I want a peaceful solution, but I think the Geth have the right to defend themselves. Our brains are pretty amazing but in the end they're all run by chemical and electrical signals. *puts on scifi nerd glasses and pocket protector* To me an AI is no different. Once it becomes sentient and learns self-preservation, it's got the same rights as an organic, as long as it's not hostile due to some weird "organics are imperfect" rationale type of thing.
Your opinion on the Geth v. Quarian debate/Genophage debate
Débuté par
heisman45
, févr. 18 2012 07:37
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#77
Posté 18 février 2012 - 03:07
Zkyire
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fatmancory wrote...
For the quarians and Geth, i do feel like the quarians wronged the geth, so the geth get my support, thought it will be my goal for peace between the two. As The genophage, it was only a partial mistake, personally i would of raised the percent of births from it, to about 1/100 instead of 1/1000.
Quarians wronged the Geth?
Yes some of them attempted genocide of the Geth.
But the Geth actually did commit genocide against the Quarians.
There's a reason attempted murder isn't punished as severely as actual murder.
#78
Posté 18 février 2012 - 03:09
Ryzaki
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Both weren't innocent in this situation, the Quarians tried to exterminate a sentient species and the Geth went way overboard defending themselves.
That said I'll side with the geth. They're a far more useful resource for my Sheps. Plus Quarians struck first.
As for the Krogan...genophage all the way.
That said I'll side with the geth. They're a far more useful resource for my Sheps. Plus Quarians struck first.
As for the Krogan...genophage all the way.
Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 février 2012 - 03:25 .
#79
Posté 18 février 2012 - 03:11
Justicar
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Neither the Geth or Quarians did anything wrong.
The Quarians feared their own future and attacked the Geth, and the Geth retaliated with a stronger force, destroying Quarians and removing them from their homeworld.
That being said, Legion states that the geth are willing to return Rannoch to the Quarians once they settle their dispute.
The Quarians feared their own future and attacked the Geth, and the Geth retaliated with a stronger force, destroying Quarians and removing them from their homeworld.
That being said, Legion states that the geth are willing to return Rannoch to the Quarians once they settle their dispute.
#80
Guest_Cthulhu42_*
Posté 18 février 2012 - 03:15
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I like how people treat entire species like one singular entity that all commits the same acts and thus all deserves the same fate.
It's like saying that when the U.S. took part in the Vietnam War, every American supported it and was responsible for it.
I would think the extremely divided nature of the Admiralty Board would highlight this fact.
It's like saying that when the U.S. took part in the Vietnam War, every American supported it and was responsible for it.
I would think the extremely divided nature of the Admiralty Board would highlight this fact.
#81
Posté 18 février 2012 - 03:21
TheBlackBaron
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Self-preservation is not wrong. Therefore, neither the quarians nor the geth are at fault for the course the Morning War took. That said, if it comes to blows, I'm siding with the quarians.
The genophage was let out of the bag a long time ago, and given the premature uplifting of the Krogan there's really no choice but to continue on with it. Mordin explains as much.
The genophage was let out of the bag a long time ago, and given the premature uplifting of the Krogan there's really no choice but to continue on with it. Mordin explains as much.
Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 18 février 2012 - 03:31 .
#82
Posté 18 février 2012 - 03:25
RazorrX
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IMO the Quarians did nothing wrong. They did not create an AI on purpose, they skirted around it, and when the Geth began to show signs of awareness they tried to shut them down and correct that. The result was the newly awakened Geth responded by killing every quarian who could not make it to a ship to flee. From the Quarian perspective it may have been 10% of all geth who were 'becoming' aware.
Any race would have done the exact same thing - shut them down and try to stop it before it became uncontrollable. 300 years of living aboard ships, losing your immune system basically, being trapped in a environmental suit your whole life, etc. is payment enough. The reason they keep fighting with the geth is exactly what Tali tells you - to recolonize their original home world would allow them to remove the environmental suits in about 60 years or so - to settle a different world would take 600+ years. The quarians are a slowly dying race, if they do not find a home they will eventually die out.
