they didn't want to be slowed down. Really. That's all organics could ever do is slow them down. In case of Reaper invasion, the Geth could simply bury a Datacore with a lengthy power supply underground; cut off from the network and after the Reapers leave the galaxy, they could simply remerge and take over the entire galaxy for 50'000 years until they have the chance to slaughter the Reapers the next time they came through the Citadel Relay. Not even the Reapers could effectivly stop the Geth.
The Geth overall are like angry children really. They hit back and break something, do something stupid and regret it later.

[Dlex859]

They both could just take a clue from BSG and live peacefully together on a new homeworld they could both call their own

[fatmancory]

For the quarians and Geth, i do feel like the quarians wronged the geth, so the geth get my support, thought it will be my goal for peace between the two. As The genophage, it was only a partial mistake, personally i would of raised the percent of births from it, to about 1/100 instead of 1/1000.

[Zkyire]

Legion64 wrote...

Quarians decide to go on a genocide because their slaves were beginning to understand their reasons for their creation? Yeah, the Quarians got what they deserved by getting kicked off their planet. I too will screw over those evil Quarians for such a disgusting act.

Ugh.

They weren't created to be sentient.

Thus they were not slaves.

When the Quarians realised they were becoming sentient; they freaked out.

Also note that it wasn't the entire Quarian species that took part in the attempt to destroy the Geth.

But the entire Geth species did take part in al but exterminating the Quarian species.

While the Quarians have continued the war (stupid but understandable - they want their homeworld back and revenge for the genocide of their species), the Geth are not the good guys in this.

The Geth committed genocide against the Quarians (most of which had nothing to do with the scientists/military that tried to  shut them down).

The Geth have also killed every single diplomatic party that has tried to make contact with them from every single species, not just the Quarians.

So no, the Quarians are not "evil".

Modifié par Zkyire, 18 février 2012 - 03:05 .

[Justicar]

I'll attempt to make peace between Quarians and Geth happen. If that's not possible, bye bye Quarians. Geth are better and have an ideal life. I envy them.

I'm not sure about curing the Genophage. I still haven't decided if it should be cured or not :s