An interesting Parallel is that the Salarians unleashed a race of barbaric, blood thirsty pre space flight warriors on the galaxy in order to eliminate the race of the Rachni. After the Rachni were wiped out (supposedly to the last bug) the Krogan then began to war with the other races, killing millions if not billions in an every expanding quest for domination. The council races then created the Genophage to slow the krogan birth rate to about 1 in a 1000. Now which species created the most damage over time - Krogan or Geth? Yet the Salarians have a seat on the council while the Quarians lost their embassy.
The genophage is the only non genocidal cure for the krogan menace. Krogans are a threat to the galaxy much like the Heretic Geth and thus the Genophage is the only solution that allows them to continue as a species.
Any race would have done the exact same thing - shut them down and try to stop it before it became uncontrollable. 300 years of living aboard ships, losing your immune system basically, being trapped in a environmental suit your whole life, etc. is payment enough. The reason they keep fighting with the geth is exactly what Tali tells you - to recolonize their original home world would allow them to remove the environmental suits in about 60 years or so - to settle a different world would take 600+ years. The quarians are a slowly dying race, if they do not find a home they will eventually die out.
An interesting Parallel is that the Salarians unleashed a race of barbaric, blood thirsty pre space flight warriors on the galaxy in order to eliminate the race of the Rachni. After the Rachni were wiped out (supposedly to the last bug) the Krogan then began to war with the other races, killing millions if not billions in an every expanding quest for domination. The council races then created the Genophage to slow the krogan birth rate to about 1 in a 1000. Now which species created the most damage over time - Krogan or Geth? Yet the Salarians have a seat on the council while the Quarians lost their embassy.
The genophage is the only non genocidal cure for the krogan menace. Krogans are a threat to the galaxy much like the Heretic Geth and thus the Genophage is the only solution that allows them to continue as a species.
#83
Posté 18 février 2012 - 03:32
DJBare
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The geth are neiher good or bad, that would imply emotion, when they attacked the quarians they were acting on their programming, a program created by the quarians, geth were not just created as a work force, they were also created for military use.Zkyire wrote...
While the Quarians have continued the war (stupid but understandable - they want their homeworld back and revenge for the genocide of their species), the Geth are not the good guys in this.
#84
Posté 18 février 2012 - 03:40
eye basher
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The petty problems the races have pale in comparison to the reaper invasion no matter what the races choose to do weather you cure the genophage help the geth or the quarian all this petty problems help the reapers not us they will kill everyone regardless of what they think or want.
#85
Posté 18 février 2012 - 04:00
shannonrw
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I will always side with the geth, especially after reading the spoilers (which I won't post, don't worry). But the fact that the geth pretty much leave everyone alone (the normal ones, anyways) and the quarians *still* try to kill all of them and plan for war even though there's a whole galaxy full of organic planets they could go to instead.
#86
Posté 18 février 2012 - 04:31
0Sion0
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Quarians/Geth: both acted out of self-preservation. While the argument can be made that the Quarians attacked first, they did so out of impulsive, irrational but understandable motivations. They feared their end at the hands of their creations and did what they thought would prevent it... and we all know how that turned out for them. They started and did terrible things - understanding their motives(as much as we can) doesn't change that. But I at least understand it.
The Geth acted out of that same self-preservation, committing terrible deeds during time of war(or so I would imagine) with innocent victims. While many would say they are the innocent ones here - you would have to take into account that they have blood on their hands as well - no matter who put the gun in their hands, they used it. Again, for reasons I understand, but still.... Both are at fault.
Do I think the Geth did 'less wrong'? That their fight for survival was 'more justified' because they were attacked? Sure and I feel like siding them for it - I too think of them as the initial victims here - but not innocent victims.
All things considered, I would opt for some kind of peace. Think it's possible, although that it would probably come from Geth initiative and a select few of the Quarians(thus might either side with none or 'side' with the Geth to see if I can help both out).
The Genophage: Not sure about this one yet, kinda on the fence. Will think about it some more, but am leaning towards curing - so please share your thoughts/visions/ideas. Would like some input from all of you.
The Geth acted out of that same self-preservation, committing terrible deeds during time of war(or so I would imagine) with innocent victims. While many would say they are the innocent ones here - you would have to take into account that they have blood on their hands as well - no matter who put the gun in their hands, they used it. Again, for reasons I understand, but still.... Both are at fault.
Do I think the Geth did 'less wrong'? That their fight for survival was 'more justified' because they were attacked? Sure and I feel like siding them for it - I too think of them as the initial victims here - but not innocent victims.
All things considered, I would opt for some kind of peace. Think it's possible, although that it would probably come from Geth initiative and a select few of the Quarians(thus might either side with none or 'side' with the Geth to see if I can help both out).
The Genophage: Not sure about this one yet, kinda on the fence. Will think about it some more, but am leaning towards curing - so please share your thoughts/visions/ideas. Would like some input from all of you.
Modifié par 0Sion0, 18 février 2012 - 04:39 .
#87
Posté 18 février 2012 - 05:14
Random citizen
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About geth and qurians.
Peace is not only the preferable option, but it also seems like the most viable option.
Although one can never know how it is to be "the other" (like if a machine intelligence can be in any way similar to that of an organic) it is better to treat them with a basic notion of respect then not at all (Just like it would be better for us if an highly advanced silicon based alien race gave showed us respect even though they are not sure if we are truly sentient like them).
When it comes to the Krogans. The genophage was probably a necessary evil at the time of its development. I am sure it can be cured, and should be. But if so, it would be necessary to reach an agreement with the Krogans that so the problems which led to the genophage does not resurface again.
Peace is not only the preferable option, but it also seems like the most viable option.
Although one can never know how it is to be "the other" (like if a machine intelligence can be in any way similar to that of an organic) it is better to treat them with a basic notion of respect then not at all (Just like it would be better for us if an highly advanced silicon based alien race gave showed us respect even though they are not sure if we are truly sentient like them).
When it comes to the Krogans. The genophage was probably a necessary evil at the time of its development. I am sure it can be cured, and should be. But if so, it would be necessary to reach an agreement with the Krogans that so the problems which led to the genophage does not resurface again.
Modifié par Random citizen, 18 février 2012 - 05:15 .
#88
Posté 18 février 2012 - 06:10
Kaiser Arian XVII
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Geth: Fake (AI: not life form), Designed for being servant, dangerous in many ways. So Quarians are favorable, they were not the slavers at the first place and got massacred by Geth for being suspicious about their new program.
But like Koris said, they should compromise a peace pact, and geth should leave Quarian homeworld and be accepted galactically.
About Krogan and I'm not well informed of the history between the conflicting races ... but the blame must be on Krogan and Rachni. Genophage was the right call by Turians and Salarians and done almost well by Mordin, though I think another modification is necessary so the fertility rate become 10x ... it doesn't hurt galaxy.
But like Koris said, they should compromise a peace pact, and geth should leave Quarian homeworld and be accepted galactically.
About Krogan and I'm not well informed of the history between the conflicting races ... but the blame must be on Krogan and Rachni. Genophage was the right call by Turians and Salarians and done almost well by Mordin, though I think another modification is necessary so the fertility rate become 10x ... it doesn't hurt galaxy.
Modifié par Jedi Sentinel Arian, 18 février 2012 - 06:11 .
#89
Posté 18 février 2012 - 06:19
Chrisimo
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Jedi Sentinel Arian wrote...
Geth: Fake (AI: not life form),
What makes something a lifeform for you?
#90
Posté 18 février 2012 - 06:33
Random citizen
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Jedi Sentinel Arian wrote...
Geth: Fake (AI: not life form), Designed for being servant, dangerous in many ways. So Quarians are favorable, they were not the slavers at the first place and got massacred by Geth for being suspicious about their new program.
But like Koris said, they should compromise a peace pact, and geth should leave Quarian homeworld and be accepted galactically.
As I sated, it can not be determined in that way because we have no information or understanding outside our own condition. Even the state our own existential condition is unsure (as of now). From an non-carbon based alien perspective,carbon based life might be as strange or non-comprehending to their analogue for life as the Geth existence are to ours.
Anyway, Mass effect have a clear destinction between what can be called "artifical life" and "artificial simulation of life" its called VI and AI. VIs have no self awareness while AIs have it. A single geth platform is usually a VI, but clustered together they form AIs and as a whole, they are a massive superintelligent AI.
Modifié par Random citizen, 18 février 2012 - 06:38 .
#91
Posté 18 février 2012 - 11:23
zI Maleficent
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@AlexXIV: While it is true that I did not take the Rachni war into account, I also neglected to mention that the Salarians essentially saved the Krogan from themselves. As it stands, the Salarians out of desperation did something to survive a war the Krogan instigated, and it went badly. The worst you could claim of them with clarity is that they over-extended in their retaliation, but even so, they still have moral justification.
As for the Geth/Quarian debate, the Quarians were not simply 'suspicious', (don't sugarcoat it), they attempted to shut them down. The Geth, now being sentient, did what all sentient species do. They defended their right to existense. The sentiment for the Salarians and Geth is mutual, it is clear that both overextended in their retributions, however, their actions were reactive, specifically, in response to unfair and downright contemptible behaviour that threatened their existences.
As for the Geth/Quarian debate, the Quarians were not simply 'suspicious', (don't sugarcoat it), they attempted to shut them down. The Geth, now being sentient, did what all sentient species do. They defended their right to existense. The sentiment for the Salarians and Geth is mutual, it is clear that both overextended in their retributions, however, their actions were reactive, specifically, in response to unfair and downright contemptible behaviour that threatened their existences.
Modifié par zI Maleficent, 18 février 2012 - 11:30 .
#92
Posté 18 février 2012 - 11:32
AlexXIV
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I don't blame them for what they did in the first place. But if you meddle in the culture of a species like that you bear responsibility. And they altered the genophage again after the Krogans adapted. Obviously their only effort to solve the Krogan problem was for them to sterilize them and leave them to extincion. I know even my Shepard did more when she befriended Wrex and Grunt. Now tell me the Council could not have found a way to give the Krogans back what they took from them. They just didn't bother. If the Krogans vanished like the Rachni they probably would have been pretty happy with it.zI Maleficent wrote...
@AlexXIV: While it is true that I did not take the Rachni war into account, I also neglected to mention that the Salarians essentially saved the Krogan from themselves. As it stands, the Salarians out of desperation did something to survive a war the Krogan instigated, and it went badly. The worst you could claim of them with clarity is that they over-extended in their retaliation, but even so, they still have moral justification.
Modifié par AlexXIV, 18 février 2012 - 11:34 .
#93
Posté 18 février 2012 - 11:39
incinerator950
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AlexXIV wrote...
I don't blame them for what they did in the first place. But if you meddle in the culture of a species like that you bear responsibility. And they altered the genophage again after the Krogans adapted. Obviously their only effort to solve the Krogan problem was for them to sterilize them and leave them to extincion. I know even my Shepard did more when she befriended Wrex and Grunt. Now tell me the Council could not have found a way to give the Krogans back what they took from them. They just didn't bother. If the Krogans vanished like the Rachni they probably would have been pretty happy with it.zI Maleficent wrote...
@AlexXIV: While it is true that I did not take the Rachni war into account, I also neglected to mention that the Salarians essentially saved the Krogan from themselves. As it stands, the Salarians out of desperation did something to survive a war the Krogan instigated, and it went badly. The worst you could claim of them with clarity is that they over-extended in their retaliation, but even so, they still have moral justification.
Most Governments tend to be happy when their problems vanish.
#94
Posté 18 février 2012 - 11:40
AlexXIV
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I know. Don't have to like it though.incinerator950 wrote...
AlexXIV wrote...
I don't blame them for what they did in the first place. But if you meddle in the culture of a species like that you bear responsibility. And they altered the genophage again after the Krogans adapted. Obviously their only effort to solve the Krogan problem was for them to sterilize them and leave them to extincion. I know even my Shepard did more when she befriended Wrex and Grunt. Now tell me the Council could not have found a way to give the Krogans back what they took from them. They just didn't bother. If the Krogans vanished like the Rachni they probably would have been pretty happy with it.zI Maleficent wrote...
@AlexXIV: While it is true that I did not take the Rachni war into account, I also neglected to mention that the Salarians essentially saved the Krogan from themselves. As it stands, the Salarians out of desperation did something to survive a war the Krogan instigated, and it went badly. The worst you could claim of them with clarity is that they over-extended in their retaliation, but even so, they still have moral justification.
Most Governments tend to be happy when their problems vanish.
#95
Posté 18 février 2012 - 11:41
zI Maleficent
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And I certainly wasn't denying that the Salarians bear responsibility; what they did by moral standards was horrific. I'm also not debating the degree to which other species involved were responsible for what happened or responsible for a lack of intervention; merely pointing out that the flow of events favours the Salarian's with moral justification. As I said before, they were merely fighting to survive a war their enemy instigated, even if their retaliation was disproportionate.
#96
Posté 18 février 2012 - 11:42
incinerator950
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AlexXIV wrote...
I know. Don't have to like it though.incinerator950 wrote...
AlexXIV wrote...
I don't blame them for what they did in the first place. But if you meddle in the culture of a species like that you bear responsibility. And they altered the genophage again after the Krogans adapted. Obviously their only effort to solve the Krogan problem was for them to sterilize them and leave them to extincion. I know even my Shepard did more when she befriended Wrex and Grunt. Now tell me the Council could not have found a way to give the Krogans back what they took from them. They just didn't bother. If the Krogans vanished like the Rachni they probably would have been pretty happy with it.zI Maleficent wrote...
@AlexXIV: While it is true that I did not take the Rachni war into account, I also neglected to mention that the Salarians essentially saved the Krogan from themselves. As it stands, the Salarians out of desperation did something to survive a war the Krogan instigated, and it went badly. The worst you could claim of them with clarity is that they over-extended in their retaliation, but even so, they still have moral justification.
Most Governments tend to be happy when their problems vanish.
That's the problem, you don't have to like these situations, you have to accept that they happened and try to correct them. Even Mordin hints at that.
#97
Posté 18 février 2012 - 11:43
AlexXIV
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That's the plan. Aside from fight or die.incinerator950 wrote...
AlexXIV wrote...
I know. Don't have to like it though.incinerator950 wrote...
AlexXIV wrote...
I don't blame them for what they did in the first place. But if you meddle in the culture of a species like that you bear responsibility. And they altered the genophage again after the Krogans adapted. Obviously their only effort to solve the Krogan problem was for them to sterilize them and leave them to extincion. I know even my Shepard did more when she befriended Wrex and Grunt. Now tell me the Council could not have found a way to give the Krogans back what they took from them. They just didn't bother. If the Krogans vanished like the Rachni they probably would have been pretty happy with it.zI Maleficent wrote...
@AlexXIV: While it is true that I did not take the Rachni war into account, I also neglected to mention that the Salarians essentially saved the Krogan from themselves. As it stands, the Salarians out of desperation did something to survive a war the Krogan instigated, and it went badly. The worst you could claim of them with clarity is that they over-extended in their retaliation, but even so, they still have moral justification.
Most Governments tend to be happy when their problems vanish.
That's the problem, you don't have to like these situations, you have to accept that they happened and try to correct them. Even Mordin hints at that.
#98
Posté 18 février 2012 - 11:46
BatmanPWNS
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Geth kill innocents while Quarians only want to harm Geth. Between the two, I'll go with the Quarians.
#99
Posté 18 février 2012 - 11:47
incinerator950
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TheBlackBaron wrote...
Self-preservation is not wrong. Therefore, neither the quarians nor the geth are at fault for the course the Morning War took. That said, if it comes to blows, I'm siding with the quarians.
The genophage was let out of the bag a long time ago, and given the premature uplifting of the Krogan there's really no choice but to continue on with it. Mordin explains as much.
I love your picture.
#100
Posté 18 février 2012 - 11:59
DJBare
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Heretics kill innocents, geth remain behind the veil, the geth have set themselves up as caretakers of the quarian homeworld, as already noted, it's hard to make peace when all quarian contacts lead to attacks 100% of the time.BatmanPWNS wrote...
Geth kill innocents while Quarians only want to harm Geth. Between the two, I'll go with the Quarians.
